Basically just wanted to get a feel for how you guys think D* and E* will stack up at the end of the year when compared to each other.

Will E* stop the bleeding when it comes to subs?
Will D* actually add any more HD channels that the majority of subs seem to want?
Will E* add the Viacom channels?

How do you think the Tivo deal will play out, and what will the results mean for E*?

Tons off things that could and should happen between now and the end of december.

Thoughts?

Yeah, its a boring day.

be the same as it always is...

both providers will pretty much offer the same channels, same everything...but D* subs will continue to claim unprecidented superiority on the basis of inconsequencial minutae, exaggerated unsubstantiated hype, and sports packages that a majority of people do not care about.

look for a few new channels here and there and not much else.

be the same as it always is...

both providers will pretty much offer the same channels, same everything

look for a few new channels here and there and not much else.


If thats the case, and it stays as is, what about the loss of subs that E* has had lately? There are only so many quarters you can lose that many before it becomes a serious problem. I dont care how big you are or how succesful you have been in the past, no company can coninue to bleed off subs like that. You dont think it will change at all in that case?

Geeez Vamz, go watch a freakin ball game! If everything is so "pretty much the same" how is it that E* is in fact bleeding subs and D* is not. Hell, I don't care one way or the other, I like my sports and that is why I am a D* sub. I don't even think that there is a "war" anymore, everyone should be happy with what they got or switch to what will make them happy.

don't rightly care...if E* starts stagnating and D* picks up any significant momentum, I may well wind up being one of those subs. :D
who knows. right now I couldn't care less.

folks are leaving E* because of D*s proven success with marketing and promotions. simply put, there are more compelling reasons to switch than stay. even if your getting pretty much the same thing wherever you go, many folks think the little perks you get in the interim are nice...

folks are leaving E* because of D*s proven success with marketing and promotions. simply put, there are more compelling reasons to switch than stay. even if your getting pretty much the same thing wherever you go, many folks think the little perks you get in the interim are nice...
Thats pretty accurate. Which is one reason I started the thread. If the trend continues, long term, it will hurt, and channel offerings aside, it wont be the "same" Now I will give you that I dont see anything along these lines happening by years end, perhaps I should rephrase that part of the discussion to think longer term

Who knows, charlie may have an idea to turn the tide when it comes to subs leaving, but he hasnt let on that he does.

. I don't even think that there is a "war" anymore, .
I disagree. I think the "war" is more intense right now for both companies, even if they arent rolling out new channels every week. Maybe not from a customers perspective, but from the people running the companies. Something has to set them apart in someway when all else is pretty much the same.

I disagree. I think the "war" is more intense right now for both companies, even if they arent rolling out new channels every week. Maybe not from a customers perspective, but from the people running the companies. Something has to set them apart in someway when all else is pretty much the same.

While the 'competition' between both companies is still going strong...the war is...well...over...

Like you said, both companies offer pretty much the same...

But lets look at the timeline...

1) E* offers Voom, D* announces a 'business plan'....
2) E* subs watched HD, D* subs watched a business plan. (a few of them watched sports packs)

3) two years later...the 100 channel prophecy is nie...E* has Voom and a few more channels...HD channels on D* come raining from the heavens...

4) OMG!!! THERE IS NO HD ON D*'s NEW CHANNELS!!!!

5) over the next year, more HD goes on those D* channels, E* adds those new channels once there is HD on them. And Voom is gone...sad to say....

6) and now...even according to msmith...they are 'pretty much the same'....


...and fanboys such as 'some people' are all thats left of the old D* religion.

...and anyone who has traced my posting history here in the warzone and beyond, with regards to where the paths of D* and E* would eventually cross, can only acknowledge one thing....

I said it then, clear as day...that the leader in HD has yet to ever be clearly defined and doubtfully ever will. By the time D*'s HD channels mature, E* would already have those channels themselves....

...and they do.

(and lets not cherry pick individual channels please...like msmith said, they are pretty mucht the same...big picture..)

Vampz, I am usining "war" as simply another term for competition, so as I said, IMO, the war is as strong as ever.

I know you like to oversensationalize your statements, even so, some are correct. Others less so.

We both know that number four is incorrect for the VAST majority of what was added. Those that it does cover, are only starting to show HD now (yes, sad), but again, we are talking a handful out of what, 60+?

Second, I know it sounds better to say that E* waited to add those channels until there was "more" HD on them, but according to everything we know that happened over the past year, it doesnt add up. Nice spin though:p

Voom, yeah its gone, oh well.

Yes, they are "pretty much the same" on basic national offerings, I do agree with that. They are also very different. Premiums, sports packs, fees, customer service. All of these areas offer substantial differences between the two.

I also disagree with your statement about "the leader of HD". While who holds that title now is not clear, its hard to convincingly state it had never been clearly defined. Simple fact of the matter is that only fanboys (or people that simply like to argue just to do it....) of either side would say that E* wasnt the leader a few years ago, and D* wasnt the leader until recently based on many factors.

Question, for those that say the "war" is over, what is your reason for saying so.

As I stated earlier, I consider the terms competition and war to be interchangable in this case, and as such the "war" will never be truly over until one quits (HD-DVD vs Blu-ray), or the gap is so large, and its quite clear that one company will not compete in this particular area again.
Vampz, you made a statement that they are different. What makes them different? Its not like we were talking about one company bombing the other here:p.

Just curious

You missed my point completely...remember what i said, BIG picture...

And that Big picture shows one image VERY clearly...that in spite of all the bravado and abuse I've taked from the loud minority around here, it all doesn't matter...

Exactly what I said would happen, DID indeed happen.

Vampz, no one had any illusions that D* would keep the large lead that they held forever, just as no one though E* would a few years ago. I am pretty sure we ALL stated at some point that the playing field would eventually level out when it comes to basic national channels. To focus ONLY on that as you seem to be doing here is missing the "big picture" IMHO. There are many other factors to consider when having a discussion about the future of these companies. Sub losses. Tivo disputes, not adding some OBVIOUS channels that people want (with no real reasons not to that anyone can see). That and the differences in OTHER offerings, equipment, customer service methods, ect...All of this ties into the discussion that I was trying to start, and will have a bearing on the direction of the companies at the end of the year and beyond

Question, for those that say the "war" is over, what is your reason for saying so.

As I stated earlier, I consider the terms competition and war to be interchangable in this case, and as such the "war" will never be truly over until one quits (HD-DVD vs Blu-ray), or the gap is so large, and its quite clear that one company will not compete in this particular area again.
Vampz, you made a statement that they are different. What makes them different? Its not like we were talking about one company bombing the other here:p.

Just curious

When I say "for me the war is over" (and I too interchange war and competition)
I mean that the FULL GO BLOOD BATH is over, the little battles for subs etc. continue. One didn't wipe out the other, they both still exist and compete.

My reasoning that the WAR part is done with is that it seems that the two have clearly defined their paths and that there does not seem to be any earth breaking shocking news that could come from either one of them in the near future. They both pretty much have what is available with a few exceptions and it seems that E* has decided that it is okay to allow D* the sports nuts like myself.

Those of us thatcheck in on these boards have a fairly good grasp on things between the two. Most folks, and when I say most, I am guessing 95% really just see the two as two sat companies that probably have few differences (God knows how many were duped into thinking that E* had the most football the last couple of years, Tiki said so!)

D* in my opinion is doing a far better marketing job. Of course it is easier when you can actually advertise the NFL, MLB etc... when you actually have them.

So, the troops have been sent home. There are still plenty of jabs and skirmishes, but the WAR in my eyes is over.

Thanks J. I now understand your position a little better. Well put:up

While the 'competition' between both companies is still going strong...the war is...well...over...

Like you said, both companies offer pretty much the same...

But lets look at the timeline...

1) E* offers Voom, D* announces a 'business plan'....
2) E* subs watched HD, D* subs watched a business plan. (a few of them watched sports packs)

3) two years later...the 100 channel prophecy is nie...E* has Voom and a few more channels...HD channels on D* come raining from the heavens...

4) OMG!!! THERE IS NO HD ON D*'s NEW CHANNELS!!!!

5) over the next year, more HD goes on those D* channels, E* adds those new channels once there is HD on them. And Voom is gone...sad to say....

6) and now...even according to msmith...they are 'pretty much the same'....


...and fanboys such as 'some people' are all thats left of the old D* religion.

...and anyone who has traced my posting history here in the warzone and beyond, with regards to where the paths of D* and E* would eventually cross, can only acknowledge one thing....

I said it then, clear as day...that the leader in HD has yet to ever be clearly defined and doubtfully ever will. By the time D*'s HD channels mature, E* would already have those channels themselves....

...and they do.

(and lets not cherry pick individual channels please...like msmith said, they are pretty mucht the same...big picture..)

You keep calling others Fanboy.

You are obviously a big E* FANBOY.:what:what

You missed my point completely...remember what i said, BIG picture...

And that Big picture shows one image VERY clearly...that in spite of all the bravado and abuse I've taked from the loud minority around here, it all doesn't matter...

Exactly what I said would happen, DID indeed happen.

I think that what you left out (it is indeed quite important). The HD evolution has obviously worked better for DirecTV as a company than it did for DISH Network.

Here is the real BIG PICTURE. In 2004 (and before) and up to the middle of last year, HDTV sets were still largely a niche (of course not to us enthusiasts :)) - but in the last 18 or so months who has done better at attracting new customers? DirecTV of course. And what have they been advertising and promoting so heavily during that time? HD of course. How many more new net subs has D* gotten over DISH in the last year? That is a 100% reversal over the past couple of years, isn't it?

So, from the perspective of company (as opposed to customer) I say (my opinion) DirecTV is winning the HD war hands down. After all the war is being waged by the companies, isn't it? We talk about it for sure, but we are spectators only. And inside the company, the war is about earnings, profits, reducing churn, netting additional subs every quarter. DirecTV is certainly ahead right now in the HD war.

DirecTV's message has at least been consistent. DISH has been forced to change theirs a few times in the last year haven't they. First they put VOOM in with the other HD channels, then they moved it, then they REMOVED it entirely. All within a years time. They marketed VOOM as special, within 6 months they removed it. They let people piss and moan for 6 months about adding HD before they did. Bad for the base I say.

Watch out Scott, somebody will be calling you a fanboy.

I fully expect it. Name calling always shows a loss of an argument IMHO.

I like the part about the minority of people that pay for sports. The last numbers (from 2 years ago) were that there were 4 million or so NFL ST subs. Obviously, those sports packages drive a good part of their overall sub growth.

I do wish that FiOS would add more sports to its offering though. I have to say that since I got it (on one HDTV only for now) I am impressed with the overall HD offering (102 channels now).

They also have claimed that they will have about 150 HD channels by the end of the year I believe. Unfortunate that it is still not a national offering however.

Both companies lose subscribers, every month... every quarter... every year.... it's just a matter of adding more than you lose that spells success....

E*s problem is marketing. Up until the Turbo HD campaign, they had NONE, besides an occasional flyer mixed in with the junk mail bundle everyone gets in their mailbox once or twice a week. For a while, some of these flyers that WERE being distributed actually LIED about our DVR promotion... saying you could have 4 rooms of DVR for free.... that is a HUGE problem. People don't react too kindly to bait-and-switch tactics.....

They had no TV commercials (except for the occasional commercial that was only broadcast to existing Dish customer's... uhhhh hello wasted money)... and I think I heard ONE radio commercial in the last 2 years, and within 2 weeks, I never heard it again....

They have relied on Sales Partners to do all their marketing in the past... but these little companies (often 1 guy with like 5 people working under him, working out of his house) to do their marketing, and these "companies" don't have the cash flow to do any kind of real advertising. Honestly, ATT is the only reason half of us Techs have a job right now.

I think with some heavy TV exposure, as well as new promotions, E will be doing just fine.... 1 quarter might not be enough time to fully recover and resume their previous growth... but they will recover soon. They need to focus their marketing on HD (of course), but they need to whore up the quality and how much people love our DVRs, hard. That is what really sets us apart from the other's... the quality of our hardware.

correction, curtis...i am in no way, shape, or form a fanboy. in fact I may be the only non-biased one here!

what I am is an emphatic anti-fanboy who can't resist polking holes in emotively inspired, ridiculous fanboy rhetoric. like any bogus claim that D* is a leader in anything but outstanding marteting campaigns and overpriced options. other than that....D* and E*, like msmith said, are pretty much the same...

yes Sco...loud minority...view the polls in you have any questions. I am only refering to the information graciously provided by our peers.

Vampz, again, I said that they are pretty much the same in that they both offer the same basic national HD channels (more or less). I pointed out many times the differences that make them different

yes Sco...loud minority...view the polls in you have any questions. I am only refering to the information graciously provided by our peers.
Didnt he mention actual subs? Seems like that trumps any polls we could put up here. No matter what we say, sub numbers speak louder

That's it you 2... I declare a SLAP FIGHT!

That's it you 2... I declare a SLAP FIGHT!
haha, pretty good post earlier by the way

msmith,

first i'm only talking about national HD channels....and I am only talking about my polls...

couldn't care less about much else anything else people are throwing around to distract from that...

besides last time I checked, 4mm subs out of 17mm subs is still a minority...so don't ask me what that's supposed to mean...

msmith,

first i'm only talking about national HD channels....and I am only talking about my polls...


besides last time I checked, 4mm subs out of 17mm subs is still a minority...so don't ask me what that's supposed to mean...
Focusing only on the national channels and nothing else limits the discussion, and doesnt portray the "big picture" as it relates to THIS discussion IMO.

While it is still less than half, your numbers are slightly flawed. It was around 4 million 2 years ago, according to the numbers I see, D* didnt have 17 million subs then. I also dont know how many subs of these packages there are NOW. Could be less, could be more. My main point was, the polls here arent an accurate indicator of who subs to what.

Also if you want to look at how important the sports packages are to a company, you need to take into account how many subs of each sports package buy any of the others. Is it 50%? 90%? Or somewhere in between? So there could be a higher percentage of subs that are with D* for the sports offerings, or it could very well be at 30% (which is still an impressive number IMHO). In any case, it seems to have a huge impact on the sub base, and their bottom line.

msmith...you KNOW I am not going to take the time to read that nonsense. Here is the big picture:

you are the OP.
you based your post on national HD.
and I agreed with your post, based on national HD.
your post supported my position all along.

end of story...

all this latest litany of nonsense attempts to do is distract from the original discussion which is exactly what I said it is...

sorry if the fanboy constituency can't hande that...but than again, what else is new...

msmith...you KNOW I am not going to take the time to read that nonsense. Here is the big picture:

you are the OP.
you based your post on national HD.
and I agreed with your post, based on national HD.
your post supported my position all along.

end of story...

...
Vampz, perhaps you should reread the OP, I in no way limited or based this discussion on national HD only. In fact, I left it open so that nearly any topic could be covered on how one thinks the companies will be doing at years end, and beyond. So the only thing my post supported you on was the national hd parity. Again, limiting it to that totally limits the discussion and clouds the "big picture" that you wanted everyone to see earlier in the thread

correction, curtis...i am in no way, shape, or form a fanboy. in fact I may be the only non-biased one here!

what I am is an emphatic anti-fanboy who can't resist polking holes in emotively inspired, ridiculous fanboy rhetoric. like any bogus claim that D* is a leader in anything but outstanding marteting campaigns and overpriced options. other than that....D* and E*, like msmith said, are pretty much the same...

Yes you are an anti-D* fanboy.

Making you an E* fanboy.

wrong, curtis...i shoot down E* fanboys too....

your personal biases blind you...

That's it you 2... I declare a SLAP FIGHT!

http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/78/slap.gif

http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/78/slap.gif
Where did you get that one? Funny

yes Sco...loud minority...view the polls in you have any questions. I am only refering to the information graciously provided by our peers.

Maybe the exact opposite of the loud MINORITY that continues to sing the praise of VOOM. That was a small enough minority that DISH cut it loose.

I would venture a guess that of the 250 or so channels that EVERY provider offers, many have far fewer viewers than the NFL channels. And certainly far less revenue to the bottom line.

BTW the polls here are not truly representative of anything. That is the point well documented and established. The choice of responses are generally biased, they are not well thought out in most cases to offer BOTH sides equally, and thus prove nothing IMHO. Anyone here could open a poll and get just about any results they wanted in advance.

wrong, curtis...i shoot down E* fanboys too....

your personal biases blind you...

Does it hurt when you do that? :haha!sadroll:haha!sadroll:haha

nice attempt at a red herring, msmith...

the point sco made had nothing to do with the point I made or the position I took...

I think you don't know what the term big picture means. here is a clue. it does't mean 'out od scope'...:)

yes sco, the voom constituecy is also a loud minority...whats your point?

do me a favor and remind curtis that personal attacks and namecalling are not allowed here, ok? thanks. :)

Wasnt attempting anything vampz. Just pointing out that just because YOU are only focusing on national hd for this thread, it was opened for a variety of topics, points made by other posters included

yes sco, the voom constituecy is also a loud minority...whats your point?

do me a favor and remind curtis that personal attacks and namecalling are not allowed here, ok? thanks. :)

Who called who a fanboy first?

I'm only reacting to your constant personal attacks.

I only made one point. its the attempts to refute my points with irrelevant or unrelated points is what I am talking about. other than that, talk about whatever the heck u want...

Vampz, I hope you didnt take my post to mean you werent welcome to post in this thread. All points are welcome as far as I am concerned

lol...whatever curtis. i've been very cautious NOT to call you anything...so if you feel otherwise? well...that could only be you subconciously acknowleging your own conduct here.

seriously...

Where did you get that one? Funny

A sports oriented message board that I frequent. If you look at the image properties you can see where I got it from.

yes sco, the voom constituecy is also a loud minority...whats your point?

do me a favor and remind curtis that personal attacks and namecalling are not allowed here, ok? thanks. :)

curtis.
personal attacks and namecalling are not allowed here.

that also goes to you vampz - the number one name caller on this site IMHO.

yes sco, the voom constituecy is also a loud minority...whats your point?




No - what is your point to keep bashing sports. Enough people enjoy it and pay for it - the very reason that it is offered.

curtis.
personal attacks and namecalling are not allowed here.

that also goes to you vampz - the number one name caller on this site IMHO.

Sorry, time to use ignore.

i've not called anyone any names Sco. I resent that false accusation...

i've not called anyone any names Sco. I resent that false accusation...

I am not talking about any particular thread, just your overall record. I stand by my statement.

HAGD. I am off to a concert.

yes...i readily acknowlege that in the distant past I have come on rather strong. and I have been dealt with by you and told to cease and desist...which I have, and you should at least acknowledge that and not dredge it up when its convenient. i've been following the rules and I resent you not acknoweging that and accusing me instead. just so we are clear...

besides, in stating that namecalling is not allowed, and then by calling me a namecaller, you were in fact calling me a name. good one...

anyways, enjoy your concert sco...theres nothing else to say here...sorry for the confusion.

clarification: I do not bash sports. I rather enjoy sports. that's an unfair generalization...

Just sports packages.....:p

yes. I think they are a rip-off. at least we made that clear.

very nice topic msmith. you gave the war zone the jolt it needed:D

The war between these two is far from over.
I think E will be able to stop the bleeding by the end of the year as long as they don't fall way behind D. Their latest ad campaign of turbo hd has been pretty good until the other day when I saw F. Caliendo in a turbo hd commercial. I like the guy but not in these commercials.You see the difference between D and E is that D actually hires celebrities to participate in their ads while E hires a guy that imitates celebrities. Real cheap$$$

D will add more HD by the end of the year but I think it won't be much more than what E will have by that time. D needs to add channels like the travel channel and some of the premiums that E has plus some that E will probably not add by the end of the year.Popular channels like comedy central and the less popular G4 would be good additions.

You can look at the tivo deal from many angles. We have all discussed these many scenarios but one way you could look at it is that D and Tivo need and will probably try to come up with a DVR that will rival and maybe surpass the current vip series hurting E badly in the process.I can tell you if it goes down like that and E has nothing that I don't already have from D, that will probably end the long relationship I've had with E.

even though both providers essentially off the same thing, its rather obvious that the main reason subd leave E* is simple. no compelling reason not too. without voom E* lost its unique offering, and slapped a few folks in the face taking it away. traditionally they have always treated their current subs like poop while courting new subs. (just wait...introducing the new 722s, available for new subs only...)

what compelling reason does your average E* sub have to stay with E*, when D* is prepared to give you so much just to switch?

for me its just not worth the hassle right now to switch for only a comparible DVR, roughly the same channels, and a temporary discount...but to others that temporary discount and new DVR just may be enough...

yes. I think they are a rip-off. at least we made that clear.
And I disagree, glad we made that clear also:)

even though both providers essentially off the same thing, its rather obvious that the main reason subd leave E* is simple. no compelling reason not too. without voom E* lost its unique offering, and slapped a few folks in the face taking it away. traditionally they have always treated their current subs like poop while courting new subs. (just wait...introducing the new 722s, available for new subs only...)

.
I wonder how many, outside of the "vocal minority" here:p actually were with E* simply because of voom. Personally, I doubt it was that many, I could be wrong.

I do agree with you about treating current subs like crap when it come to promotions. Thats not unique to E*, most of them act the same way, with some exceptions here or there.

very nice topic msmith. you gave the war zone the jolt it needed:D
.
Thanks! I do try my best:D

I know many folks were PO'd in the way they removed it...and they were quite vocal about it...

I know many folks were PO'd in the way they removed it...and they were quite vocal about it...
Yeah there were a few on here, I agree, but alot of the comments were from the same people. Same as the Tivo case against E*, alot of the same posters posting the same thing over and over (you know who I am talking about). Personally, I dont know a single person that has E* HD that was very upset about it. No moreso than they would have been about any other channel being removed anyway.

How about a new twist?? Both Dish and Direct Tv merge into a new company called NUTS TO YOU our new slogan

WE OVER CHARGE EVERYONE

DirectDishTV: the war in HD is over. We beat ourselves!

DirectDishTV: the war in HD is over. We beat ourselves!

i respect your opinion my friend but i don't agree with it. we need the competition to continue for you and i to benefit from this so called war. i don't think it's over. one will always want more hd than the other and both will want to produce the best dvr possible for HD. the 722s will be an incredible piece of equipment. this will push D to produce something better than what we have now. I hope for the war to never end between these two which is why i hope they never merge.

i respect your opinion my friend but i don't agree with it. we need the competition to continue for you and i to benefit from this so called war. i don't think it's over. one will always want more hd than the other and both will want to produce the best dvr possible for HD. the 722s will be an incredible piece of equipment. this will push D to produce something better than what we have now. I hope for the war to never end between these two which is why i hope they never merge.
You and me both

i respect your opinion my friend but i don't agree with it. we need the competition to continue for you and i to benefit from this so called war. i don't think it's over. one will always want more hd than the other and both will want to produce the best dvr possible for HD. the 722s will be an incredible piece of equipment. this will push D to produce something better than what we have now. I hope for the war to never end between these two which is why i hope they never merge.

It was a joke...with a very bad double entendre, but a joke none the less... ;)

I've stated before that would only support a partial merger that separated the delivery of HD-lil via satellite from the rest of the business, and merged those entities into a single business that provided HD-lil service to D* and E* for a nominal fee that can be passed on to the consumer, much like a utility. Given that delivery of locals is federally mandated, this makes sense to me. Sure it could cause the cost of locals to rise a bit (possibly) since my hypothesized company will be relying soley on HD-lil to function and turn a profit, but in the end that would free up D* and E* to focus more on national channels and whatever else the wished to provide...and the proposed company would potential increase HD-lil coverage across the country because...well, not only would they have doubled resources combining D* and E* HD-lil capability, but since HD-lil coverage would be the profit center and not just a value-add, it would get far more attention...

Anyway, thats the way I see it in my own utopian way of thinking on the topic. :D

I wonder how many, outside of the "vocal minority" here:p actually were with E* simply because of voom. Personally, I doubt it was that many, I could be wrong.



You are certainly not wrong.

Isn't it obvious that DISH believes that the number wasn't very many? - after all they dropped it didn't they? That action speaks volumes doesn't it? Add in the simple fact that no other pay provider in the U.S. carries any VOOM channels now (except for their own parent company CABLEVISION) - what other conclusion can be reached?

And I clearly acknowledge that there were people that truly loved some or all of the VOOM channels. Unfortunately, not enough for continued coverage in a time of limited bandwidth it seems.

Sco, I am sure you're smarter than that. we both know that the reason E* dropped voom and their 'excuse' for dropping voom are too different things. basically, charlie played 'legal chicken' again with one if his providers and as usual, channels disappear when that happens. and in typical charlie fashion, he blames the subs just to save face...

the irony here is that this is one of charlies most obvious deceptions to date, yet its the only move by charlie i've ever seen where you credit him with any integrity at all! I wonder why that is...lol...unbelievable...:)

Sco, I am sure you're smarter than that. we both know that the reason E* dropped voom and their 'excuse' for dropping voom are too different things. basically, charlie played 'legal chicken' again with one if his providers and as usual, channels disappear when that happens. and in typical charlie fashion, he blames the subs just to save face...


You KNOW that he didnt drop it because of lack of interest?

Vampz, the difference I see in dropping voom and some of these other drops is when those were dropped there was a general idea that they would come back. Almost no one has any illusions that Voom will return. So there could very well be (and most likely is) a difference between the situations. I for one agree with sco, unless you can prove to me otherwise. I would be glad to hear it

On a side note. Just called to order the Alabama game in PPV. Got it, and talked the guy into giving me Sunday ticket for half price, and superfan for free. You have to love the haggle system they have set up there. Sucks when you cant get it, but it sure is nice when you can. I cant wait to see the spectacular PQ that everyone is raving about on these channels!


Edit: speaking of the college football PPV. Thats one thing E* has D* beat hands down on. If you dont have a phone line hooked in with D*, you have to call and order it by phone. They charge extra, sure you can usually get that fee waived, but it is a hassle. Why not just offer the option online like E*? I ordered it online for my parents this morning. Took me 5 seconds. Much simpler

You KNOW that he didnt drop it because of lack of interest?

Vampz, the difference I see in dropping voom and some of these other drops is when those were dropped there was a general idea that they would come back. Almost no one has any illusions that Voom will return. So there could very well be (and most likely is) a difference between the situations. I for one agree with sco, unless you can prove to me otherwise. I would be glad to hear it

Hey, we all know Charlie's track record, and we all know not to believe everything you read when it comes to Charlie covering his tail...

...and if all-of-a-sudden you guys want to take the SAME pattern you've criticized out of Charlie all these years, and just as suddenly give him credibility just this one time...well now... :D

I just think its funny how in an equally questionable situation, were Charlie can be criticised or judged as a liar just as harshly as ever, for whatever reason...only the universe knows for sure, you all take charlies side, give him crediblity that none of you have ever given him before, and now decide to take everything he says here as gospel...

I just need to point that irony out for everyone to see here...because truthfully...ITS HILARIOUS! :D

I simply think its totally different than any other channel dropping situation if for no other reason than Vooms track record. Failed as a stand alone, failed as a add on offering (plus the fact that NO ONE else seemed interested in adding it to the HD channels they offered). Can you give me sub numbers that tell a different story? Honestly, I would be interested in knowing. Like I said, I could be wrong, you seem to be so SURE that you are correct. Anything to prove it?

I simply think its totally different than any other channel dropping situation if for no other reason than Vooms track record. Failed as a stand alone, failed as a add on offering (plus the fact that NO ONE else seemed interested in adding it to the HD channels they offered). Can you give me sub numbers that tell a different story? Honestly, I would be interested in knowing. Like I said, I could be wrong, you seem to be so SURE that you are correct. Anything to prove it?

Charlies Track Record speaks for itself...

And so does the crediblity of those who 'pick and choose' what they like to believe when given mostly identical situations, and suddenly flip-flop there opinion when its 'convenient'...lmao...

ever think of going into politics? :D :D :D

i respect your opinion my friend but i don't agree with it. we need the competition to continue for you and i to benefit from this so called war. i don't think it's over. one will always want more hd than the other and both will want to produce the best dvr possible for HD. the 722s will be an incredible piece of equipment. this will push D to produce something better than what we have now. I hope for the war to never end between these two which is why i hope they never merge.


Well the first problem for the 722 will be when DirecTV's DVR+'s are injected with a new custom designed software designed by Tivo.Then when DirecTV and Tivo bring out the new DirecTivo 2009.Guess you could call that a double whammy.;)

Charlies Track Record speaks for itself...

And so does the crediblity of those who 'pick and choose' what they like to believe when given mostly identical situations, and suddenly flip-flop there opinion when its 'convenient'...lmao...


As does Vooms vampz.

Do I think charlie takes an odd angle when it comes to negotiation? Sure. No one can deny that. He also isnt stupid. When a group of channels arent paying off (coupled with the fact that they couldnt get enough subs to make it on their own), he seemingly, has to take action. Like I said before, I simply dont think the sub base was there to make the Voom channels viable. Do you have numbers to state otherwise?

I could care less if voom comes back or stays off. You have the oposite opinion based on past posts. It seems, to me, that you are looking at it through rose colored glasses.

the irony here is that this is one of charlies most obvious deceptions to date, yet its the only move by charlie i've ever seen where you credit him with any integrity at all! I wonder why that is...lol...unbelievable...:)

You are in outer space - for sure.

I have given no credit to anyone for anything in my post. I simply stated what to me is an obvious fact (and agreement with msmiths observation) - VOOM was dropped so that more mainstream channels could be added. As I am not a DISH customer, it matters nothing to me what the reason was or that it was done at all.

I can't imagine Charlie dropping any programming that he believed was helping draw enough customers to his service, that wouldn't make any sense to me. DirecTV's marketing found that most people never even heard of the VOOM channels, they used that in their ads to their advantage, shortly thereafter VOOM was gone from DISH. I am not making any personal judgement on VOOMs programming value in any way.

I have given no credit to anyone for anything in my post. I simply stated what to me is an obvious fact (and agreement with msmiths observation) - VOOM was dropped so that more mainstream channels could be added. As I am not a DISH customer, it matters nothing to me what the reason was or that it was done at all.

I can't imagine Charlie dropping any programming that he believed was helping draw enough customers to his service, that wouldn't make any sense to me. DirecTV's marketing found that most people never even heard of the VOOM channels, they used that in their ads to their advantage, shortly thereafter VOOM was gone from DISH.
I dont recall being very critical of charlies negotiation tactics in the past either. I dont think he would drop something that was making him money. Like I said, he isnt stupid

I dont recall being very critical of charlies negotiation tactics in the past either. I dont think he would drop something that was making him money. Like I said, he isnt stupid

...and he's making money now...lol...yup...Voom-loss really stopped the bleeding allright, genious charlie that he is... :D :D :D

lol...

I can't believe you guys are defending charlie...this is the funniest warzone moment ever...

...and he's making money now...lol...yup...Voom-loss really stopped the bleeding allright, genious charlie that he is... :D :D :D

lol...

I can't believe you guys are defending charlie...this is the funniest warzone moment ever...

For the last time - I am not defending anyone. I have simply stated what I believe is the reason that VOOM was dropped, I couldn't care less. I didn't care when it was on, why would I care if it's not?

Get over it, and stop putting words in my mouth.

You are in outer space - for sure.

I have given no credit to anyone for anything in my post. I simply stated what to me is an obvious fact (and agreement with msmiths observation) - VOOM was dropped so that more mainstream channels could be added. As I am not a DISH customer, it matters nothing to me what the reason was or that it was done at all.

I can't imagine Charlie dropping any programming that he believed was helping draw enough customers to his service, that wouldn't make any sense to me. DirecTV's marketing found that most people never even heard of the VOOM channels, they used that in their ads to their advantage, shortly thereafter VOOM was gone from DISH. I am not making any personal judgement on VOOMs programming value in any way.

How am I in outer space? That sounds personal...

Anyways, you've been a HUGE Voom critic over the years and you would embrace anything to save face on your position, even if it means for the first time in your existance giving Charlie any integrety....and thats what we have here. So don't tell me that it matters nothing to you. It matters something, no doubt or you'd have nothing to say right now...

And like I said, Charlie is really drawing now...really stopped the bleeding...lol

Look...Voom wouldn't play Charlies courtroom games, good-bye Voom...Charlie added the new channels just to keep from REALLY losing subs on that one. Voom loss was a slap in the face how abruptedly that happened....

Like I said, I have no idea why you guys decide to defend Charlie now...makes no sense unless what I said in my first paragraph is true...

For the last time - I am not defending anyone. I have simply stated what I believe is the reason that VOOM was dropped, I couldn't care less. I didn't care when it was on, why would I care if it's not?

Get over it, and stop putting words in my mouth.

I was quoting msmith...

but your post might be appropriate if you had replied to the correct one...

How am I in outer space? That sounds personal...

Anyways, you've been a HUGE Voom critic over the years and you would embrace anything to save face on your position, even if it means for the first time in your existance giving Charlie any integrety....and thats what we have here. So don't tell me that it matters nothing to you. It matters something, no doubt or you'd have nothing to say right now...

And like I said, Charlie is really drawing now...really stopped the bleeding...lol

Look...Voom wouldn't play Charlies courtroom games, good-bye Voom...Charlie added the new channels just to keep from REALLY losing subs on that one. Voom loss was a slap in the face how abruptedly that happened....

Like I said, I have no idea why you guys decide to defend Charlie now...makes no sense unless what I said in my first paragraph is true...

I have in fact not been a critic, I have always said to each their own actually. I have also said that I had taken a look quite a few times at VOOM at my next door neighbors house, and really didn't find anything that was so appealing to me.

I have also said that my belief was that VOOM never had a large audience, and I think what has occured bears this out. That being said, just because I didn't personally find it attractive as a programming offering, or that I was correct in that it had low ratings, I never told anyone that said they liked VOOM that they shouldn't. Programming choices are personal in each and every case.

You need to stop putting words in my mouth - and your foot in your mouth. I have no interest on whether or not VOOM is on DISH.

You've also said that Voom had a small, but very loyal viewer base...if I'm incorrect on this, than I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth...but I believe that was something you said...

And I know you have NO interest in whether or not Voom is on E*...your interest is entirely personal. You want to justify your opinion on Voom. Unfortunately, you are never going to find justification in agreeing with Charlies move here because:

1) Charlies been criticized way to strongly in the past, why is this move ok? Why does this move have credility where others didn't?
2) Charlies handling of the situation with his subs was sudden and was questionable enough to warrant suspicion.
3) Charlie did NOT make any money, save any money, or do anything positive with that move. E* is still losing Subs as we speak, are they not? Pretty hard to justify a move like that based on...well...no positive outcome what-so-ever. If anything he ps'd off the few but most loyal of his subscriber base. Real smart move, Charlie...

So you see, based on these FACTS, this scenario provides no value what-so-ever to an anti-voom argument because the proof (Charlie) lacks credibility and the arguers embracing that proof are the proofs own biggest critics!

However if you need ammo to bash charlie...thats another story all together...bash away...its here....

...and he's making money now...lol...yup...Voom-loss really stopped the bleeding allright,.
Possible, I dont know what he was spending to carry voom. Putting a channel up isnt free you know......if the subs arent there to offset that cost, whats the point? For that matter, if the bandwidth can be better used on more popular channels, why keep niche channels up in their place?

I have also said that my belief was that VOOM never had a large audience,
That was my point also vampz. They didnt have the sub base, charlie cut them loose.

3) Charlie did NOT make any money, save any money, or do anything positive with that move.
Again vampz. If you want to state this as fact, prove it. You have NO way of knowing this. I dont either, which is why I try not to state in certian terms things outside of my personal experience. So again, I say, you are looking at this through biased eyes, based on your past statements about voom.

You've also said that Voom had a small, but very loyal viewer base...if I'm incorrect on this, than I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth...but I believe that was something you said...

And I know you have NO interest in whether or not Voom is on E*...your interest is entirely personal. You want to justify your opinion on Voom. Unfortunately, you are never going to find justification in agreeing with Charlies move here because:

1) Charlies been criticized way to strongly in the past, why is this move ok? Why does this move have credility where others didn't?
2) Charlies handling of the situation with his subs was sudden and was questionable enough to warrant suspicion.
3) Charlie did NOT make any money, save any money, or do anything positive with that move. E* is still losing Subs as we speak, are they not? Pretty hard to justify a move like that based on...well...no positive outcome what-so-ever. If anything he ps'd off the few but most loyal of his subscriber base. Real smart move, Charlie...

So you see, based on these FACTS, this scenario provides no value what-so-ever to an anti-voom argument because the proof (Charlie) lacks credibility and the arguers embracing that proof are the proofs own biggest critics!

However if you need ammo to bash charlie...thats another story all together...bash away...its here....

1) Of course I said that VOOM had some number of very loyal viewers. So does QVC, doesn't it?

2) Charlies move was sudden. He has taken many channels off suddenly, hasn't he?

3) Until you have mentioned it, I see no posts regarding Charlie making or losing money. This is not now or has not been a concern or an issue to me. Many have said that taking VOOM down was postive to THEM - it allowed DISH valuable bandwith to add more of the 'mainstream' HD channels they wanted. This like every programming decision is up to the individual. Those that loved (liked) VOOM would see it as a negative, I agree. To me I don't care one way or another, I am not a DISH customer.

I still haven't bashed DISH or Charlie. Frankly, I don't care. DISH is really a non-issue to me. You know why - I am one of those sports nuts. Forget the NFL or MLB - they don't have YES. I need no other reason to not sub to DISH. And yes, not having the most watched RSN on your system (the ONLY pay provider offering service in the #1 DMA not to have it) - well to me that is more insane than removing VOOM. Just my opinion.

Again vampz. If you want to state this as fact, prove it. You have NO way of knowing this. I dont either, which is why I try not to state in certian terms things outside of my personal experience. So again, I say, you are looking at this through biased eyes, based on your past statements about voom.

Are you blind? I've successfully proved my statement on the basis of charlies track record and the fact that the move had no positive outcome what-so-ever in order to justify it in the context it was given.

Thats my proof...

now its up to you to prove your position, that in spite of charlies track record, and in spite of no ascertainable outcome, that the statement is true. That charlie DID remove Voom due to being unpopular and NOT because of playing courtroom games like in the past. You need to prove this in spite of being one of charlies critics in the past, and prove this in terms of why NOW you believe charlie when it the past you have not...

I'm listening...

Forget the NFL or MLB - they don't have YES. I need no other reason to not sub to DISH. And yes, not having the most watched RSN on your system (the ONLY pay provider offering service in the #1 DMA not to have it) - well to me that is more insane than removing VOOM. Just my opinion.

This is your only statement in history that we've ever agreed 100 percent on.

Ignoring the RSN for your largest sports market in about as stupid as it gets...

Vampz, prove to me that Voom EVER had the subs to make it on their own or as an add on. So I guess, I have proven my point based on the fact that they didnt, and that you dont actually know what positive effect dropping voom had on charlies bottom line.....come on vampz, we are both stating opinion here.

As much as you dont want to admit it, the proof can go BOTH ways.

Edit: since when are we at the point where a poster with an OPINION has to prove it, and a poster that posts as FACT doesnt?

Ignoring the RSN for your largest sports market in about as stupid as it gets...
That I agree with also.

Vampz, prove to me that Voom EVER had the subs to make it on their own or as an add on.

As much as you dont want to admit it, the proof can go BOTH ways.

What are you talking about? Dish had MORE than enough subs for Voom to make it...what the heck are you talking about?

just deliver what I asked you if you expect to be taken seriously, ok? I gave you what you asked for...I don't know what your problem is with fair play...

What are you talking about? Dish had MORE than enough subs for Voom to make it...what the heck are you talking about?

just deliver what I asked you if you expect to be taken seriously, ok? I gave you what you asked for...I don't know what your problem is with fair play...
Just deliver what I asked if you want the same. I never questioned how many subs E* had vampz. I asked how many VOOM had. Alone or as an add on to E*s product. ANd if that was enough to warrant keeping it as a service. We KNOW it wasnt as a stand alone, which supports my OPINION that it wasnt as an add on to dish. Of course Dish had enough subs (not all of them got voom), that was NEVER the question. You are really reaching with that.

That I agree with also.

GOOD! :)

Because than you can readily knowledge that as proof that Charlie DOES NOT base his programming decisions on POPULARITY! And if he says he does, he is lying...he would have provided Yes-HD a long time ago if that was the case...

Just deliver what I asked if you want the same. I never questioned how many subs E* had vampz. I asked how many VOOM had. Alone or as an add on to E*s product. ANd if that was enough to warrant keeping it as a service. We KNOW it wasnt as a stand alone, which supports my OPINION that it wasnt as an add on to dish. Of course Dish had enough subs, that was NEVER the question. You are really reaching with that.

Voom had just as many subs as any other HD channel on E*...it was part of the standard package...what more could you possibly want.

And if your looking for stats for Voom as a stand-alone company...you're asking about why it failed as a business...and those reasons are too numerous to mention, and have NOTHING to do with programming...

Your trying to compare a sat provider to a channel suite...come on already and stop trying to convolute the issue....I gave you what you asked for and your playing games...



As much as you dont want to admit it, the proof can go BOTH ways.

Edit: since when are we at the point where a poster with an OPINION has to prove it, and a poster that posts as FACT doesnt?

OH MY! I provided EVERYTHING YOU ASKED! And your trying to duck and dodge having to do the SAME!

All right...your argument is washed up...forget it. Once you start backpedalling like that...theres no sense in going forward.

have a good night msmith....and I'd appreciate you not play silly games with me. If you have a point, make it...but dodging it and playing fallacy games is not going to impress me. Never had, never will...

GOOD! :)

Because than you can readily knowledge that as proof that Charlie DOES NOT base his programming decisions on POPULARITY! And if he says he does, he is lying...he would have provided Yes-HD a long time ago if that was the case...
Vampz, one channel has nothing to di with another. I dont know the contrat particulars that go along with adding this channel, neither do you if I am not mistaken. It proves NOTHING in regards to charlie and channels popularity.

Voom had just as many subs as any other HD channel on E*...it was part of the standard package...what more could you possibly want.


Werent they part of the HD ULTIMATE (which yes, included other channels also) package for a while at the end? If so, you statement is incorrect. Unless you want to tell me EVERY E* HD sub got ultimate.

OH MY! I provided EVERYTHING YOU ASKED! And your trying to duck and dodge having to do the SAME!

..
Vampz, you have YET to provide me with proof that E* had enough subs that wanted or subscribed to the voom add on to warrant keeping it. That was my ONLY point. In my OPINION they didnt have it. I asked you to provide it when you said you KNEW that wasnt the reason. You gave me your personal OPINION only. Which is just as good as mine, honestly. Just dont try to act like it is better, and everyone else is blind and playing games with you by trying to show a different point of view. You do it in every thread, and its a tired argument.

Werent they part of the HD ULTIMATE package for a while at the end? If so, you statement is incorrect. Unless you want to tell me EVERY E* HD sub got ultimate.

Its always been in the basic package for YEARS and every sub got it...they didn't move it to ultimate until Charlie started playing his games with them in court. (I remember may here who were upset about that too) That was all part of Charlies game...has little to do with Voom's viewership as much as Charlies cunning...just like everything else we are discussing...

Vampz, you have YET to provide me with proof that E* had enough subs that wanted or subscribed to the voom add on to warrant keeping it. That was my ONLY point. In my OPINION they didnt have it. I asked you to provide it when you said you KNEW that wasnt the reason. You gave me your personal OPINION only. Which is just as good as mine, honestly. Just dont try to act like it is better, and everyone else is blind and playing games with you by trying to show a different point of view. You do it in every thread, and its a tired argument.

I GAVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU ASKED...

your choice:
shut up or deliver...and stop backpedalling and spamming this thread...

are you trying to make me lose my temper?

Vampz, one channel has nothing to di with another. I dont know the contrat particulars that go along with adding this channel, neither do you if I am not mistaken. It proves NOTHING in regards to charlie and channels popularity.

HA! One channel HAS EVERYTHING to do with another...ITS how he does business...pure and simple...

IT PROVES EVERYTHING!

(whether you can handle that or not.)