Hello satguys,
I've looked around and you guys seem to know lots of things about DVB technology.
Lately I searched the net for a very good HDTV DVB-S2 card and I've found out that the majority of the cards usually found out in stores here in Europe are build around old and sometimes obsolete tuner and demodulator chips.
After nights and nights of "googling" I hopefully was able to select two tech solution coming from manufacturers like: Tevii, DVBWOrld, TBS and Prof-Tuners and namely either Montage Technology TS2020/DS3000 or
STMicroelectronics STB6100/ST0903. Unfortunately no Broadcom solution on the market.
Now some of you already tested such cards and I hope you can share your experiences.
What can you guys say about these two solutions? Which one is a winner and if possible explain your opinion? :confused:

I have only tried the DVBWorld receiver with the "Montage Technology TS2020/DS3000".

From my experience this receiver is the most sensitive tuner that I have ever used.
I have used the Coolsat 6000, Pansat 3500 / 2700, Twinhan 102G, and the BroadLogic 2030.

The TS2020/DS3000 combination by its specifications is able to supports symbol rates from:
1 Msps to 45 Msps -> QPSK (45 Msps), 8PSK (45 Msps), 16APSK (36 Msps) and 32APSK (28 Msps) modulations.
(A maximum data rate of 130 Mbps)

The feature that I like the most about the Montage DS3000 demodulator is that it has a "Fast blind scan" feature,
but I don't know of any cards that are using it for a full "blind scan" feature yet.
(DVBWorld mentioned in another thread that it might be possible to implement this feature on their receivers (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-pc-dvb-discussion/130991-dvb-world-dvb-s2-33.html#post2074103)).
I don't know how important a "blind scan" feature is in Germany, but in North America it is very important.

The DVBWorld receiver makes use of that feature slightly,
in the sense that you can enter an approximation of the correct symbol rate and it will lock the correct symbol rate.
I have managed to find 6 symbol rates that will cover symbol rates from 1000 - 30000 kSym/s.
( I have never found any signals over 30000 kSym/s on the North America Ku-Band)

Here is an example:

Entered SR [Will reliably lock a symbol rate between]
1400 [ 1000 - 2170]
2400 [ 1600 - 3600]
3700 [ 2500 - 5900]
8000 [ 5900 - 12000]
14000 [10000 - 21000]
17000 [13000 - 30000]

Overall I am very happy with the DVBWorld receiver that uses the Montage TS2020/DS3000,
and I have not seen any issues with it. When DVBWorld adds a full "blind scan" to the receiver I will consider it a perfect PC tuner.
(It locks low symbol rate transponders that are normally hard for receivers to do and it locks low quality signals that my other receiver can not)

Here are two threads that may be interesting to you:
Prof 7301, 7500 and 8000 Tuners (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-pc-dvb-discussion/191655-prof-7301-7500-8000-tuners.html)
DVBWorld DVB-S2 (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-pc-dvb-discussion/130991-dvb-world-dvb-s2.html)

I think you're going to find it hard to get objective reports from people who have tried both chipsets. The STM chips have been out in products for some time, while I have only recently seen the Montage chips become available in cards. I had originally been waiting to buy one of each, but I got impatient this past October and bought a couple of Prof units (7301 and 7500 - they use the same tuner and demod).

I've been very impressed with the STM chips. My experience, along with a number of others, is the Prof units lock low CNR signals much better than previous generation devices. I have the TechnoTrend S2-3200 and DVB World 2104 (the CX24116 version) and they are simply not in the same class. The new STM chips have a blindscanning capability that I have running under Linux, although this is not yet ready for prime time, and I am seeing evidence they can at least recognize S2 signals beyond 8PSK.

While I have been testing the Prof cards very thoroughly, I have no information at all about the Montage chips. You probably will have to wait for others to give cards based on that chipset the same thorough evaluation. Having now purchased four of the Prof units, I am not in a big hurry to buy something else without a good reason. If you want to buy something now, get one of the Prof cards. They are a major improvement over the past.

Mohaator

I dont't think your Poll question set is adequate, since most Sat Receiver manufacturers do not use all chipsets form the same supplier in a single product. I.e., they may use a tuner from Sharp or Samsung, a Demod from CX, and a universal video processor to decode MPEG signal. Apart from that, its hard to find someone who have a full collection of all newest receiver products and is professional enough to test compare them all.

Besides, what is good in Germany, may be bad news for North American signal reception, since FTA is very different creature in Europe in many aspects. Have you considered current Technotrend brand products?

thanks for the quick replies,

I own a Dreambox DM800 as well as an Azbox Premium and I use to do a lot of interesting things with them but some weeks ago a friend of mine came by to visit me and told me that he's got an HTPC with an Tevii 470 card (before he had a TT-S2 3200 and he sold it on e-bay because he wasn't happy with it) and the SD, HD channels switch faster than my both stb's and I start wandering and decided to build up a HTPC. Was all up and ready and I got a TechniSat SkyStar 2 HD ( I wanted to get a Prof Revolution 8000 but I think they are not on the market until may 2010) and I am not impressed with the image quality I get over NVIDIA 9800 GT HDMI output on my 52" LCD, the channels switch in 2-3 sec and the card is getting very hot, and I decided to get rid of it and now I look to get a new DVB-S2 card.

I've had a Prof 7301 for a few months now and I like it. I have it in my htpc using Dvbviewer and don't have any heat problems. You can see in my equipment list some of the devices I've used, some I still have connected. The first thing I noticed about the Prof was the quick channel changing speed in Dvbviewer, quite a bit quicker than my other cards, less than a second for sure. I had been watching with the Prof quite a bit after I first got it then switched to my Azbox elite and the channel changes seemed very long. Of course the Az channel change times are reasonable but the Prof is that much quicker that it is really noticable.
I don't have any test equipment to compare devices nor the expertise to do it but just from having used a lot of dvb cards in the past I would say the Prof 7301 is the best one I've had yet.
I use an ATI 3870HD video card through a Pioneer 1019 AV receiver to a 42" Sony LCD.

I see you don't want to vote for my poll.....
Has anybody got an Prof Revolution 8000 DVB-S2 PCIe card up to now? As far as I understood the card was on the market but it's been redesigned at the moment.

Prof 8000 was never offered on the marker, and no-one knows if it will be. Your Poll sounds like a sales push for Prof to me. Why don't you look at newest (not older like you did) Technotrend offerings designed for your area signal reception, and let us know your opinion, may be present Technotrend cards survey - surprised? ;) You'd need to ask moving your thread to PC DVB section to get more interest and replies.

Mohaator - I haven't done the poll because it asks which chipset is better and I have only tested one. It's likely very few people have tried the top two on your list. If you get any responses it will be more of a straw poll of who bought what. That's a popularity contest, not a meaningful measure on which is better.

Zamar - I don't see anyone selling here, just people honestly describing how the card they purchased functions for them. As you have not tried any of them, I guess there's not much you have to offer to the request posted: "Now some of you already tested such cards and I hope you can share your experiences."

Pendragon

I guess your assumption is based on high school physics course as well? :)

Thanks for your great contribution to this forum and my education in particular! :up

Mohatoor

Here we go: The Best DVB-S2 Card Poll (http://viaccessfree.biz/forum/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=121) from a European region, where people use this kind of cards a lot more. Keep in mind however, all Polls are subjective and have some regional influence based on various local factors. I don't see DVB World products listed in that poll, not sure if they're sold in that region and under what brand name.

I asked you to present a review of Techotrend DVB product offerings, since you marked to live in Germany, and TT Budget S2-1600 (http://www.dvbshop.net/index.php/cat/c467_TechnoTrend-DVB-S-S2.html) is reported to be excellent budget card in similar price range as the cards others mentioned here (I like a lot both Prof and DVB World brands), which also employs ST0903 demodulator, newer tuner and PCI chipset models, and no RF noise emitting high end voltage multiplier chip to supply clean power to LNBs (very important for catching sensitive DVB-S2 signals) and also to a motor if you have one. Most of such card users would not have a separate motor and LNB power supplies, but instead would usually power them all from the card, making some DVB-S2 signals reception impossible due to extra RF noise generated by some cards' power circuits.

As to your poll request, don't be upset, just think about it: why would people take polls on requests from someone, who never contributed to this forum? Here is a counter-request: are you up to the Technotrend Cards review task? May be you can look through German forums and DVB sites where such reviews are published in German and let us know? :) DVB Card product diversity on North American market is highly desirable, and by posting your review you'll show appreciation of the info you got from this forum as you mentioned and people contributing to it.

I guess you assumption is based on high school physics course as well? :)

It was based only on the observation that others contributing to this thread replied to OP's request to share their experiences with current generation PC tuners chipsets. Since you happen to have such a unit, perhaps you can relate how it works for you?

I agree this thread should be moved to the appropriate subforum.

I guess one would need a Sub to request Video-on-Demand service... :) Btw, I think humor lifts up and dissolves that heavy smoky FTA image carefully crafted by major broadcasters. Don't you?

For me to post a comparison test btw locally offered card products based on the above demods would be useless, since I don't have independent power supply to the motor and LNBs so far, and some of the above cards DVB-S2 signal reception sucks without it as tested. On the other hand, most users wouldn't have independent power lines either (since it costs more and requires a lot more efforts and qualification), but in that case it would be a comparison of cards overall design and key components quality instead of artificial comparison of merely their demods performance as asked. And I don't want to compromise any of them even unintentionally to encourage more diverse products offering.

moved to pc card forum

Wooo man I feel some attitude here.
I thought It would be fun but if you find it so offensive I ask the admin to remove the poll.
Actually I was just curious to see how the specialists would start to exemplify how those card work ... and dissect those hardware specs ........ well it happened that you reacted quite the opposite I expected.
Don't worry guys, I am not trying to push anybody's sales, and in the end why would I want to do that if I am not in the business :rolleyes:
And if you suggest that I haven't looked up my forums, well rest assure I searched and read probably all that can be read and acknowledge all kinds of views about all DVB-S2 cards on the market.
I'll try to select some reviews from some forums I'm registered
dvbshop.net's forum (http://www.dvbshop24.com/index.php?/kunena/?Itemid=0)
dvbforum (http://www.dvbforum.com/)
dvbmagic (http://forum.dvbmagic.de/)
Probably it will be pretty difficult to find some good reviews for tt cards since most of the users in those forums are just unsatisfied customers that got into troubles and post up asking for help. And most of the tech-savvy do just chit chat or try outsmart their counterparts and so on(yes it happens everywhere).
Anyway I looked upon the cards on the market and found out that most of the budget cards on the EU market are rubbish and that only from 150 Euro up you can get something to keep (look here (http://www.vdr-wiki.de/wiki/index.php/DVB-S2_Budget-PCI-Karten)).
How could one distinguish from the market the "bad apples"? It's simply by just counting the unsatisfied users posting on forums and I found out a lot to be disappointed with old TT designs.
Actually looking closer you'll find the design and hardware of those somehow premium targets (PCI and PCIe cards like Mystique TiX range or Media Pointer cars) are quite similar or sometimes under those still being good within the "budget" range, which is in my opinion up to 100 € (makes like TeVii, TBS, Prof and so on). As for TT -3200 and 1600 I hesitated to buy because of the history of the company. It doesn't matter what they build and bundled now, people remember when there was no support for their products and TT cards were e-bayed for nothing and I have to say that at the moment their support is not great at all.
In the end I might order a new TT-3200 and see how it works on my HTPC.

In the end I might order a new TT-3200 and see how it works on my HTPC.See, what I'm talking about? ;)

So you say everyone is complaining about TT products? :D
"The TT S2-1600 is a 2nd generation DVB-S2 PCI card with great performance (supports Symbol rates upto 60MSPS)...I have four of them and they work perfectly...so I highly recommend the S2-1600 (http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-media@vger.kernel.org/msg11683.html)".

Did you look at the Poll results I linked above? Not trustworthy enough for you, or ain't representative enough? Or to the contrary?
How about a Review of TT Budget 1600? Just list all bad points, since there is nothing good about it. Keep in mind, people are not used here to like bashing sat products.

Sorry, my time got captured by higher priorities. But better late than never.


I asked you to present a review of Techotrend DVB product offerings, since you marked to live in Germany, and TT Budget S2-1600 (http://www.dvbshop.net/index.php/cat/c467_TechnoTrend-DVB-S-S2.html) is reported to be excellent budget card in similar price range as the cards others mentioned here (I like a lot both Prof and DVB World brands), which also employs ST0903 demodulator, newer tuner and PCI chipset models, ...

The TT-1600 may be an excellent unit, but not because of its 'newer' tuner. I believe we have beat this horse before, but the tuner chip inside is the STV6110, which is unquestionably newer than the previous STB6100 model. However the design objective for the STV6110 was lower power, not performance. This make some sense for a USB tuner, but those with a background in solid-state RF will likely recognize the trade-offs - poorer phase noise is the apropos facet here. The STV6110 levels are such that this is not likely to be much of a detriment for 8PSK, but a nasty headache for 16PSK and 32PSK. The older, higher power STB6100 is more capable in this respect.

I believe there is some question as to what extent the STV0903 has been validated against these higher order modulations, but the Linux driver does enable these features. I have played a little with this and have had some success in partially locking what may in fact be a 16PSK signal with the Prof tuners (STB6100 + STV0903). We need to start getting prepared for this.


... and no RF noise emitting high end voltage multiplier chip to supply clean power to LNBs (very important for catching sensitive DVB-S2 signals) and also to a motor if you have one. Most of such card users would not have a separate motor and LNB power supplies, but instead would usually power them all from the card, making some DVB-S2 signals reception impossible due to extra RF noise generated by some cards' power circuits.


I believe Zamar is making a veiled reference to reports in Russian forum(s) that claim certain species of the Prof tuners have a marginal power supply that requires a modification for maximum LNB performance. I have read crude translations of these posts and developed a rather bad case of skepticism, as it was readily apparent that the claims were made by people with thin backgrounds and insufficient equipment to support their assertions. But since bad ideas never die, I decided to investigate this earlier today before I got trapped in other matters.

I ran the tuner inputs for both a Prof 7500 and DVB World 2104 tuners separately to my spectrum analyzer, terminated in 75 ohms. These units are both USB, which seems a reasonable comparison. I 'tuned' both to both polarities and with/without 22 kHz tones. None of that made a lot of difference in the plots. I ended up going with 18 V polarization and no tone.

I have plotted both 0 - 5 MHz and 0 - 1.5 GHz for both tuners in the following files attached:

7500-5MHz.gif
2104-5MHz.gif
7500-1.5GHz.gif
2104-1.5GHz.gif

These are interesting results with no clear victor. In the 5 MHz BW, the Prof tuner has a naughty spur around 300 kHz, much larger than anything coming out of the DVB World unit. This does look like an insufficiently filtered switching power supply, but absolutely child's play to handle at that frequency and level. Any switch or LNB deriving power from this without a sufficiently sized capacitor is going to be vulnerable to a lot more problems than this. In the 1.5 GHz BW, the DVB World has misbehaviors at around 500 MHz, while the Prof has none. Kind of a draw in my mind, but no smoking gun given the levels of the spurs.

I then hacked a LNB into the equation to see how a DC load and IF source affects the power supply's noise spectra. I did my best to bridge the SA so it did not cause much of an impedance mismatch, but at these frequencies, this is only a best effort attempt. I then fashioned a quick 'anechoic chamber' for my Invacom Ku quatro LNBF with a waveguide and terminator. Nothing perfect here either, but both tuners got equal treatment. I tuned them up as before and took the same noise spectra in the following files:

7500-5MHz-LNB.gif
2104-5MHz-LNB.gif
7500-1.5GHz-LNB.gif
2104-1.5GHz-LNB.gif

Now we're starting to see some separation and it's not looking good for the DVB World unit. The Prof has lots of spurs rising above a reasonably low noise floor on the 5 MHz plot. I would have liked to have seen better. But look at the DVB World 5 MHz plot - the floor is above virtually the whole Prof spectra, and I'm not even considering the peaks. Tsck, tsck. Both units seem to have little influence on the 1.5 GHz plots, which is dominated by the Invacom's noise floor. No spurs of any obvious consequence. In the end it looks like both are decent for FTA use. Some warts but nothing that would presume detrimental effects. I'd personally give the Prof slightly better marks.

Sorry zamar, I think your Russian buddies need to reconsider their theories. If their LNBs are so bad that the Prof tuner's noise power spectrum is causing reception problems, they are only seeing the tip of the iceberg (no pun intended).

zamar
Touchdown man,
I was sure you're gonna pick that up. "In the end I might order a new TT-3200 and see how it works on my HTPC." :D Yeah man I will probably order that card along with the other cards that interests me and after testing them I'll keep the better one.
How about you stop poking me around and do some constructive criticism, I ain't bashing no product.
The poll you linked I've seen it already, but lemme tell you something it's pretty old, and those results were not always so favorable to the tt's. Technisat's Skystar S2 used to be up front until TT's were renewed and Russians started to buy the new card so the poll changed
At the moment the best buy according to heise.de is Technisat Skystar HD2 - the card I had and the TT-1600 doesn't seem to be preferred in Germany at list, and I said already why. Probably is also because the card wasn't officially überall tested yet.
Why don't you look up here in the dvbshop forum (http://www.dvbshop24.com/index.php?/kunena/?Itemid=0&catid=1&func=listcat)
I am certain you will find something of interest for you and I promise to post some reviews myself, the only free time I have is past 10 PM when my daughter is asleep:sleeo .

Have a look here (http://community.livejournal.com/dvbexperts/756.html) is a short test with 7301 and 1600 and SS2-must be translated.

Mohaator

I red the so called "test" you referred to in September, when it was posted on that free site allowing to post anything, and then promoted on a popular forum by Prof's Sales Manager, that's how I found about it. :) If posted on that forum, it would be harshly criticized and removed immediately as a marketing material. Its not the 1st time similar promo "reports" were used, and they also were subject to massive sharp critique. I can post numerous examples of typical user reactions to such "reports", if you want. ;)

I'm asking you to find a professional comparison or sole review of TT Budget 1600 in German press, say similar to PC Magazine. We can validate, how independent that publication is.

As was already noted, such consumer Polls are of low value for many reasons:

- people often don't have several card makes of similar tech level to compare;
- results are "historical" in nature - the longer a model is sold on that market, the more people would have a chance to buy and test it;
- there may be numerous biases traditional to that market;
- etc.

On the other hand, many so called consumer Reviews can also be of low value to the public:

- some are evident sales push published or paid for by the manufacturer;
- many are prepared by non-qualified users who can't adequately test product capabilities;
- some are prepared by narrow pros, who test them in ideal non-realistic for a typical consumer working conditions, and often concentrate on their subject of interest.

That's why I ask you to present a TT card review posted by a reputable source, which usually publishes this kind of reviews for a variety of similar products over long time frame and stays behind its own reputation, like a PC Mag. Its next to impossible to find such review in NA, but German press would definitely pay attention to their own manufacturer's products given huge local popularity of Sat TV. May be you want to present a review of another more popular card? Don't be shy. :up

If their LNBs are so bad that the Prof tuner's noise power spectrum is causing reception problems, they are only seeing the tip of the iceberg (no pun intended).Thanks for the interesting report! Actually, LNB supply over there seems to be plentiful in variety of quality levels as reported, and all popular European LNB models are certainly present on the market decently priced, while not available here. I'm not sure either that people you mentioned as my buddies don't know what they're talking about. Its a well known fact that cheap voltage multipliers used in many consumer sat PC Cards or drawing power via PCI from low end RF noisy weak PC Power Supplies often cause constant headache in sensitive signal reception.

Its obvious, any such tests as the above presented may be subject to some setup variations, changing circumstantial biases, mood, intent to manipulate opinions of unaware or less qualified users, and such. Just looked through previous forum posts comparing current Prof's products with previous gen. DVB World's, and here we go ;):


I was chasing feeds today instead of hanging on the roof with my toroids or messing with drivers. This is only an early data point, but I wasn't particularly impressed with the Prof 7500 (USB) unit vs. a DVB World 2104 (USB) on Windows. The link margin was a little thin and we had very high winds. The 2104 did the better job holding lock out of a splitter feeding both.


Still with the carriers jumping up and down, the DVB World tuners did an excellent job holding lock. I only had one Prof 7500 running as a comparison off the same splitter as one of the DVB World units, and while it did well, it lost lock more frequently...

Still I don't subscribe to fan boy clubs that declare any technology more than six months old to be garbage. The CX24116s in the DVB World units perform very well for me and newer units will have to establish their reputation by direct comparison with real signals, not by spec sheets and not by 14-year-olds posting on forums. At the moment the score on acid signal tests is only DVB World 1 and Prof 0.


Part of the problem I'm having is I've spent so much time tuning, aligning and tweaking my dishes, switches and distribution system that for the most part there aren't many feeds that are on the edge for me. I have a Pansat 9200HD which has a reputation for being deaf on DVB-S. Works fine for me. The TechnoTrend S2-3200, DVB World 2104 and Prof 7301/7500 seem to get nearly everything I throw at them. I initially seduced myself into believing the Prof units were locking better than the older tuners, but I'm not sure any more...

High winds and a weak uplink had me licking my chops. But the Prof 7500 was undisputedly worse than the DVB World 2104.


I took my smallest Ku dish (a T90 toroid) with a crummy LNB and moved it slightly off 83 W as necessary to generate poor CNRs. The target was RTV and I came up with the following abilities for locking from best to worst:

Prof 7301/Prof 7500 (pretty much a tie)
DVB World 2104
TechnoTrend S2-3200
Pansat 9200HD

Even when all the other tuners had lost lock and were capturing nothing viewable, the Profs were still capturing perfect transport streams.

Here is the info on both mentioned tuners to compare from the manufacturer:


STB6100 (http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/10839.pdf) supports QPSK/8PSK/16APSK/32APSK modulations, and low power STV6110A (http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/14948.pdf) supports QPSK/8PSK. See Tuner Specs for details, and look through STMicro (http://www.st.com/stonline/stappl/productcatalog/app?path=/pages/stcom/PcStComDocumentTableView.showTechlitTreeDocs&level0=131&level1=1424&level2=1003&level3=0&doctype=4&doctypecode=bd&enttype=4&tname=TL_DATA_BRIEFING_TREE_X_DOC&latest=N) site for more info.

This is my take on the subject:
I'd like more card brands to be presented and actively promoted in NA by their makers. Our task as I see it is to encourage such diversity. Let consumer decide, which product better suites local fans needs. Certainly not worthy paper battles or a bad mood. Lets not forget, all these products are just for a brief entertainment, they will work for you a couple hours a day one way or another. :)

I have to say that at the moment TT support is not great at all.As to support issue you mentioned, its not that better here either. In contrast with larger international corps, sat product importers either don't provide support, or its unqualified. There are rare exceptions though. Support usually comes from forums like this one, where experienced users and often manufacturer's or importer's staff provide support undisclosed to the benefit of many. That's cheaper and less problematic legally. Based on my experience, support from German card makers is primitive at best, as well as their web sites content. Prof and DVB World offer somewhat better support to the end user, and have more informative websites. Product Manuals and Help files should be enough for the beginner. Basically, many e-mail requests for sat card support are in fact reports of hardware and software issues, hence there isn't much for the company to say other than they're are working to improve or that the user is doing something wrong (if they don't work to improve). I found DVB World has made notable progress in actually improving their software and even hardware to meet users requests instead of just denials. When it comes to overall sat system setup, no manufacturer can or be willing provide better support than a forum like SatelliteGuys. Detail reports are posted on sponsored by product importers sites on how users can mod their receivers to eliminate failures (and decrease flow of warranty claims).

What do you need support for after all your research? ;) Would it be faster just search forums to get an answer, as most such problems are prone to keep popping up?

That's why I ask you to present a TT card review posted by a reputable source, which usually publishes this kind of reviews for a variety of similar products over long time frame and stays behind its own reputation, like a PC Mag. Its next to impossible to find such review in NA, but German press would definitely pay attention to their own manufacturer's products given huge local popularity of Sat TV. May be you want to present a review of another more popular card? Don't be shy. :up

I am only aware of a handful of FTA rags, but the ones I have come across are largely cheerleaders for the manufacturers. This is hardly surprising or unique to this domain. Without a substantial subscription base to pay for the lights, reviewers are normally beholden to the vendors for at least product to review, and in many cases advertising revenue.

High-end audio in NA quickly comes to mind as an obvious case in point. Performing a quick storefront census, I see in every city and country I travel to a good selection of high-end audio/video saloons, but even in the Far East and Europe, only a smattering of FTA-style retailers. The obvious conclusion is people spend more money on high-end audio/video than FTA. Nevertheless it is next to impossible to find a publication that reads much differently than a comic book. There are obvious biases and unprofessional methodologies. Even the ones that appear to have staff capable of attaching a scope probe wander through curious conniptions to justify in technical terms what the 'golden ears' claim to be hearing. They always seem to find something nice to say about a product and rarely hammer the manufacturer for 'gold-plating' or shoddy construction.

Professional reviews are a pipe dream in most domains and FTA is no exception. When I find one, I normally start by questioning its veracity because that is normally required. Instead I am led towards integrating the experiences of a number of qualified users where one can form useful assessments.


I'm not sure either that people you mentioned as my buddies don't know what they're talking about. Its a well known fact that cheap voltage multipliers used in many consumer sat PC Cards often cause constant headache in sensitive signal reception.

Link please to the well known fact?

I at least put my cards on the table and presented direct measurements that allow anyone to interpret the results for themselves. They can also be readily duplicated by others with access to the proper equipment. On the other hand, the claims I have read on this subject show a lack of understanding of any form of the scientific method, controls or even a methodology that establishes cause and effect. There is often an immense amount of detail on the processes of effecting circuit board modifications with at best a cursory description of the test process. SQ results (why not real CNRs?) are then provided from tests done hours or days apart (enough said on that). No attempt is made to isolate other possible variables.

My switch setup provides power to motors, switches and LNBs from non-receiver sources for reasons that have nothing to do with reception conditions. When I read the reports of this issue for the first time, I was skeptical. But I had a 100' cable lying around, so I pulled it from one of my dishes to my 'lab' and went about directly connecting it to a Prof 7500 and 7301 and then substituting a power inserter with an outboard supply. The spectrum analyzer off a splitter showed the same thing the Prof tuners were reporting on Windows: no difference. While I went on to try some more complex tests with switches, I found it striking that such a simple test seems to be completely lacking in these forums. The phenomenon of people attacking problems with the tools they have, right or wrong, is widespread in the technical world and in this specific case is sometimes referred to as the "solder jerks".


Its obvious, any such tests as the above presented may be subject to some setup variations, changing circumstantial biases, mood, unaware or less qualified user opinion manipulation, and such. Just looked through previous forum posts on this matter, and here we go ;):

I publish my results as I find them and try to be honest about how equipment performs, even if it hurts that I may have bought a pig-in-a-poke. I find it interesting you spent three of four quotes of me relating to a single incident testing Prof vs. DVB World tuners when my roof-mounted dishes were being buffeted by winds higher than they had ever previously experienced. I wasn't happy to see that my older DVB World tuners beat the Profs hands down, but I reported it nevertheless. However I did speculate at the time this could be something as simple as an AGC setting in the driver, which appears now to be the case.

What you failed to provide was the balanced perspective, because I have reported both the good and the bad when it comes to the Prof and DVB World tuners. I still use all four of each. It's easy to take a series of quotes out of context and present them in a manner which leads to unintended or incorrect conclusions. You have been guilty of this in the past:



RG59 has electrical ‘voltage drop per foot’ to a direct current 0.06 V.

RG6 has electrical ‘voltage drop per foot’ to a direct current 0.04 V. (see the characteristics of the cables)

Voltage drop depends on resistance of the cable. Encyclopedia of Physics states that resistanceof a long cylinder or wire is given by:

R=ρ× L/A,

where L is a length; A is a cross section area or diameter; ρ – resistivity of the material.( Ohm/meter)

That is determines maximum length of cable between LNB and receiver (power source in that case) 125 feet.

125 feet × 0.04V/foot = 5 volts. (difference between 13V and 18V)

Technically since everything has a tolerance so that LNB seems to switch to the Left hand polarization even with lower voltage."[/I]

Question:

One question seems obvious from the above calculation is that if one's coax cable length exceeds 100 - 125 ft, he would need to use a powered switch to supply stabilized power to the LNBs independently of the receiver. The switch itself would need to be located no further than 100 ft from both the receiver and each LNB.

In Germany we are used to have very good support from the manufacturers we buy products from and this works as a general rule around here. For two years every manufacturer should offer support of any kind for its customers. When a marketed products isn't good supported it doesn't have a long life here. TT's support was bad and that's why it was sanctioned. My friend with the old 3200 told me he wanted some help with the remote control and all he got was a huge phone bill for calls to the "TT support center" Their level 3 support office was located in Poland and it sucked because they kept asking him whether he had batteries installed in that remote control.:down If it wouldn't had been saved by Kathrein well...... you know what it would have happened.
I have some colleagues at the office that said that are interested into the new Technotrend products. I've seen as well in dvbshop24 forum that dvbshop have good sales at the moment with TT, but I think they have a even better sales with the Tevii 470 card. ( if I'm not mistaken it is OEM prod by DVBWorld or?)
At the moment I am not aware of any good TT-1600 review on Stiftung Warentest or any other official good testers. Anyway like I said I'll look into and share everything I find of interest.

Mohaator

Some Tevii cards are designed and made by TBS Tech and some by DVB World in CN, but firmware is customized and further detailed by Tevii. This one seems to be OEM TBS made. These are all of the same old school sat guys in charge of all 3 companies. DVB World boss seems well-versted in software and hardware development and own branding, TBS has larger OEM base but weaker own brand sales, and Tevii is quite good in marketing and software refinement for own label cards. There are always exceptions to any rule, as you know. You can find by the card mac address on the web, who is the manufacturer. MAC is 00-BD-18-XX-XX-XX for DVB World OEM products (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-pc-dvb-discussion/130991-dvb-world-dvb-s2-29.html#post2008276). They said to supply OEM cards (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-pc-dvb-discussion/130991-dvb-world-dvb-s2-29.html#post2008235) to Acorp, Nextrom, PBI, SatStar2, Terratec, Tevii...

You are right, Remotes are often less covered, and every time I take an STB Remote, I want to reprogram it better. That's why I prefer to use 3d party Macro capable Programmable Learning Remotes. But they don't drive an STB along the straight line, only sequentially one step at a time.

I take it you're in no mood to present TT Budget S2-1600 Review? It is made with 0903 demod in its heart, and is quite compelling card. ;)

Pendragon

I don't see anything taken out of context, and no conclusions were drawn except that we don't know exactly what motivates people to do or write different things at different times. You say to be motivated by the pleasure of discovery only? How do you plea? :)

I don't see anything taken out of context, and no conclusions were drawn except that we don't know exactly what motivates people to do or write different things at different times. You say to be motivated by the pleasure of discovery only? How do you plea? :)

I didn't see your original point and it's not getting any clearer.

Regardless I don't write different things like this because of my moods. The Prof 7301 & 7500 Windows driver has an AGC setting that is susceptible to LOS on rapid fades compared to that of the DVB World 2104. The Prof 7301 & 7500 demod is able to lock significantly lower CNR signals than previous generation tuners. Both the Prof 7301 and 7500 will blindscan on Linux. The noise spectrum from the Prof 7500 is significantly lower when loaded by a LNB than the DVB World 2104. I didn't know any of these before I studied them, but they are factual and may assist others in making purchase choices or getting the most out of what they have. Would I make you feel more comfortable if I were a fan boy and omitted anything that made any of my equipment choices look bad?

Pendragon

There are at least 2 ways to treat problems:
- deny it exists
- remedy

I suggest you to study Prof 7300 business case more carefully. If you feel, Prof 7301 power or other circuitry noise level affects reception and needs to be decreased, it makes sense to draw serious company attention to this matter, until 7301 model went down the drain following 7300 before even being introduced to the NA market. If you feel opposite, still study 7300 case before further arguing the issue. I'm done on this.

Now, it would be nice to do the same thing for new DVB World cards, and work with the manufacturer to remedy related issues, if any, or at least share the results on this forum for better or for worse.

Zamar - I'm even more bewildered. I took issue with the proposition that there was a power supply noise problem with the Prof tuners. Instead of fostering an unsupported rumor or flaming it as is common on the Internet, I went ahead and gathered hard evidence that essentially debunked it, and presented the data for critique. Along the way I found further data indicating a well-respected DVB World tuner actually generates more spurious noise. But the bottom line was that I was unable to find any evidence that EITHER tuner injects enough broadband noise or spurs to affect FTA reception in a material way. This is not denial, but the triumph of science over voodoo and magic.

Anyone who believes the data I presented shows otherwise or has convincing data to the contrary is welcome to submit it so it can be considered. The scientific process invites peer review, and merely because I present data that indicate hypothesis A is true does not make it so.

So I am not advocating denial or remedial action, because I believe no problem has been established, and actually quite the contrary.

1. Could Prof or DVB World modify their circuits to inject less noise? YES!

2. Would it improve reception? Highly unlikely, except possibly in combination with other FTA components suffering from truly serious design gaffes.

3. Would modifying the tuners allow a broader range of low cost components to perform better? Only in peculiar and pathological cases.

4. Is it economically viable to modify these tuners? NO! With virtually no foreseeable benefits, there is zero ROI.

If I was engineering a tuner circuit, I would certainly look to control the spurs and noise floor to the maximum extent possible. However once these had been reduced to the point of diminishing returns, there would be no incentive to increase the cost of the circuit to achieve meaninglessly low numbers. Sometimes these numbers can still be improved at no cost, and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with 'gold-plated' solutions, because they often disrupt critical design priorities to focus on lesser problems the engineer prefers to solve. Missing the forest for the trees is a common problem in electronic circuits. Did Prof and DVB World follow my above plan? Possibly, because I take no particular issue with the performance they have achieved.

On the other hand if I come across a major design flaw that did impact signal performance, I would first try to get the vendor to address it, and failing that publish the problem as a warning to consumers. In the tight margins of PC tuners, I rather doubt such a discovery would cause an abrupt withdrawal of product and subsequent re-engineering. However it might help improve the next generation.

sorry... wrong post

Mohaator

Are you OK? :)

dvbworld pcie2006hd ordered. ill wait till the prof cards have decent linux drivers then order one of them. the tbs6920 i have now is only giving me grief so ill wait until i get replacement to comment on it further. then i think i should send the dvbworld card to pendragon to test proper. i like your methods pendragon and i dont have an SA. maybe some nice person wants to sell me one for a decent amount. i cant justify the thousands they cost when i could test tons of hardware as a user rather than a lab tech for that expense.

crackt out,.

Mohaator

Your previous problems with sat cards may be caused by unprofessional reception system setup. I suggest you to look through this thread:

Splitters, diplexers, power inserters, tap couplers, attenuators, in-line amps (http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-fta-discussion/198946-splitters-diplexers-power-inserters-tap-couplers-attenuators-line-amps.html)

It is quite interesting by itself, but also contains links to some other threads on this forum explaining how to improve your reception and signal distribution system outcome. Pendragon is a big proponent of perfect systems, so look through his posts with a search feature, though it may not be easy. Or you can share with us your setup details, and the solution will come.

Of course, all this in exchange of TT S2-1600 review. Its on you. :)

I had the new STV0903 demodulator inside my previous Sharp tuner in my IPBOX 9000HD and it gave a dramatic improvement in SNR compared to the old tuner from Sharp with CX24116 inside.

Has anyone tested the Broadcom demodulator used in DM8000s and the new Vu+ Duo Linux boxes?

I want to clarify for the forum moderators and visitors.

We refused to zamar23 in the exclusive distribution of products PTG in the United States and Canada. The reasons are not important for this technical forum.

It is important that, evidently, zamar23 offended. And I now see that he wrote a lot of negative and misleading information about our products Prof, our STM chips, etc.

Thank you Pendragon for the fact that you calmly accept attacks zamar23. Thank you for what you're trying to explain technical things to people who do not understand how DVB-S/S2 cards work.

P.S.
I have already decided that I will not deal with nonsense. I will not enter into a discussion on meaningless issues. I will not try to destroy the myths and fantastic tales about our and competing products.

P.P.S.
Pendragon also thank you for the work on a review of Prof-7301 (http://www.prof-tuners.com/eng/review_prof_7301.html). I think that the review could be discussed at this forum.