Follow Us On TWITTER | NEW LOOK | PDA MODE
Those listed below are our PROUD SatelliteGuys GOLD Sponsors!
Applied Instruments DishStore.NET

» Advertising
Register Today and many of these ads go away!


Welcome to SatelliteGuys.US - America's Most Popular Satellite Information Forum!!

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access. By joining our free community you will have access to post & reply messages in our forum, play in our fun arcade and communicate privately with other members as well as enjoy many other members only features.

Also as a registered member you will also see much less advertising!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

CLICK HERE TO REGISTER!

Go Back   SatelliteGuys.US > Other Satellite / Cable TV Offerings > Digital Over the Air (OTA)
Sponsored Links

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2009, 10:04 AM
SatelliteGuys Freshman
 
Join Date: Oct 12th, 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 44
Sponsored Links
Just my two cents,

First off, the proper way to receive UHF is by putting your antenna outdoors.

Who ever and for what ever reason - decided to put their antenna in their attic is just kidding themselves when they think that they can do it and not pay a price.

The price of using a indoors antenna is that even with a stick built home with 2x4 studding and 1/2 inch drywall and 5/8th plywood on the outside and plastic siding, you are going to loose no less then 6 db of signal.

The proper way to receive a signal is to put the antenna as high up in the air as possible, as far away as possible from a noise source - electric wires, electric switches, electric motor brush noise, ignition noise etc.

Did any of you ever hear of height gain? The normal difference in gain between a fringe signal at 25 ft vs 35 feet is about 6 Db. So by mounting your antenna high up above the roof and outside, you just got 6 Db of gain.

Amplifiers - no matter what you call them, amplifiers, pre amplifiers etc is just that, a amplifier. It cannot in a digital world replace lost data. All it can do is take a good signal and boost it to over come loss, such as long runs of wire and splitter loss. I have had heated discussions as to the loss of barrel connectors and F terminals. The reason for loss in a barrel connector is due to the fact that you are removing the shield from around the wire when you splice it onto a F connector. The loss of the shield is what causes the loss - as much as the loss in the terminal due to the fact that it is not a direction connection.

To understand how the RG 6 works, you first have to understand something called a Faraday Cage. Faraday cage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

Basically what it explains is that with a good wire, you will have less loss and less noise left into the wire then with a poor conductor. So it is very important to use as good of wire as possible. The Walmart junk they sell in stores just doesn't cut it.

If a person does not have any problems with reception, they are not on the internet asking for advice. PERIOD!

Wood and plastic by themselves do not block reception. But the moisture in the wood will block reception. A piece of aluminum flashing 6 inches wide can block a signal. Asphalt shingles on the roof will not block your signal, but the moisture under or on top of the shingles will. Some building materials such as stone or concrete makes a building opaque to reception, as does aluminum foil on the building insulation both on the walls or on top of the ceiling below the attic where you are trying to get reception.

It is best to take the best signal you can get, amplifiy it with a amplifier that can make enough gain to overcome the long runs of wire and the splitter loss and still produce the best signal with the lowest amount of loss from noise.

Once you hit the signal noise floor, the signal is lost forever and that is it. No amount of amplification will over come it.

The problem with places like Washington and Oregon is that when you have a transmitter on one side of the mountain and a house on the other side or deep down into a valley where the signal passes over their heads and does not hit the ground,, the UHF signal refuses to travel through the mountain or down into the valley, and you are left with a high signal but with no place for it to go.

UHF is line of sight, you can compare UHF to a flashlight analogy.

If you shine a light up into the sky, the light does not come back down and shine on the ground unless it has something that can reflect it back to you.

If you shine a light to the north, you will not have any light to the south and vice verse. If you shine a light at the side of a hill, it will not travel through the hill and it will not travel up over one side and down over the next. If you shine it up over a mountain, it will not shine down into the valley below.

VHF is like sound. If you shout, a person inside of a building can hear you. Sound will travel up over one hill and down over the next. Sound will go around corners while light will not.

People have all kinds of experience with VHF - because television stations have used VHF for over 60 years. It's when you try to take VHF technology and apply it to UHF that you get yourself into trouble.

Here is a very good point. There is a station in Altoona PA - WTAJ (1000 Kw), on the other side of the mountain 10 miles away is a transmitter for WJAC (5000 Kw). The people in Johnstown cannot watch WTAJ on UHF due to the fact that the mountain is taller then the transmitter antenna. At the same time the people in Altoona cannot watch WJAC from their main transmitter on UHF - even though there is only 10 miles of separation between the two.

The stations are forced to put up translators to cover the lost area or loose that portion of the audience. The cable companies and Sat TV providers all loves this situation - due to the fact that when reception is lost, they are all more then happy to come out and for $50 a month restore your service. But the television broadcasters are reluctant to put up translators to serve a couple more viewers in a down economy.

The second example is WWCP - Fox TV 8 out of Johnstown and WATM out of Altoona. Neither station could afford translators - both station is owned by the same person, even though one station lists Palm Communications as it's owner and the other I think is Primemedia. To conserve money, they petitioned the FCC and got approval to use each others transmitters to broadcast their signal into the adjacent market. WWCP uses its high def channel to broadcast their signal and uses it's sub channel to broadcast WATM's signal. WATM uses it's channel - 23 ( Actual channel 24) to broadcast in High Def and uses it's sub channel to broadcast WWCP's signal into the Altoona market. Without this permission, both stations ran the risk of the lights being turned off and transmitters being shut off.

The next step is the connector it's self.

Anything that is easy to push on is also easy to fall off. If I had a $1 for every connector that I threw away in the last year, I wouldn't need to look for a job next week. I gave away my compression terminal tool and I would not have another one for the simple reason that when you push on the terminal - it is as tight as it will ever get. After a couple of heat cycles, the insulation on the outer jacket of the coax shrinks and the terminal falls off.

The same is true with a crimp on connector. Unless you follow good crimping practices and use some sort of weather proof, you are going to have nothing but problems. Electrical tape and anti seize is the best medicine for a crimp on terminal.

The other thing is using the right antenna for the job. You would not use a 1/2 ton pick up truck to haul 20 tons of coal. You would get a 20 ton truck and haul it all in one load. The same is true when it comes to a antenna. There is a certain size of antenna that must be used to receive a signal properly. Unless you use a antenna that is large enough to receive that signal, plus a extra little something for when the weather try's to block your signal, or when tropo floods in your signal in the summer and then falls off in the winter and you are left with no signal at all.

You do not use a small antenna and then amplify it to get the best reception, you use the proper sized antenna and even a antenna rotor - when you have signals from more then one direction to properly aim the antenna for best results.

Even in my situation, channel 6 - WJAC which is a 5000 KW station has sparkles in the picture when I have the antenna pointed a little off center of the signal, and I am only 40 miles from the transmitter. With a Winegard 8200U antenna and a Channel Master CM 7777 pre amp!

Just like with the flashlight, if you point it north, you will not have light to the south. Yes you can receive some signals off the side and back of a antenna, but that is not the proper way to receive a signal.

When ever a signal - market is all UHF, I usually recommend a XG 91 or a Channel Master 4228 HD antenna.

When you have a mixed bag of signals, I usually recommend a 769_P Winegard or a Channel Master or a HBU 22 Antennacraft antenna.

You can throw good money away after bad on trying to get reception in a fringe area or you can use the best - cheapest antenna and do it all at once.

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Last edited by JB Antennaman; 11-21-2009 at 10:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2009, 10:29 PM
Jim5506's Avatar
Pub Member / Supporter
 
 Pub Member / Supporter
Join Date: Oct 19th, 2004
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 3,705
That was more like two bits.
__________________
Hitachi 57F59; Sony VHP-D50Q - 7' diag on wall
DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic Showstopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder
Hauppauge HD PVR; Sony PS3; Toshiba HD-A3 HDDVD
Dish 1000 on 110,119&129; Dish 500 on 61.5
RS U75-R; Funke PSP.1922
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 10:31 AM
SatelliteGuys Freshman
 
Join Date: Oct 12th, 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 44
Just trying to answer a complicated question with a simple answer.

I am sure that there are people out there that could make plutonium out of common household items and a microwave set to 1800 degrees for 6 hours.

But I am not that well versed in that subject.

However I do understand reception and can explain it with real world terms and examples that anyone can understand.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 12:08 PM
Splicer's Avatar
SatelliteGuys Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 18th, 2007
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Antennaman View Post
Just trying to answer a complicated question with a simple answer.
And you are wrong, AGAIN, on both points. The question was not "complicated" and your "answer" is not "simple".

Quote:
I am sure that there are people out there that could make plutonium out of common household items and a microwave set to 1800 degrees for 6 hours.
As per your norm, completely irrelevant.

Quote:
But I am not that well versed in that subject.
Nor the subject being discussed here in this thread.

Quote:
However I do understand reception and can explain it with real world terms and examples that anyone can understand.
There is just so many incorrect "examples" and "explainations" in your previous 'book', that I just don't have the time to go thru and correct you, AGAIN.

Really, JB, you need to stop your unfounded 'know more than anyone else' attitude and stop the nonsensical posting. And don't call me out to point out your 'mistakes', because you know I can and will. And if I have to do it again, I will bill you for my time doing so.
__________________
Toshiba 56HM66 HD DLP RPTV | Denon AVR-789 | Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD | LG LST3510a ATSC/QAM rcvr w/upconvert DVD | APC H15 Power Conditioner | Harmony 550 | AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF Yagi | 2 Antennacraft U-4000 UHF 4 Bay Bowtie Antennas | NexxTech +15 dB Amp | 44 OTA Channels
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 06:10 PM
SatelliteGuys Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 12th, 2003
Location: Celina, TX.
Posts: 6,013
JB antennaman please only post 3-4 sentences. I had to force myself to read your garbage and found very little was true. It is at a point, where you post a reply I will generally skip reading because of your wordyness and lack of accuracy. That is a problem for those looking for help. Please consider them and shorten your diatribes.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 06:16 PM
Iceberg's Avatar
The No Pain Train
 
 Proud Staff Member
Join Date: Nov 17th, 2003
Location: Places men fear to tread
Posts: 50,508
and why does JB need to point out about the stations in his area? That takes up 1/2 of the OT part and nobody cares about his podunk stations

Quote:
Even in my situation, channel 6 - WJAC which is a 5000 KW station has sparkles in the picture when I have the antenna pointed a little off center of the signal
thats funny. Last I checked there were no sparklies in digital. Analog yes (and seeing both OTA & free to air I've seen plenty of both) but if the antenna is "off centre" that gives you a lower signal.....sure as hell no sparklies

so once again.....WRONG!!
__________________
Winegard 76cm dish, SG2100 motor, Sadoun dual KU LNB/DirecTv dual..... Fortec 6 foot dish with GeoSatPro dual C-Band LNB aimed at 99W... Primestar 84e aimed at 91W.... WSIDigital 4 foot dish with Sadoun dual LNB aimed at 105W with 2nd LNB for 101W.... GeoSatPro 36" dish, SG2100 motor, Sadoun dual LNB
Coolsat 5000 on motorized....AZBox HD Elite on 99,motorized,105....Viacast DSR1500 on 99....GeoSatPro DSR200c on 2nd motorized.... Directv D15 DVR on 101W.... Pansat 1500 to aim dishes.... few receivers not set up yet
Other 6 foot Fortec dish with GeoSatPro dual C-Band LNB "ghetto moved" to various C-Band satellites
Third 6 foot Sadoun dish with GeoSatPro Prime Focus KU LNB on it for maximum rain fade combatting
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 08:27 PM
meinename's Avatar
SatelliteGuys Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 9th, 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 557
Remember guys, there is an ignore list as well...
After reading JB's posts enough, JB got on mine about as fast as another former member well known to the FTA section.
__________________
Geosatpro DVR-1100c / Geosatpro 90cm w/GSL1u on a SG2100 - LOS 125°W to 72°W / Direcway @ 103°W with proper skew
KTI 10.5 foot | BSC621 | LOS 139°W to 107.3°W

Remote setup: Coolsat 5000 / Geosatpro 1.2m with a Tracker II+ @ 83W and a GSL1u @ 89W
/ To Be Installed: Starband 75e @ 89°W
8.5 foot solid Alu | Chaparral C-band Orthomode | 18" Von Weise, controlled by a Gbox V3000 | Motorola DSR922 | LOS 125W to 95W
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 08:39 PM
Iceberg's Avatar
The No Pain Train
 
 Proud Staff Member
Join Date: Nov 17th, 2003
Location: Places men fear to tread
Posts: 50,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by meinename View Post
Remember guys, there is an ignore list as well...
as staff I dont have that option
__________________
Winegard 76cm dish, SG2100 motor, Sadoun dual KU LNB/DirecTv dual..... Fortec 6 foot dish with GeoSatPro dual C-Band LNB aimed at 99W... Primestar 84e aimed at 91W.... WSIDigital 4 foot dish with Sadoun dual LNB aimed at 105W with 2nd LNB for 101W.... GeoSatPro 36" dish, SG2100 motor, Sadoun dual LNB
Coolsat 5000 on motorized....AZBox HD Elite on 99,motorized,105....Viacast DSR1500 on 99....GeoSatPro DSR200c on 2nd motorized.... Directv D15 DVR on 101W.... Pansat 1500 to aim dishes.... few receivers not set up yet
Other 6 foot Fortec dish with GeoSatPro dual C-Band LNB "ghetto moved" to various C-Band satellites
Third 6 foot Sadoun dish with GeoSatPro Prime Focus KU LNB on it for maximum rain fade combatting
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 09:36 PM
Splicer's Avatar
SatelliteGuys Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 18th, 2007
Posts: 230
And I always like a good laugh and to make fun of him and his 'knowledge'.

Besides, if he is left to continue posting unchecked, there's no telling the damage he could cause with all that 'knowledge' to lurkers and members alike that don't realize he is spouting nothing but false crap. That in turn gives this site a bad rep.
__________________
Toshiba 56HM66 HD DLP RPTV | Denon AVR-789 | Toshiba HD-A35 HD DVD | LG LST3510a ATSC/QAM rcvr w/upconvert DVD | APC H15 Power Conditioner | Harmony 550 | AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 Highband-Broadband VHF Yagi | 2 Antennacraft U-4000 UHF 4 Bay Bowtie Antennas | NexxTech +15 dB Amp | 44 OTA Channels

Last edited by Splicer; 11-22-2009 at 09:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2009, 11:46 PM
meinename's Avatar
SatelliteGuys Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 9th, 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg View Post
as staff I dont have that option
I understand that. Poor, poor, Iceburg having to wade through all sorts of nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer View Post
And I always like a good laugh and to make fun of him and his 'knowledge'.

Besides, if he is left to continue posting unchecked, there's no telling the damage he could cause with all that 'knowledge' to lurkers and members alike that don't realize he is spouting nothing but false crap. That in turn gives this site a bad rep.
Glad you're having fun with it.
I wish I could get paid just to respond to all of the nonsense I see...
I'd have 15 hour workday's again!

Sometimes annoys me that I can't call someone out on some nonsense as I've 0 experience in what some of the other people are talking about.
Other times (on other boards) I completely avoid threads that are filled with such utter nonsense (4th hand experiences, overly-distilled facts misconstrued to falsehood) that it would take a JB-size post customized to each and every thread.
So I try to keep my efforts focused here, and keep the facts straight.
The one thing that gets me motivated is someone willing to learn to help themselves.

I guess I would've missed a real gem talking about sparklies on a digital signal if Iceburg hadn't quoted it.
Note: added this story after the story below
The local religious low-power repeater (not the TBN one) recently switched to digital.
When I checked their digital signal I was horrified to what I saw.
A black and white static mess of Daystar, with occasional color. My guess was they where using a analog satellite receiver to pick up the Satellite feed with the dish in sore need of a realignment.
Now mind you, my TV/Converter is getting a perfect Copy of what they are transmitting. With digital TV, Nothing I can do with my TV and OTA antenna can fix what they are broadcasting.
==================
Reminds me of when "This TV" was added at the local station, right about the time the THIS satellite feed was having real issues. In my local AVS OTA thread, people were calling the local station "unprofessional" and a "joke" when the fault wasn't even on the local's end. I could only tell them what I saw on the satellite feed from another station. The satellite feed and the local station were dropping out at the exact same time in the program with the same bad picture.
==================

So handymantoo, what did you choose to do about the Boston stations?
__________________
Geosatpro DVR-1100c / Geosatpro 90cm w/GSL1u on a SG2100 - LOS 125°W to 72°W / Direcway @ 103°W with proper skew
KTI 10.5 foot | BSC621 | LOS 139°W to 107.3°W

Remote setup: Coolsat 5000 / Geosatpro 1.2m with a Tracker II+ @ 83W and a GSL1u @ 89W
/ To Be Installed: Starband 75e @ 89°W
8.5 foot solid Alu | Chaparral C-band Orthomode | 18" Von Weise, controlled by a Gbox V3000 | Motorola DSR922 | LOS 125W to 95W
Reply With Quote
Reply

  SatelliteGuys.US > Other Satellite / Cable TV Offerings > Digital Over the Air (OTA)

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links

Search Google


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:38 PM.


Get SatelliteGuys News Flashes on

SatelliteGuys.US is Proud to be relaxed home of the DirecTV Cutting Edge (CE) Program.
SatelliteGuys.US is also a PROUD SPONSOR of the Newington Little League - Newington, Connecticut
SatelliteGuys.US is not affiliated with any cable or satellite television company
The opinions expressed here at SatelliteGuys.US are those of our members and may not reflect the opinions of our staff, our sponsors, or any Satellite/Cable Company.

All trademarks are property of their respective owners.
The SatelliteGuys Logo and the "G Satellite" Icon are Trademarks of SatelliteGuys Incorporated

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.0 RC2
Copyright 2003 - 2010 SatelliteGuys Incorporated - All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.19919 seconds with 13 queries