3D Thread

**Frank Jr.** · 01-08-2010 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Don Landis

Sorry! Case sensitive typo. It is now fixed. enjoy.

Hint- the best demo is the third one of a projection of a fish in a bowl.

Very Cool! I would have loved to have seen it first hand. Thanks!

**Don Landis** · 01-09-2010 01:00 AM

Spent much time today getting totally confused by all the misinformation at CES on this so called new 3D standard.

As most of you know by now from all the reports, the new 3D is coming at us in two incompatible technologies.
1. Circular Polar format
2. Shutter active format.

There is a third you may have heard about but that is a no glasses monitor. I saw this and it is a prototype in development, very crude, and very poor image quality comparatively speaking.

When I spoke to the Circ Polar people ( at LG ) they said their system will be the standard as it is the traditional system used in the theaters now. Yes, it requires a special monitor.

Then when I asked the same question at DirecTV personnel, as well as a Panasonic rep, the story changed. They said the standard has been decided and it will be active shutter glasses. Also requires a special monitor that includes a sensor that controls the glasses.

The blue ray player just needs to have the latest HDMI to feed the 3D signal to either monitor.

So what's it gonna be? Another fight until one gives up as we had in the previous format wars, betamax VHS, Blu Ray vs HDDVD?

I did go to the 3D for Home consortium booth and asked them if they have selected the active shutter system as was claimed by the DirecTV rep and he said no decision has been made yet. Presently they are neutral.

More trouble for this battle- What about sound?
Get this- the 3D format sound stage will modify the present 7.1 layout from the traditional 2 back, 2 side, and 2 front plus center, plus SW; to a new layout that was suggested as an alternative many years ago but was never adopted. It is two top front. 2 bottome front, center, and 2 rear corner. Plus SW.

What this means is to properly set your HT up for a compatible sound stage between DD5.1, DD7.1, and Dolby PLIIz for 3D programs, you will need an AVR with 9 channels and 9 speakers in the room. UGH! I plan to visit the Dolby booth tomorrow to see what they say. I'll probably get more confused. Home theater is getting as complicated as Health care reform.

**high def mon** · 01-09-2010 02:01 AM

GOOD STUFF, THANKS

**Ilya** · 01-09-2010 12:34 PM

Don, why would you need a standard on the 3D TV type?!! That would be like setting a standard that all HDTVs must be LCD.

We do need a standard on how the 3D image is encoded, how it is stored on Blu-ray and how it is delivered over HDMI.
As for the type of the screen or glasses - let the TV manufacturers experiment as they wish and let the market decide which way is better! It doesn't have to be a single technology.

P.S. Thanks for the video! Pretty cool!

**meStevo** · 01-09-2010 02:48 PM

Yeah, there are issues with 3D Blu-Ray too, from Endgadget:
Blu-ray's 3D spec isn't what it could be -- Engadget

Blu-ray's 3D spec isn't what it could be
By Ben Drawbaugh posted Jan 8th 2010 1:46AM
Feature
While 3D is all the rage at CES this year, we learned today from the BDA that one of the biggest sources of 3D content isn't what it could be. The first thing that could, should, be better is the limited support for frame rates. Movies have been recorded at 24 frames per second for longer than our parents have been alive, and for about the same amount of time we've had to endure frame rate interpolation to make movies play back on our 30Hz TVs -- you know, like 3:2 pull-down. That changed recently with 120hz LCDs and 72Hz plasmas because those numbers share a common denominator with 24 (so the same frame is just shown three or four times). When choosing an 3D HDTV it is important to understand how the TV displays 24 fps 3D content, don't just asume it does it without 3:2 pull down. But honestly the worst part is that some 3D cameras can capture 3D at higher frame rates and even if the director wanted to, the new 3D Blu-ray spec doesn't support it. The other issue we take with the new spec is that contrary to early reports, it is possible to create a 3D Blu-ray Disc that won't play on 2D only players. This next one isn't a big deal, but still disappointing is that even if the creator goes through the trouble to encode the movie in both formats, depending on the HDTV, you may have no choice but to watch it in 3D -- say if you lost your glasses or whatever. Now don't get us wrong we're pretty excited about the new 3D technology, but the way we see it is that anything worth doing, is worth doing right the first time.

I'd previously posted this in one of the other like 6 3D threads currently active on the forums

IMO this shows pretty clearly Sony rushed something through the Blu-Ray partners so they could make a touchdown signal and start cranking out hardware that they can call compliant with a spec.

**Don Landis** · 01-09-2010 07:08 PM

Had some time to spend with some reps who appeared to have the facts on the 3D standard.

Currently the two 3D technologies, circ polarizing and shutter displays have not been standardized. Obviously, the ones supporting shutter hopes that will become the industry standard and vice versa on the polarized system. To answer the question by Illya... IT is NOT the same as your example of picking something like LCD. The reason is that LCD HD sets can display all forms of video signals, while if you purchase polar technology display, and shutter becomes the standard, then you will have to buy all over again. This is more like HDDVD vs Blu Ray than Plasma vs. LCD vs DLP.

As for Blue Ray players, there is a standard now and this is that ANY Blu Ray player that supports HDMI1.4 will be able to play any 3D Bluray and send the dual images to the monitor. If you blu Ray player does not support HDMI 1.4, then it will not be able to send the 3D images to the monitor.

Also, today, a Panasonic rep apologized for the incorrect information presented by DirecTV on Thursday, where they were claiming that the Directv'S 3D system has been selected as the industry standard. It has not. Will it be? They said they hope so and understand that they do not want to have another HDDVD vs Blu Ray war.

It appears to me right now that LG is the only big monitor player still supporting Circ. Polarization. Panasonic is the only company that supports full HD resolution in the shutter mode, i.e. 1080P x 1920 for the left and the right, while the others have half resolution (1080p x 960 ) and make the claim that combined it represents 1080p x 1920. Consequently, the Panasonic 3D image appears more like full Blu Ray quality. Of course that is today and by tomorrow, the others will be getting with the full res spec too. Another reason to wait a bit before jumping on this cutting edge technology.

Panasonic also claims to have the first production model 3D camcorder. While they officially have not announced a price on it yet, one rep said the number $21,000 is being floated around the company. They expect to release this later this year. It will be meant for field production and sport events, but not for movie makers.

I'll be posting some pics and a short video later.

It's up now at this link.

On the sound end, got this from Dolby- Yes, to be accurate, on sound stage, the 3D is using a new Dolby PLIIz and if in the market for a new AVR, you may want to make sure this is included in the model you select. The two top surrounds are positioned to handle a new mix of ambience and is favored for those who aren't able to add 2 back speakers. The system will permit you to wire in such a way to have both 7.1 sound stages for 2D and 3D blu Ray in the 9.1 AVR's In the 7.1 AVR's you'll be able to decide which speaker configuration to select.

**Don Landis** · 01-10-2010 09:16 PM

It appears to me right now that LG is the only big monitor player still supporting Circ. Polarization. Panasonic is the only company that supports full HD resolution in the shutter mode, i.e. 1080P x 1920 for the left and the right, while the others have half resolution (1080p x 960 ) and make the claim that combined it represents 1080p x 1920. Consequently, the Panasonic 3D image appears more like full Blu Ray quality. Of course that is today and by tomorrow, the others will be getting with the full res spec too. Another reason to wait a bit before jumping on this cutting edge technology.

Update and corrections-

Lots less people on the floor today and I got a chance to talk to engineers at the booths.

Corrections- LG is only supporting Circ Polarization in their $10,000 front projector. All their LCD monitors are active shutter.

JVC is the company that is only supporting Polarization in all it's 3D monitors

Went to Sony and got to talk to several 3D and PS3 and Blu Ray engineers-

Sony is also doing a 240 Hz LCD/LED monitor for 3D. It has the same resolution specs as the Panasonic but Panasonic's is Plasma.

Sony claims the PS 3 is currently the only Blu Ray player that is capable of being upgraded to HDMI 1.4 for 3D compatibility. I saw several PS3's running beta firmware that allowed them to play movies and games in 3D. The engineer said they expect the release to be in early summer.

Here is where it gets interesting. Accoring to Sony, the Blu Ray software content will be compatible with both circular polarization and active shutter display technologies. He also qualified that as being bluRay 3D disks from Sony / Universal but would not commit on software content from other studios. So, even though Sony is selling active shutter displays, if you bought a circ Polarization display, the BluRay disks from Sony / Universal will work.

Part of why all this was so confusing is because the reps themselves contradict one another. I had two engineers at JVC who couldn't agree on the compatibilities. This is just one more reason why consumers need to wait for everything to settle before buying this. Too bad but I guess that's how all new technology gets into the market. I'll call it expensive FUD for now.

LG's 3D front Projector:

**dfergie** · 01-15-2010 01:09 PM

This was really cool...Toshiba Motion Control (no remote)(a couple of more shots from Hokie in this post http://www.satelliteguys.us/2067547-post1.html (Hokie's CES brain dump, day 1) )

**toto** · 01-16-2010 11:18 AM

A question for Don; "Panasonic is the only company that supports full HD resolution in the shutter mode, i.e. 1080P x 1920 for the left and the right, while the others have half resolution (1080p x 960 ) and make the claim that combined it represents 1080p x 1920. Consequently, the Panasonic 3D image appears more like full Blu Ray quality" I was led to believe that it was difficult to manufature small form factor pixel on plasma displays. How will Panasonic manufacture a four k plasma display, at a reasonable price, in the sweet spot size from 45" to 60" panel?

**dfergie** · 01-21-2010 02:10 PM

LOS ANGELES: Creating a standard for 3D video is a complicated matter. So says Peter Symes, head of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers. What works in a theater doesn’t necessarily work for TV. 3DTV systems must support multiple delivery channels, multiple coding techniques and multiple display technologies, and everything in the associated workflows.

Source & More:
televisionbroadcast.com