So D* heavily promoted their HD channel capacity after their new satellite became operational, and yet over the past several months, have added extremely little in the way of new HD national channels.

We got what, 4 new non-PPV national HD channels in the summer. And what, only 1 since then? Is that correct? And it was Fox News, which I didn't even bother to add to my Favorites list.

I can't believe we are coming into December with so few additions. I thought we would have several more premium HD movie channels by now, as they are out there available for D* to carry.

Are there any rumblings on this front?

I know they've add more HD locals. I don't even use my D* HD locals, as I prefer to pick them up OTA.

I hate to do this, but I will anyway.
There's a lengthy thread on DBSTalk about this subject.
Why Is Directv Forgetting About The Premium Channel Subscribers? - DBSTalk.Com (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=146035)
One of many.

I believe DirecTV will offer more HD once the proper agreements are signed.

Unfortunately, there is not much happening. Everything that we've heard indicates a couple national HDs in December, a couple in January. I know MLB network will be added Jan 1, but there is little solid speculation on what the others may be.

They are still focussed on adding HD locals, but that is going to slow down for a month or two as well. There are only a few markets scheduled to launch in Dec/Jan.

Last i've heard was for around turkey day.. what happened with that ?

Followed the links in that DBStalk thread. I had no idea that Verizon had moved so far ahead of D* in HD channels. Now if Verizon has seriously compromised HD quality, I wouldn't consider that a good tradeoff.

It is just that I had thought D* had gotten serious about HD. I guess I was wrong.

I dont think its channel agreements or any of that... I personally think, that directv is being very very lazy at the moment. My thoughts are that they are waiting on echostar to launch new HD so they can fire back and say well we have more. Personally, why wait on charlie, crush him now, and forget about E*. Both sat providers said that they would have 150 by the end of the year, while its not over yet, Time is slowly ticking away. They actually should be adding HD now as people are buying high def sets for the holidays and for feb. Also, new birds are suppost to be launching in 09, and were getting close to those launches. With that said why not get rid of the few pay per views and launch real channels. Also while were at it what ever happened to all the test channels like outdoor HD and PBS HD? Where the hell is my pbs in HD that you signed that agreement with way back when.

You know, this one from last year!

The DIRECTV Group, Inc. - DIRECTV to Carry Public Television Stations in HD (http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=284302)

You know the one that roll out was suppost to start in 08. Were almost to 09 where the hell is it at?

Also in febuary they are going to raise our rates like they do every year, unless they have froze them.

Aside from the obvious channels that are available that D* isn't carrying has anyone heard any news about new HD channel launches ?

BBC America, Comedy Central and a few others were supposed to be online before the end of the year but it seems the announcements have gone cold.

Bob, I have to agree with you that it is not all about contracts. Besides PBS doesn't Directv already have a contract for all the HBO and Cinamax channels that was announced in September of last year?

Here is the other thread on it:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-forum/156249-hey-d-you-signed-agreement-where-my-pbs-hd.html

Since D11 launched this year all D* has done with it for national HD channels is give us MPEG4 versions of the old MPEG2 HD channels, added 6 new national HD channels (ABC Family, Planet Green HD, Crime Scene and Investigation HD, Fox News HD, Showtime Extreme HD and Showtime Showcase HD) converted some part time RSNs to full time and a gazillon HD PPVs.

To me that is very disappointing. While the conversion of the old HD channels is appreciated, to only add 6 new channels while there are over 40 currently available channels is pitiful.

I think since Malone and Liberty took ownership of D*, they have gone down hill. Some people warned everybody to the poor way Malone has run TV providers before and he seems to have done the same to D*.

D* has capacity left on D11 to add more channels and are suppose to launch D12 late next year but what is the point. They have capacity that they aren't even using so they shouldn't waste their time and money launching D12.

HDTVTechno, you're right, satelliteracer did say a few weeks ago that some would be coming around Thanksgiving but he has since changed his tune to now say December/January. However, apparently people are now longer allowed to speak to the great and sacred SatelliteRacer even though he is just a D* employee who is trying to calm down angry subscribers who are disappointed with how D* is progressing.

The D* apologists are full of excuses. Contracts ("takes two to tango") or technical or concentrating on locals are the normal excuses. However, if you look at the facts you'll see that is just BS. Other providers have come to terms with some of the missing channels, like ESPNU, Travel, Encore and HBO/Max so that proves that deals can be made. But instead D* has taken a penny pinching approach or as Bob says a lazy approach. The main excuse you hear about the missing HBO/Max channels is that D* is working on technical issues so that they can deliver the newer MPEG4 delivered HBO/Max channels without any kind of conversion. But that is BS too because FiOS, E* and U-Verse have all been delivering some of the newer MPEG4 HBO/Max channels. So if those providers can do it why can't D*? And last year D* was able to add both national and local HDs so why can't they do it now.

However, for all my complaints about D* they are still my best bet and I'm stuck with them for better or worse although lately it's been more worse than better. My local TWC has far fewer HD channels than D*. FiOS will never come to my area because we are getting the lesser of the two IPTVs, U-Verse. U-Verse's limited number of video streams to the house aren't enough for me. I currently have 9 tuners active (4 HD) in my house. Also E* limits the number of tuners that can be leased. That prevents me from going to E* since I don't want the extra cost needed to buy the extra receivers that can't be leased. I also don't like the way E* implements the dual room DVRs. The shared tuners and hard drives I find limiting. I rather have 2 hard drives and 4 tuners for two rooms instead.

As far as the threads over at DBSTalk ("D11 disappointment" and "D* forgetting premium subscribers") those threads just annoy the crap out of me. 95% of the people over there are D* lemmings (led by the staff) and if anybody dare criticizes D*, they jump on you like sharks in a feeding frenzy. I haven't posted there since August and I don't plan on anytime soon because of the way the lemmings over there treat dissent. As of today, I've logged out my account over there and I will never visit that web site again.

uncrules you hit the nail on the head.

There's only 4 things I want.

1. Comedy Central in HD
2. PBS over satellite
3. MRV on all capable Directv receivers (HR2x's, H2x's)
4. New MPEG4 HD Tivo for my wife

The rest is probably nice for someone but I dont have time or need.

Add me to the list of those disappointed in the promise of D11 and all the new HD we'd be seeing once it was operational!!! Yadda-yadda! Charlie had to dump Zoom to do it but he found a way to add WGNHD, TRAVELCHANNELHD, LIFETIMEHD, LIFETIMEMOVIECHANNELHD, ABCFAMILYHD, etc. And it does appear that Directv's performance slowed considerably with the appearance of Malone.

umm the "new" owner of D* (John Malone) is "best buddies" with good ole charlie. He also ran one of the "worst" cable TV companies (TCI). I think he is trying to make as much profit as possible while providing as little service as possible

umm the "new" owner of D* (John Malone) is "best buddies" with good ole charlie. He also ran one of the "worst" cable TV companies (TCI). I think he is trying to make as much profit as possible while providing as little service as possible

He'll be selling soon ... if he keeps this up, he won't get as much as he thinks.

uncrules ... I agree with what you have said. I just posted a message on DBStalk, critical of those who defend D* on this matter. I've rarely posted there because that board is so heavily moderated and apologetic on all things D*. I would not be surprised to learn that it is partially owned by D*.

I like your point about D12. At this point in time it is totally unneeded, unless they are going to load hundreds of additional HD locals on it.

I do appreciate D* keeping the PQ high. I am not in favor of compromising PQ for more HD channels. However I don't see that as the reason why more HD channels are not being added. They have sufficient bandwidth to add several more HD channels at the same PQ as today's channels.

umm the "new" owner of D* (John Malone) is "best buddies" with good ole charlie. He also ran one of the "worst" cable TV companies (TCI). I think he is trying to make as much profit as possible while providing as little service as possible

I kind of alluded to the fact before that since Malone and Charlie are good buddies could be making D* not try so hard to crush E*, like Bob mentioned earlier, when they have the chance to. Now when Murdoch owned D*, they were much more aggressive in trying to put the hurting on E*. Of course Murdoch hates Charlie.

With the friendship of Malone and Charlie and the do nothingness of both companies right now you almost would think that they are in collusion with each other.

UNCRULES, I am also disappointed with the lack of new national HD channels, over and above what we've received so far. But I would like to counter some of the statments you've made with my opinon.


Since D11 launched this year all D* has done with it for national HD channels is give us MPEG4 versions of the old MPEG2 HD channels, added 6 new national HD channels (ABC Family, Planet Green HD, Crime Scene and Investigation HD, Fox News HD, Showtime Extreme HD and Showtime Showcase HD) converted some part time RSNs to full time and a gazillon HD PPVs.

Sixto over at DBSTalk has a thread about what's on what transponders on D10/D11, D11's layout is at DBSTalk.Com - View Single Post - DirecTV HD - Current Listing (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1191863&postcount=2) with D10 later in that post. What you say about what's been added is correct but you make it like it's nothing big. How many posts were there about the horrible quality of the MPEG2 HD channels, people started their own web sites about DirecTV and the HD-Lite issue. That's a total of 17 channels that I count (don't forget the HD DNS channels). And yes they added a bunch of HD PPV channels, which you negelect to mention are used to take care of another big bitch that people had, NFL-ST HD games in in MPEG2, all games not carried due to bandwidth issues and even the Sunday afternoon shutdown of TNT-HD channel. You may not care about NFL-ST but there and many thouands that do (IIRC there are a few hundred thousand subscribers to NFL-ST. They also need to carry all the NBA-LP, NHL-CI HD games which all those HD PPV channels allow them to do by switching them from HD PPV to the sports subscription channels when needed.


The D* apologists are full of excuses. Contracts ("takes two to tango") or technical or concentrating on locals are the normal excuses. However, if you look at the facts you'll see that is just BS. Other providers have come to terms with some of the missing channels, like ESPNU, Travel, Encore and HBO/Max so that proves that deals can be made. But instead D* has taken a penny pinching approach or as Bob says a lazy approach. The main excuse you hear about the missing HBO/Max channels is that D* is working on technical issues so that they can deliver the newer MPEG4 delivered HBO/Max channels without any kind of conversion. But that is BS too because FiOS, E* and U-Verse have all been delivering some of the newer MPEG4 HBO/Max channels. So if those providers can do it why can't D*? And last year D* was able to add both national and local HDs so why can't they do it now.

Maybe it is D* playing hardball with content providers, you know like Charlie does at E* to keep their subscribers costs down:rolleyes:, maybe it's technical, unless we're employees at D* we really don't know why things aren't happening as quickly as we as customers had hoped for. But don't make it sound like all the other providers are carrying everything. Does E* have the FOX HD channels or the Viacom HD channels? TWC is our local cable company, there are a number of channels that they don't have like Sci-Fi HD or NFL Network. I'm going to guess that they're holding things up so they have the bandwidth for the sports package HD channels. If they add Travel channel HD or ESPNU HD how much more money are they going to make, zilch unless they're going to raise our rates for these new channels. But D*'s know for being the place to go for sports, and they'll make money off of the folks that want NBA-LP, NHL-CI, NFL-ST.



However, apparently people are now longer allowed to speak to the great and sacred SatelliteRacer even though he is just a D* employee who is trying to calm down angry subscribers who are disappointed with how D* is progressing.

Not accurate, what was posted by the mods was saying they didn't want folks to keep starting threads asking Satelliteracer what's next, since they were being started every week, sometimes multiple threads, not that they couldn't post other questions to him. As a DirecTV employee he's probably very limited as to what he can and can't say and frankly I'm surprised he hasn't been shut down yet. Look what happens with E* employees that post info like that, they're usually ex- E* employees very soon after they post.

As I said, just my take on the situation and why things might be the way they are.

What you say about what's been added is correct but you make it like it's nothing big. How many posts were there about the horrible quality of the MPEG2 HD channels, people started their own web sites about DirecTV and the HD-Lite issue. That's a total of 17 channels that I count (don't forget the HD DNS channels). And yes they added a bunch of HD PPV channels, which you negelect to mention are used to take care of another big bitch that people had ...

I don't follow your math. How did the 6 grow into 17 channels? Note that when D* converts a channel from MPEG2 to MPEG4 that they use less bandwidth. Thus I would not count a converted channel as an addition & making use of D11.

I also wouldn't count the large increase of HD PPV channels as a positive. I feel those were added more for D*'s marketing needs than their customer needs. Here on Sat Guys, I don't remember reading a single positive comment about their adding several more HD PPV channels.



Maybe it is D* playing hardball with content providers, you know like Charlie does at E* to keep their subscribers costs down:rolleyes:, maybe it's technical, unless we're employees at D* we really don't know why things aren't happening as quickly as we as customers had hoped for.

Or as quickly as D* told us it would happen. I consider them to be about 30-40 channels short of what they were saying would be available by the end of '08.

What annoys me the most is that I'm paying a premium for HD and a premium for movie channels, and yet D* is not providing several premium movie channels in HD, even though they are available and even though D* has the bandwidth to offer them.

I don't follow your math. How did the 6 grow into 17 channels? Note that when D* converts a channel from MPEG2 to MPEG4 that they use less bandwidth. Thus I would not count a converted channel as an addition & making use of D11.

OK, did you bother to look at the link to DBSTalk that shows what's on D11, guess not. But if you did you'd see that ABCE, HDNet Movies, ESPN, HD Theater, TNT, HD Net, CBSW, HBO, FOXE, SHowtime, CBSE, ESPN2, NBCE, FOXW, Universal, NBCW, ABCW (that's 17) are up on D11. These are not 'converts' as you say since the MPEG2 versions are still up and running for the non network DNS HD channels for the folks that haven't converted their receivers to MPEG4 yet. Plus those channels were on the 110/119 slots which D* is trying to stop using for national HD channels so they can get down to just 99/101/103 LOS for installs.


I also wouldn't count the large increase of HD PPV channels as a positive. I feel those were added more for D*'s marketing needs than their customer needs. Here on Sat Guys, I don't remember reading a single positive comment about their adding several more HD PPV channels.

I don't think anyone does, I don't either. But it looks like you've missed my point about those HD PPV channels doing double duty as sports subscription package HD channels. As an example how about you look at the guide for this Sunday at 12PM CST, what does channels 163, 164, 165, 166, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 188, 189 show, nothing but 'upcoming'. Why, because they flip that transponder space from the HD PPV's to cover their needs for the sports channels, like NFL-ST HD channels.


Or as quickly as D* told us it would happen. I consider them to be about 30-40 channels short of what they were saying would be available by the end of '08.

What annoys me the most is that I'm paying a premium for HD and a premium for movie channels, and yet D* is not providing several premium movie channels in HD, even though they are available and even though D* has the bandwidth to offer them.

Agreed, don't see them hitting 150 by EOY, but then that gets back to did they say they'd have 150 channels or just the capacity for 150 channels? As far as premium movie channels, why be upset about the lack of HD, I'm pi**ed that they don't have the SD versions of the channels, where's all the Cinemax channels, hell where the hell is HBO Comedy let alone the HD versions.

As I said, I'm also not happy with the progress being made to add new national HD channels, all I was trying to do is point out that D11 isn't just doing nothing up there, D*'s put up a bunch of HD channels, just not the ones that many people want. And don't forget something that Scott G said many months ago, this time D* will be very selective about what channels they do add since this is all the capacity they have until D12 launches sometime in 2009.

online guide wednesday (12/3) is showing a golf/vs hd split at 6am. specifically, it says the two are now seperate channels!

Rad, I don't mean to sound like I'm down playing the conversion of MPEG2 to MPEG4. It's probably the best thing that D* has done with the extra bandwidth D11 brought us.

As far as the bandwidth sharing HD PPVs I'm well aware of the fact. In fact I got into a discussion with some folks here in the war zone about that fact. However, as Sixto does point, not all of the HD PPVs are needed for the bandwidth sharing. I won't go back there to get the exact number but I think D* needs around 19 or 20 HD PPVs to be shared with the part time RSNs. That means that a large number of the HD PPVs that D* is providing are superfluous and should be turned into real HD channels. According to the analysis there is room for about 17 more HD channels and still have enough room for special events and HD PPV/part time RSN sharing. My wish list for the 17 channels would be ESPNU and some of the missing HBO/Max channels. The HD sports leader should carry ESPNU HD. As the big college sports fan that I am, there have been a number of college football and basketball games that I've had to watch on the overly compressed ESPNU SD.

As far as SatRacer goes, I think he is there with D*'s blessing. He doesn't give out much long term big plan info. He's usually helping people that have blackout, League Pass, or Center Ice issues. Also his little "festivus" announcements usually aren't that far ahead of the actual launches. Usually just a couple days.

His other main job seems to be calming down the angry masses. Post soothing stuff like "soon" or "two to tango" or "technical" to pass the blame to another company. Back when the August 13th press release was announced and people were angry about the lack of new channels and the high number of HD PPVs he dropped subtle hints about surprises in the upcoming launch. Well there was none. Then he kind of hinted back in August after the dud that was the August 13th release that more was coming "soon" and the HBO/Max tech issues would be resolved "soon" but so far soon has turned into a long time.

As far as D*'s new negotiating tactics, yes D* has become a lot like Charlie but that certainly is no positive thing At least they haven't taken away channels, yet. ;) Last year D* was super aggressive and they went from about 10 HD channels to about 95 in about 3 months. They had no problems negotiating last year. Certainly Malone's ownership has turned them conservative when negotiating new deals. No one knows for sure why but I wonder if it has to do with maybe him wanting to sell D* to someone like AT&T. Pro sports teams sometime will hold off on giving out new expensive contracts to free agents when a team is for sale. Have to make the bottom line look as good as possible for the upcoming sale.

online guide wednesday (12/3) is showing a golf/vs hd split at 6am. specifically, it says the two are now seperate channels!

Hmmm... I don't see that in my online guide. Maybe that was released too early and D* has since removed it. I believe something similar happened with the Crime and Investigation channel. It showed in the online guide ahead of time and then was removed.

Hmmm... I don't see that in my online guide. Maybe that was released too early and D* has since removed it. I believe something similar happened with the Crime and Investigation channel. It showed in the online guide ahead of time and then was removed.


its being stated in two places....on the dvr guide and at directv.com. i just checked again. satracer hinted in early november/late october something was coming onboard sooner than expected, around thanksgiving or shortly thereafter. my first thought was the golf/vs split. i certainly hope so. don't want too worry about missing those thursday, friday or saturday nhl playoff games.

its being stated in two places....on the dvr guide and at directv.com. i just checked again. satracer hinted in early november/late october something was coming onboard sooner than expected, around thanksgiving or shortly thereafter. my first thought was the golf/vs split. i certainly hope so. don't want too worry about missing those thursday, friday or saturday nhl playoff games.

Ok, I think I didn't understand. I still see just the one channel but the actual program listed at 12/3 6am says "VS. and Golf now separate channels."

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5462/golfvsky2.jpg

UNCRULES, I agree with what Sixto says, that all the D11 space isn't being used and that a number of HD PPV's can be used for new national HD, just trying to point out that it's not like D11 is sitting there doing nothing;)

I'm sure Satracer is there with the knowledge of DirecTV brass, else he couldn't get folks discounts on NASCAR Hot Pass like he did this year. But he's probably kept on a short lease and only allowed to pass on info when it's 100% sure it's going to happen so folks don't come back and say DirecTV via Satracer said this or that and it didn't happen. I look at it this way, at least he's better then some others on this site that keep saying there's a rumor E*'s going to add new HD this week for such and such reason, according to what he's heard, and then when it doesn't happen saying that's why he posted at as a rumor. At least with Satracer when he says it's going to happen in the vast majority of the time it does.

For last years HD launch, they had to do something big, they were getting their rears beat by Dish and cable companies, they had no choice to but to make that big splash to get HD users to give D* another look.

You have been banned for the following reason:
This account has been flagged as being a second account from the same user. We do not allow multiple accounts. If this is an error, please contact the administrators.
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Anyone get this when logging back into DBStalk?

I only have one account, so something tells me that they group everyone into one group and ban them so they can worship D* in peace :rolleyes:

it has the same message on my dvr's. sorry, if i cinfused you!

DirecTV has way more HD channels than cable so quit complaining. No matter how many HD channels you have you're always going to want more, there's no satisfying the American TV audience.

These are not 'converts' as you say since the MPEG2 versions are still up and running for the non network DNS HD channels for the folks that haven't converted their receivers to MPEG4 yet.Would you accept the term "duplicates"? The path that DIRECTV chose forced them to mirror the original channels and they've decided to coddle their remaining MPEG2-only (and Ku-only) subscribers at significant bandwidth expense.

Perhaps the non-DIRECTV branded receiver customers hold a lot more sway than anyone is willing to admit.

Would you accept the term "duplicates"? The path that DIRECTV chose forced them to mirror the original channels and they've decided to coddle their remaining MPEG2-only (and Ku-only) subscribers at significant bandwidth expense.

Perhaps the non-DIRECTV branded receiver customers hold a lot more sway than anyone is willing to admit.

You mean that D* didn't force their customers to upgrade if they wanted to continue to receive the existing MPEG2 HD channels vs. E* which has told their customers upgrade by this date or you don't receive them anymore. D* isn't in the same bandwidth crunch that E* was so they can afford to mirror those channels.

If you want to talk about duplicate E* wins hands down, they've basically duplicated their entier satellite programming on the eastern arc so they'd be able to add HD LIL cities. Talk about a total waste of limited orbital capacity.

You mean that D* didn't force their customers to upgrade if they wanted to continue to receive the existing MPEG2 HD channels vs. E* which has told their customers upgrade by this date or you don't receive them anymore. D* isn't in the same bandwidth crunch that E* was so they can afford to mirror those channels.This isn't about E*. The fact that the miserly Charlie has managed to reach agreements with some of the missing networks only makes it harder to stomach.

It shouldn't be about TiVo either.

Apparently D* is in some sort of crunch. They seem to be chasing after small fry at the expense of the masses. Each move they've made recently has impacted a relatively small percentage of their subscribers and the percentages get smaller with each move. The November 19th LIL turn-ups applied to customers numbering in the hundreds of thousands and in most cases, have brought no additional revenue that wasn't driven backwards by SAC. What are the remaining 17 million customers supposed to think?

This isn't about E*. The fact that the miserly Charlie has managed to reach agreements with some of the missing networks only makes it harder to stomach.

It shouldn't be about TiVo either.

Apparently D* is in some sort of crunch. They seem to be chasing after small fry at the expense of the masses. Each move they've made recently has impacted a relatively small percentage of their subscribers and the percentages get smaller with each move. The November 19th LIL turn-ups applied to customers numbering in the hundreds of thousands and in most cases, have brought no additional revenue that wasn't driven backwards by SAC. What are the remaining 17 million customers supposed to think?

As an E* sub posting in a D* thread I should be able to bring them into the discussion to counter your arguments.

Don't understand your comment about crunchs and chasing after small fry. Of course the HD LIL turnup's are going to be going after smaller and smaller markets. If you check out DIRECTV HD Locals by DMA Ranking (http://members.cox.net/oknewshawk2/DTV_HDLIL_DMA.html) it isn't until you get down to DMA #65 that D*'s missed a market for HD LIL. As a D* customer what do I think about it, I don't think about it at all, D*'s following through on their marketing saying they're going to be rolling out HD LIL. And what about SAC, that's part of doing business if you want to expand, or are saying that sat companies should only provide local channels in markets that have let say over 500K households? Sorry, not following your logic on why this is bad for D* but must be OK for E*, especially since they tend to go after smaller markets that D* hasn't provided service to.

You mean that D* didn't force their customers to upgrade if they wanted to continue to receive the existing MPEG2 HD channels vs. E* which has told their customers upgrade by this date or you don't receive them anymore. D* isn't in the same bandwidth crunch that E* was so they can afford to mirror those channels.

If you want to talk about duplicate E* wins hands down, they've basically duplicated their entier satellite programming on the eastern arc so they'd be able to add HD LIL cities. Talk about a total waste of limited orbital capacity.

IT wasn't just to add hd locals it was also to give subs who have a line of sight problems an alternative and point to the eastern arc:72.7/77/61.5. It was also the start of an all mpeg 4 transition for all new subs and existing subs. It will take 3 - 4 years to transition all existing subs to mpeg 4 receivers.

DISH starts on the eastern arc with new subs and then moves to existing subs in those areas. Once they get all those subs moved to mpeg 4 in their own time frames , they could repeat the transition of all western arc subs to mpeg 4 . Once that is complete they could change ALL programming on the 110/119 satellites to mpeg 4. THis frees up all kinds of bandwith for future programming and DISH can take their own time in upgrading all subs to mpeg 4 -even those who only want standard def. DISH can depreciate the cost of the transition over many years and still retain existing subs who may not be ready to upgrade yet. This is a very wise plan. As opposed to DIRECTV who would have to transition ALL 17 million subs to mpeg 4 receivers before they could even THINK about transmitting all programming in mpeg 4.

So DISH is already the first company to provide an all mpeg 4 hd service with the all Turbo hd accounts for new subs and eastern arc, and once they complete the transition they will provide both eastern and western arc customers with all mpeg 4 programming. Then they will become the first sat service with ALL mpeg 4 programming . Way before DIRECTV who will still have a mix of mpeg 2 & 4.

And speaking about limited bandwith, DISH has more bandwith than DIRECTV because they have way more satellites up in orbit and they even lease to other companies . They also use some of the satellites for the Echostar VIP service for small cable companies. They don't even use the 105 sat for anything right now as it is leased by Echostar anyway. The 121 sat is used for very few subs with business accounts and a few subs with internationals. THey even have all kinds of leased tweener spots yet to be filled with satellites yet. I don't think anyone will have to worry about DISH running out of room for bandwith any time soon.

It isn't about E* because D* hasn't based their promises on what E* offers.

The issue is D* meeting the expectations that they set back in September of 2004 and subsequently. D* has to satisfy two types of customers: subscribers and stockholders. For the most part, they seem to have forsaken the lion's share of their HD subscribers and unless E* is striking exclusive agreements with some of these carriers, D*'s apparent failure to meet expectations that they fostered has nothing to do with E*. Certainly D*'s performance can be measured against that of its competitors in both the programming and hardware arenas, but in this case, I believe it is the expectations that they are at odds with.

IT wasn't just to add hd locals it was also to give subs who have a line of sight problems an alternative and point to the eastern arc:72.7/77/61.5. It was also the start of an all mpeg 4 transition for all new subs and existing subs. It will take 3 - 4 years to transition all existing subs to mpeg 4 receivers.

As you said, EA wasn't just about adding locals, they could have just added locals at those slots but then you're locked into a two dish setup and unlike many folks here who look at having a dish farm on their roofs a badge of honor, most folks don't want that.


DISH starts on the eastern arc with new subs and then moves to existing subs in those areas. Once they get all those subs moved to mpeg 4 in their own time frames , they could repeat the transition of all western arc subs to mpeg 4 . Once that is complete they could change ALL programming on the 110/119 satellites to mpeg 4. THis frees up all kinds of bandwith for future programming and DISH can take their own time in upgrading all subs to mpeg 4 -even those who only want standard def. DISH can depreciate the cost of the transition over many years and still retain existing subs who may not be ready to upgrade yet. This is a very wise plan. As opposed to DIRECTV who would have to transition ALL 17 million subs to mpeg 4 receivers before they could even THINK about transmitting all programming in mpeg 4.

As you say, this will take many years for E* to get all their customers with MPEG4 hardware, what's to say that D* isn't planning the same? If you look at their recent Wall Street presentations they have a timeline where they want to get down to one common receiver for their customers.


So DISH is already the first company to provide an all mpeg 4 hd service with the all Turbo hd accounts for new subs and eastern arc, and once they complete the transition they will provide both eastern and western arc customers with all mpeg 4 programming. Then they will become the first sat service with ALL mpeg 4 programming . Way before DIRECTV who will still have a mix of mpeg 2 & 4.

So what? All MPEG4 does is allow you to squeeze more data into then MPEG2 does in the same space. Having this all MPEG4 EA system has done what for customers, Scott has said the PQ is about the same as the old MPEG2 channels. It hasn't given E* a commanding lead in channels over D*. You could say that D* was the first to offer a all MPEG4 HD system since all their HD channels are available in MPEG4 while E* still has a number of HD channels in MPEG2 only on the 110/119 system.


And speaking about limited bandwith, DISH has more bandwith than DIRECTV because they have way more satellites up in orbit and they even lease to other companies . They also use some of the satellites for the Echostar VIP service for small cable companies. They don't even use the 105 sat for anything right now as it is leased by Echostar anyway. The 121 sat is used for very few subs with business accounts and a few subs with internationals. THey even have all kinds of leased tweener spots yet to be filled with satellites yet. I don't think anyone will have to worry about DISH running out of room for bandwith any time soon.

Yes, Dish/Sats has more total bandwidth available but how are they using it? They're using three slots for EA that basically duplicate WA programming. How many HD LiL's are using CONUS transponders (not an efficent use of bandwidth) vs. spot beams. If you want to receive all these slots how many dishs, and how large would they need to be, to receive all those satellites. D*'s plan is to have only one dish, the Slimline and then either a LNB that sees 99/101/103/110/119 or only 99/101/103 depending on if you want international channels or not. IIRC with E* if you're an EA customer and want international you'll still need to have a 2nd dish since international channels aren't on EA.

It isn't about E* because D* hasn't based their promises on what E* offers.

The issue is D* meeting the expectations that they set back in September of 2004 and subsequently. D* has to satisfy two types of customers: subscribers and stockholders. For the most part, they seem to have forsaken the lion's share of their HD subscribers and unless E* is striking exclusive agreements with some of these carriers, D*'s apparent failure to meet expectations that they fostered has nothing to do with E*. Certainly D*'s performance can be measured against that of its competitors in both the programming and hardware arenas, but in this case, I believe it is the expectations that they are at odds with.

OK, keeping it D* only, the 9/2004 was they'd have the capacity for 150 national HD channels, not that they'd have that number of channels. If you check out Sixto's posting at DBSTalk you can see that between what they have and the available space on D10/D11 and what they have now on the old MPEG2 stats they have capacity for 150 national HD channels. As for being late that was out of their control due to SeaLaunch and ILS both having launch system failures which caused all launches to be delayed.

Now we still have a month in 2008 to see how many they fall short of for what they said 2008 would have.

Now to ask a E* sub a question, how upset will E* subs be if Charlie doesn't get them the 150 national HD channels by end of 2008 that he said he'd have?

IIRC with E* if you're an EA customer and want international you'll still need to have a 2nd dish since international channels aren't on EA. I think the 61.5 used to have some international ,But you are right otherwise you would need dish 500 pointed at the 118.7. But last I checked E* offered way more international options then D*, So why not have their own satellite.

My biggest gripe is that D* has the capacity for 150 HD channels. That I am paying a premium for HD. I am also paying a premium for HBO & CineMax. HBO and CineMax have made more channels available in HD.

Yet, despite the channels being available, despite the capacity being there, and despite D* collecting the money from me, I'm not getting the channels.

This from the company that is constantly advertising their super HD offerings.

DirecTV has way more HD channels than cable so quit complaining.

But they have way less HD channels than Verizon FIOS.

So if we can't complain because they have more than cable, then by your own logic, we can complain when they have less than one of their competitors.

I don't think anyone does, I don't either. But it looks like you've missed my point about those HD PPV channels doing double duty as sports subscription package HD channels. As an example how about you look at the guide for this Sunday at 12PM CST, what does channels 163, 164, 165, 166, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 188, 189 show, nothing but 'upcoming'.


Honestly, I couldn't tell you. The first day I had D* back in June, I looked at the channels between 101 and 200, and I have never even glanced at them since.

I set up my favorites and then use that exclusively, checking in here from time to time to see if there are any new channels that I should consider adding to that list.

But they have way less HD channels than Verizon FIOS....Maybe in your neck of the woods. You're comparing apples with oranges. Not all FIOS is the same.

Maybe in your neck of the woods. You're comparing apples with oranges. Not all FIOS is the same.

That's true.

But nonetheless, Verizon FIOS is WELL ahead in some areas, and is quite likely to push those extra HD channels out to more and more areas.

OK, keeping it D* only, the 9/2004 was they'd have the capacity for 150 national HD channels, not that they'd have that number of channels. If you check out Sixto's posting at DBSTalk you can see that between what they have and the available space on D10/D11 and what they have now on the old MPEG2 stats they have capacity for 150 national HD channels. As for being late that was out of their control due to SeaLaunch and ILS both having launch system failures which caused all launches to be delayed.

Now we still have a month in 2008 to see how many they fall short of for what they said 2008 would have.

Now to ask a E* sub a question, how upset will E* subs be if Charlie doesn't get them the 150 national HD channels by end of 2008 that he said he'd have?

Not very, because they said UP TO 150 hd channels by years end. They will have capacity for up to 150, but that doesn't mean that they will have 150 hd channels. Do you really think that either DISH or DIRECTV have 100 national hd channels , either service? It's an advertising gimmick used by both sat providers.

As you said, EA wasn't just about adding locals, they could have just added locals at those slots but then you're locked into a two dish setup and unlike many folks here who look at having a dish farm on their roofs a badge of honor, most folks don't want that.



As you say, this will take many years for E* to get all their customers with MPEG4 hardware, what's to say that D* isn't planning the same? If you look at their recent Wall Street presentations they have a timeline where they want to get down to one common receiver for their customers.





{Good plan to reduce the total receivers down to one common one. THe problems is it will still take years to get to that point with over 17 million subs. Not to mention all the subs that still want to stay only with standard def programming. I do agree that using one common receiver would be the most efficient way to change out all subs but this is Echostar who is making the new receivers that come out every year. THey make money off of new set top boxes and they create all the cutting edge receivers and options that keep existing subs with DISH and also might attract new subs. The next big receiver is the 722k with the option to record 2 ota and 2 sat or 4 things at the same time. I 'm getting two next month. The next big receiver , the 922, will have all new menus , channel logos and sling catcher built in with limited internet access to ATT websites. It comes out next year. Obviously different companies and different strategies. } Mike D-C05




So what? All MPEG4 does is allow you to squeeze more data into then MPEG2 does in the same space. Having this all MPEG4 EA system has done what for customers, Scott has said the PQ is about the same as the old MPEG2 channels. It hasn't given E* a commanding lead in channels over D*. You could say that D* was the first to offer a all MPEG4 HD system since all their HD channels are available in MPEG4 while E* still has a number of HD channels in MPEG2 only on the 110/119 system.





{Mpeg 4 allows more efficient bandwith use of the satellites you have . Obviously having the ability to do 8 hd channels in mpeg 4 vs 3 channels in mpeg 2 , is a big plus. THis will allow them to use the exisiting satellites to add more hd in the future without having to launch more satellites . All without any degregation of the picture or audio quality. Also all mpeg 4 allows for more hard drive recording space on your receivers. ANd NO Directv was not the first to offer an all mpeg 4 service to their subs. DISH was with the eastern arc launched this year. As for the left over mpeg 2 hd channels , they will be gone by the end of the month. } MikeD-C05





Yes, Dish/Sats has more total bandwidth available but how are they using it? They're using three slots for EA that basically duplicate WA programming. How many HD LiL's are using CONUS transponders (not an efficent use of bandwidth) vs. spot beams. If you want to receive all these slots how many dishs, and how large would they need to be, to receive all those satellites. D*'s plan is to have only one dish, the Slimline and then either a LNB that sees 99/101/103/110/119 or only 99/101/103 depending on if you want international channels or not. IIRC with E* if you're an EA customer and want international you'll still need to have a 2nd dish since international channels aren't on EA.





{You do remember that DISH and Echostar are two different companies now ? Means different uses for different satellites. That means that the VIP Echostar service is using slots that DISH doesn't. I know of 85.5 as one of them that applies just to them and not to DISH. DISH will have two three lnb dishes after the 129 sat is replaced next month and up and running in January. Then all you need is a dish 1000.2 for western arc ( 110/119/129) or a dish 1000.4 for eastern arc (61.5/ 72.7/77). If you want internationals then a second dish for 118 or a dishplus for western arc that sees both 110/119/118/129 . You can easily see a side sat dish for another satellite by plugging it into the in port on the lnb on either the 1000.2 sat dish or the 1000.4 sat dish. Seems much simplier than ka and ku dbs combination of an lnb that sees 99/101/103/110/119. Easier to install too. I installed both dishes side by side and can go either with eastern or western arc. Much easier to install than the slim line 5 lnb dish for directv. As for the conus beams vs spotbeams, DISH is using older spotbeam satellites at eastern arc that were meant to be used for 110/119. So they will not work for the eastern arc as well as they would like the dish 500. But fear not both older satellites at 72.7 and 77 are going to be replaced with satellites that will have spotbeams . I believe they will be replaced by other companies that will be leased by DISH in the future. Then any use of conus beam will be for nationals . I think this shows a good use of older satellites that were basically just back ups for 110 /119 sats.} MikeD-C05


I still bet that DISH will be ALL mpeg 4 before DIRECTV is , just like they were ALL mpeg 2 way before DIRECTV was.

umm there is no such thing as VIP echstar service. Echostar owns the satellites not the customers

D* started advertising in the Spring of 2007 that they would have the capacity to have 150 HD channels.

Well, they have that capacity, and have had it for several months now.

Clearly it was their intent to drive customer perception that they would have 150 HD channels.

For them to have advertised thusly for 18+ months, have the capacity and now fail to deliver when there are many HD channels which they are not offering, is quite deceptive on their part.

This is the ad they were running way back around April, 2007:
"The Truth about HD"
YouTube - DirecTV - Only 30 Seconds

umm there is no such thing as VIP echstar service. Echostar owns the satellites not the customers

DISH Network - 1.888.825.2557 (http://www.echostarviptv.com)

DISH Network - 1.888.825.2557 (http://www.echostarviptv.com) What is this?

Thats the number for dishnetwork not echostar

umm there is no such thing as VIP echstar service.http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/111725-echostar-unveils-vip-tv.html

EchoStar Launches ViP-TV Service (http://www.xchangemag.com/hotnews/7ah23111746.html)

It may be notable that the website set up for the service gets a 404 error.

As a DirecTV subscriber and a movie lover, I was getting really mad about the premium channel situation. I had BHN and Dish last year and ditched Dish in favor of DirecTV this past spring. I paid $300+ for two HD DVRs with DirecTV up front and I guess I am in a 24 month contract. I signed up for their premier package with all the sports and movies, the extra HD channels, the magazine, etc..OK, fine.... things were going along fine but I soon realized they were making no attempt at adding HD HBOs and Max channels. Sure, they added a few of the available Showtimes and have some good Starz, but I realized that they were never going to add all 26 HBO/Max channels in HD. Heck, they don't even carry many of them now like HBO Comedy, @Max, Outermax, etc. But it would have been nice to see them add the 13 or so that they said they were going to add in fall of 2007 in a spring of 2007 press release. But nope... they never added them.

Simultaneously, FIOS was coming to my town and they also upgraded their service by adding a ton of HD, including just about all available premium channels in HD. They have everything DirecTV has, except Starz West HD. Other than that, they have all the same Starz, Showtimes, all 4 TMC channels, and most importantly, all 26 HD HBO/Max channels. They are even adding Encore HD in a couple weeks.

So I signed up with the FIOS TV service and I am very happy with the channel selection. Admittedly, the DirecTV GUI interface and DVR is better, but I will get used to the FIOS box and make due with the smaller storage space.

I also lowered my DirecTV package to the Choice Xtra with DVR + HD and dropped the additional five or six HD channels that I get now on FIOS.

I concede that DirecTV is better for the sports fan but if you are a fan of anything else, like movies, shows, etc, FIOS runs away with that one. Aside from sports the only thing FIOS is missing that DirecTV has in HD are Spike TV, CMT, VH1, MTV, and Nickelodeon. Other than that they have a lot of stuff DirecTV doesn't have (all the HBO/MAX channels), Lifetime and Lifetime movies for the ladies, Travel Channel HD, WGN America HD, etc.

I feel like the only thing I am missing, being a subscriber to DirecTV and FIOS (best of both words) is AMC, IFC, FUSE, and any of the other Rainblow channels. Sooner or later one of my providers will carry them. I hope to see Breaking Bad season two on AMC in HD.

I'd also like to see TCM in HD. I don't even think that one is coming but eventually it will/should. I'm only 33 but love the old movies, often moreso than some of the newer stuff.

FIOS isn't available to many areas (and never will be to some).

That's true.

But nonetheless, Verizon FIOS is WELL ahead in some areas, and is quite likely to push those extra HD channels out to more and more areas.

How many people have FIOS available to them? Now how many can get it with more hd channels than Directv? I am asking because I don't know, but I suspect not very many.

How many people have FIOS available to them? Now how many can get it with more hd channels than Directv? I am asking because I don't know, but I suspect not very many.

FIOS is nowhere in site for me.

FIOS isn't available to many areas (and never will be to some).

You my friend are a master of the obvious. I think we all know that FIOS' availability is limited. Nobody ever said it is available everywhere. We just say, "get FIOS TV if you can!"

The only two companies that are available "everywhere" in the lower 48 would be DirecTV and Dish Network. None of the cable companies are available everywhere.

FIOS TV just has the best offerings. Get it if you can!

DirecTV has become every bit as shady and slimy in its hype and advertising. And predictably, there are those defending them, using language such as "up to" 150 National HD's, or "the capability" to deliver 150 HD's, etc. in order to justify the company's shortcomings.

Truth is .... any reasonable person who read DirecTV's press release on D11 would have taken from that release that National HD was on the front of their priortity list. Obviously, as it pertains to D11, that simply isn't the case. They've focused on locals and RSN's and PPV's, etc., but on national HD, they've laid an egg. The D11 press release ended up just being a bunch of advertising hype and fluff, and the "undisputed leader" is coming back to the pack.

Jeff

How many people have FIOS available to them? Now how many can get it with more hd channels than Directv? I am asking because I don't know, but I suspect not very many.

FIOS serves up the same nationals in all of its available cities. Yes, some of the systems don't have all the HD channels yet, but they are working to make sure they do soon. It is pretty safe to say if you have FIOS and don't get all the HD channels available on FIOS yet, you will get them soon. My greater market didn't get them until early November, NYC had them sooner. Some areas don't get them yet but will.

We all know FIOS isn't available everywhere. I am just of the opinion that if you live in a market that has it available, get it!

What is this?

It clearly says VIP tv from Echostar. You did click on it right?

How many people have FIOS available to them?

I don't know if this is current or accurate, but here's a map supposedly showing FIOS coverage

Verizon FiOS Availability Map - dslreports.com (http://www.dslreports.com/gmaps/fios)

And here is a page from Verizon, where you can click on a state to see where it is offered:
Fios Tracker - Your Source For Verizon FiOS Coverage Data (http://www.fiostracker.com/index.php?page=coverageStateContent)

DISH Network - 1.888.825.2557 (http://www.echostarviptv.com)

Interesting link. I hadn't been following these developments.

FIOS serves up the same nationals in all of its available cities. Yes, some of the systems don't have all the HD channels yet, but they are working to make sure they do soon.

So they are all the same except where they are not? And in areas where they are not the same, they will be soon? Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know if this is current or accurate, but here's a map supposedly showing FIOS coverage

Verizon FiOS Availability Map - dslreports.com (http://www.dslreports.com/gmaps/fios)

And here is a page from Verizon, where you can click on a state to see where it is offered:
Fios Tracker - Your Source For Verizon FiOS Coverage Data (http://www.fiostracker.com/index.php?page=coverageStateContent)

The map in the first one is not accurate, as you suggested it may not be. Half of my county is missing from the coverage area, even though it has been here for a few weeks. Also, as far as checking the FIOS page, I have heard that calling them gives you more accurate information by as much as a couple weeks.

Edit- I don't think that FIOS coverage page is a Verizon page. You are better off going to the real verizon page at verizon.com/fios

So they are all the same except where they are not? And in areas where they are not the same, they will be soon? Thanks for clearing that up.

Acme Fast Food has 1000 stores across the country.

Acme Fast Food has the EXACT SAME pricing at all of its stores....

$1.00 fries, $2.00 drink, $3.00 burger.

Acme Fast Food keeps these prices the same at all locations. But it is awfully hard to change the prices on items all in the same day.

So Acme Fast Food changes the prices to $1.25, $2.25, and $3.25 in stages.

They may change 300 stores on day 1, 300 stores on day 2, 300 stores on day 3, and 100 stores on day 4.

But in the end, Acme Fast Food has consistent pricing of food items.

Just because they are going though a price change phase, doesn't make that any less true.

FIOS TV, has a consistent channel lineup (except the local stations) across all of their locations. This is different than Time Warner for example, that might have Fox News on 37 in one city and 53 in another. Fox News is on the same channel number in all FIOS cities. If they are missing a few channels to the newly added channels, REST ASSURED, those cities will be getting them soon.

Simple enough to understand? I must have overestimated the readers as a whole as far as reading comprehension on my last post.

Well we don't have FIOS here (AZ) and there are no plans of it coming anytime soon, plus I'm a huge sports fan, so D* it is for me.

So here in CT, the 4th densest state in population, there is ONE city with FIOS!

So here in CT, the 4th densest state in population, there is ONE city with FIOS! gee maybe because VERIZON only serves 1 city????(ATT is your local telco)

Versus HD Split tomorrow. The Ski Channel VOD Launches on Christmas.

That the only thing I know.

So here in CT, the 4th densest state in population, there is ONE city with FIOS!

Connecticut is not FIOS worthy.

gee maybe because VERIZON only serves 1 city????(ATT is your local telco)

Thanks for proving my point!

Connecticut is not FIOS worthy.

Ah.......yeah.:rolleyes:

Enough about FIOS and the rest.

Back to DirecTV HD speculation.

HD channel speculation?

Well, it appears that we are going to pick up 1 channel tomorrow, that being the split of the Versus/Golf channel. Doesn't do anything for me and there goes one of the precious few HD channel slots.

I think D* needs to add about 8 HD channels ASAP. At least 4 more out of the HBO/Cinemax packages, and then 4 more of the "cable channels" like Comedy Central, Travel, etc.

Even that falls woefully short of what I believe D* was teasing us with for the past 18-20 months.

I am interested in the verbiage of "NEED" vs "WANT"; as in you or we WANT vs DirecTV's NEEDS; if you stick with the use of the word NEED; please explain why they NEED to do anything. No need to explain WANT as I can easily understand that.

I used the word "need" because D* is delivering far fewer channels than what they have been strongly implying they would be by the end of 2008.

This is combined with their cable competition delivering more channels than what D* expected them to by this time.

Thus instead of D* leading cable in HD, their 2007 commercial even noted that they had 3X the capacity of cable, they are trailing.

Thus for D* to have any credibility and to be competitive in several large markets, I believe they need to add several HD channels. I said 8 channels, but it should be more than that. More like 15+ channels.

For if D* goes into 2009 not even meeting their 2007 targets, now sitting 4th in national HD channels, and coming off of a quarter when they added almost nothing, they are going to be hard to take seriously as a leading provider of HD.

I wonder what the research was to say "leading cable"? That is very ambiguous to say the least; it could be a avg number as not ALL cable systems are equal; they do lead any other available system in my metro area. I think NEED is a very variable term; if they are accomplishing their goals in the correct fashion, while gaining subscribers, making money AND keeping the stock holders happy; them more power to them; they are in it for the long run; and sometimes some things just happen to change plans and make things take a bit longer than originally anticipated cause this sure isn't a case of just being able to connect cables and flip switches. If slowing down makes them stronger in the long term then I am all for it. Although I see some channels I would like to have in HD, I do not yet see many that I can't live without; especially those that are showing programming I can get elsewhere; like reruns / syndicated programming / non-first run stuff, etc.

Why don't you tell us what you really think?

BTW, profanity is the last refuge of an uneducated person!

I have to speak up....

with all the fighting and chaos in threads like these, threads I argued in for the last few years bashing or licking a$$ of Dish and DirecTV (each had their 15 minutes of fame in the HD realm), I have to say it feels really good to wake up to FIOS TV each morning with the wonderful selection! I have everything I have ever cried or complained about. I have everything you guys are complaining about (I still have DirecTV for a while as secondary due to the contract but may just keep it since it isn't that much without the premiums). I feel good. Not because you guys don't have what you want by any means. I feel good, because I have what I want and feel like my squeeky wheel got the oil. Bitching and bitching and bitching paid off in a round about way for me. I had to get yet another provider, but I have it now. All 26 HBO/MAX channels in HD makes a world of difference. I forgot how much I liked HBO Comedy (had it for a decade in SD with cable).

I am by no means saying FIOS is all roses. I won't get into it fully now, but there are downsides to having both FIOS TV and FIOS Internet. I have fought with support over this. I will be the first one to admit that FIOS call center staff are d-bags. But I knew that going in. It is worth pushing my way through the BS if the end result is a good service with few calls to support. Yes, it is true, the DVR sucks. Yes, the guide is in 4:3. Yes, the storage space is less than I am used to. Yes, it dips into your Internet bandwidth to use On Demand (which is insane for such a provider and my biggest complaint, along with the Internet in general).

Sorry to be a douche about this.... but I am just tickled about the channels in comparison. This is what all providers should be. Actually, everything in HD and no SD is what every provider should be, but this is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the pack.

Yes, DirecTV needs to add more now. That was my complaint all summer. If they want to compete they need to step it up big time. The biggest problem with them is that they have made promises that they have not kept (ie - June 2007 press release announcing approx 13 HBO/MAX HD channels as of Fall 2007, but it still hasn't happened).

This thread has steared way past speculation of DirecTV HD additions into competitive analysis, the debate between want vs. need, and even a few personal attacks.

I'm moving it to the war zone. That doesn't make it free-reign. Keep it clean or we'll close it.

Go ahead and close it. I never follow a thread once it is moved. This is the last time I will bother to check in on it.

Go ahead and close it. I never follow a thread once it is moved. This is the last time I will bother to check in on it.

But you are a (Supporting) Founding Father of this site. Who cares if the thread is moved? You can continue on the discussion.