So sick of these illogical (and seemingly arbitrary) hockey blackouts...

[shinner]

But aren't they throwing money away considering that Dtv would still have to blackout areas local to Comcast? Just seems to me that they're missing out on a lot of money that Philly natives around the country would happily spend if they could keep up with the teams they grew up watching.



What's the downside to letting Dtv carry the network and provide it to those outside the Philly blackout area? They'd still maintain the monopoly they currently have in the Philly area and pick up a ton of subs outside of that.

[shinner]

This is kinda maddening but makes me laugh a bit. Tonight, Flyers vs Penguinos on NHLN & Fox Sports Pitt (as well as CSN Philly which we know DTV doesn't carry). I'm getting the game on FSP with NHLN blacked out....presumably because FSP is one of my "local" RSNs.

Why is it maddening but make me laugh? FSP is hardly "local" to me since I'm a good 3.5hr drive from Pitt. The last time Philly was on NHLN was the Ottawa game on the 3rd. DTV carried it on NHLN and a RSN but I was blacked out presumably because my local cable company showed it on CNS Philly. I'm sure CSN Philly is also showing tonight's game vs the Pens, yet I can watch it on FSP.

Now what really is the difference between being able to watch tonight's game on what is essentially not a local network (FSP) but is designated as one and...not being able to watch the Senators game on a different RSN that isn't local but isn't designated as local either? Comcast Philly carried both games but were able to black me out on the Sens game but not on the Pens game. Doesn't really make sense. It's not like I'm seeing local commercials tonight on the Pens' network...no real difference had I been able to watch the Sens game on whatever RSN they used that night (think it was from out west, maybe Cali).

If I really was claimed by Philly, shouldn't I be blacked out for both games? And if I'm not claimed by Philly, then shouldn't I have been able to watch both? How can I belong to Philly on a "sometimes" basis? "That's just the way it is" really isn't an acceptable explanation.

All I really want is uniformity so I can depend on being able to watch what I'm paying for...and that's really what it comes down to. This isn't free. I'm paying for a product and not receiving it completely.

[jb14075]

This is kinda maddening but makes me laugh a bit. Tonight, Flyers vs Penguinos on NHLN & Fox Sports Pitt (as well as CSN Philly which we know DTV doesn't carry). I'm getting the game on FSP with NHLN blacked out....presumably because FSP is one of my "local" RSNs.

Why is it maddening but make me laugh? FSP is hardly "local" to me since I'm a good 3.5hr drive from Pitt. The last time Philly was on NHLN was the Ottawa game on the 3rd. DTV carried it on NHLN and a RSN but I was blacked out presumably because my local cable company showed it on CNS Philly. I'm sure CSN Philly is also showing tonight's game vs the Pens, yet I can watch it on FSP.

Now what really is the difference between being able to watch tonight's game on what is essentially not a local network (FSP) but is designated as one and...not being able to watch the Senators game on a different RSN that isn't local but isn't designated as local either? Comcast Philly carried both games but were able to black me out on the Sens game but not on the Pens game. Doesn't really make sense. It's not like I'm seeing local commercials tonight on the Pens' network...no real difference had I been able to watch the Sens game on whatever RSN they used that night (think it was from out west, maybe Cali).

If I really was claimed by Philly, shouldn't I be blacked out for both games? And if I'm not claimed by Philly, then shouldn't I have been able to watch both? How can I belong to Philly on a "sometimes" basis? "That's just the way it is" really isn't an acceptable explanation.

All I really want is uniformity so I can depend on being able to watch what I'm paying for...and that's really what it comes down to. This isn't free. I'm paying for a product and not receiving it completely.

That seems crazy but I know it is true, its almost as if Central & South Cenral PA are a no mans land (as far a D* is concerned). My parents live in Central PA, about the same distance from Philly & Baltimore yet their home teams are the Mets & Yankees? How can you be "local" to NYC for baseball when 4 other markets are a shorter distance away? Whats really strange is that they do not get MSG as a local, only SNY & YES. In fact they get no NHL or NBA local coverage at all with any package below Premier. Local for Mets & Yankess, not local for Nets, Knicks, Devils, Rangers or Islanders? With Premier they also get FSN - Pittsburgh (Pirates & Pens). The next town to the west of my parents (about 15 miles away) gets all Baltimore/DC teams as their locals (and FSN Pitt w/ Premier).

[Iceberg]

But aren't they throwing money away considering that Dtv would still have to blackout areas local to Comcast? Just seems to me that they're missing out on a lot of money that Philly natives around the country would happily spend if they could keep up with the teams they grew up watching.

but they can't.....if you are outside of the Philly area that the teams claim the games are blacked out so its a moot point. You need NHL CI for those

What's the downside to letting Dtv carry the network and provide it to those outside the Philly blackout area? They'd still maintain the monopoly they currently have in the Philly area and pick up a ton of subs outside of that.

see above....All pro teams outside of the local "claimed" area are blacked out so why carry a channel that (in your scenario) 100% of the market is blacked out of games?

Also, because CSN Philly uses the old infrastructure of PRISM & Sportschannel Philly which is fibre and microwave its not on satellite right now....no not Dish or Directv satellite but C-Band satellite (for the other carriers to grab the feed). That is the loophole right now.....from wiki

Unlike most other cable networks, CSN Philadelphia is only distributed via microwave and fiber optics. The infrastructure Comcast uses for this was left over from the now defunct PRISM Network. Since CSN Philadelphia does not uplink its signal to any satellite, Comcast is able to avoid an FCC regulation that requires most television channels to be offered to direct broadcast satellite (DBS) companies. Lawyers for DirecTV and Dish Network have attempted to show that Comcast Corporation, who owns both CSN Philadelphia along with most of the cable systems in the Philadelphia market, is acting in restraint of trade because it does not uplink CSN Philadelphia to satellite. However, so far neither the FCC nor the federal courts have forced Comcast to make CSN Philadelphia available to the DBS services. Thus, DBS customers in the Philadelphia region do not get access to the network or any of the local teams' games. However, cable companies other than Comcast within the designated CSN Philadelphia market do have access to the channel. In December 2006, Comcast even made a deal to place CSN Philadelphia on Verizon's competing FiOS systems.

[shinner]

Also, because CSN Philly uses the old infrastructure of PRISM & Sportschannel Philly which is fibre and microwave its not on satellite right now....no not Dish or Directv satellite but C-Band satellite (for the other carriers to grab the feed). That is the loophole right now.....from wiki

How do they put their feed on Center Ice for some games and quite a few Sixers games from what I understand?

[Greg Bimson]

But [isn't Comcast] throwing money away considering that Dtv would still have to blackout areas local to Comcast? Just seems to me that they're missing out on a lot of money that Philly natives around the country would happily spend if they could keep up with the teams they grew up watching.

I've read a good chunk of this thread, so I'll try to make this simple:

The leagues have given each team a home territory. You must be within the Flyers, Pens and Caps home territories. You cannot get MSG and expect to see the Islanders and Sabres, as you are out of their territories.

If there are Philadelphia sports fans around the country, and they aren't in the respective leagues' Philadelphia home territory, fans of the Phillies, Sixers and Flyers can watch most of those teams' games on Extra Innings, League Pass or Center Ice respectively. Comcast Sports Net games can be made available in the out-of-market packages.

If Comcast allows DirecTV access to the channel CSN Philly, then Comcast would be forced to allow both DirecTV and Dish Network carriage of the channel back into the Philadelphia market. It is no coincidence that the lowest penetration rate for the satellite companies is Philadelphia, because Comcast can withhold CSN Philly from the satellite companies.

I can guarantee you that if DirecTV and Dish Network were allowed to have CSN Philly, the following 12 months would easily show major subscriber gains for the satellite companies.

Truthfully, I EXPECT that if the Comcast/NBC Universal deal goes through, one major concession is that all Comcast-owned programming is subject to open access; the same condition was given to Fox when they acquired a controlling stake in DirecTV. That would force Comcast to open up CSN Philly to the satellite companies.

How do they put their feed on Center Ice for some games and quite a few Sixers games from what I understand?

The respective leagues force Comcast to open up the broadcast for the out-of-market packages. "This telecast is copyrighted by the NHL, Comcast Sports Network and the Philadelphia Flyers".

[shinner]

If there are Philadelphia sports fans around the country, and they aren't in the respective leagues' Philadelphia home territory, fans of the Phillies, Sixers and Flyers can watch most of those teams' games on Extra Innings, League Pass or Center Ice respectively. Comcast Sports Net games can be made available in the out-of-market packages.

I understand this...I was not asking why I can't see Philly games without having to sub to CI, EI or LP. I sub to CI & EI...and even though I'm not claimed by Philly according to DTV, I'm still blacked out of Flyers games when they play on NHL Network....UNLESS they're playing Pitt or Wash (who I am claimed by). That was my original frustration. And now that I think about it, even though I sub to EI, I'm often blacked out of Phillies games. My wife & I aren't Phillies fans (we each like diff teams) but we've had some frustrations when our teams are playing the Phillies and we end up being blacked out despite subbing to EI. It's not logical and it's not consistent.

Additionally (though it's very much secondary), I'm interested in seeing CSN Philly, not just for the actual games but also the team's daily shows as well as their sportscenter type shows. Subbing to CI, EI or LP gets me none of this. This is a separate issue though and not part of my original post. In fact, the matter of DirecTV not being able to carry CSN Philly really doesn't have anything to do with it.

I understand why I can't see games carried by Versus. I don't understand why I can't see games carried by 2 of the 3 networks carrying a Flyers game (the national carrier & the local carrier for the opponent) when I'm not claimed by Philadelphia. If the game was only carried by the Sens carrier & the Flyers carrier, I'd be able to see it no problem on the Sens channel. That's the crux of my original post...nothing to do with why CSN Philly is/isn't on Dtv.

If Comcast allows DirecTV access to the channel CSN Philly, then Comcast would be forced to allow both DirecTV and Dish Network carriage of the channel back into the Philadelphia market.

This I didn't understand...I thought that if the sat companies did carry CSN Philly, they could still deny this channel to Philly locals. Now that I think about it though, I'm sure Boston locals can watch NESN via satellite, so this does make sense.

The respective leagues force Comcast to open up the broadcast for the out-of-market packages. "This telecast is copyrighted by the NHL, Comcast Sports Network and the Philadelphia Flyers".

This however doesn't back up the hardware claim that Comcast Philly doesn't have the capability to put their network on Dtv or Dish. They clearly do, so falling back on the "CSN Philly uses the old infrastructure of PRISM & Sportschannel Philly which is fibre and microwave" excuse is pretty hollow. They're clearly capable of providing it to Dtv & Dish.

And if the leagues CAN force Comcast to open up their broadcast, why am I still blacked out of some Philly games depending upon what network available on DirecTV is broadcasting the game? I've given enough examples. Is it really DirecTV sticking it to me?

Use the Ottawa game for instance. On NHLN, CSN Philly & some west coast FOX RSN I believe.

- NHL blacked out
- CNS Philly not available
- FOX blacked out.

Did DirecTV choose to put the game on the FOX affiliate (which obviously has no affiliation to the Senators) instead of using a Comcast Philly feed? I can't really say what Senators feed they used obviously...it could have been a Canadian feed and they just used the FOX channel for the game. According to your statement, the league can force Comcast to open up the broadcast. Did they not do this or did DirecTV choose not to use a Comcast feed (don't know why they wouldn't since they haven't had any problems using it as recently as the Tampa Bay game on Saturday)?

All I'd like is an answer that makes sense...I've tried to get that from DirecTV and only got a runaround. Different DirecTV reps blamed it on Versus (when they weren't even carrying the game), the NHL and even the Flyers themselves. It's obvious that they had no clue regarding the problem. Emailing the NHL offices was met with silence.

It really makes me think it's just another case of the consumer taking it up the rear chute but none of the companies involved will admit to it.

[Greg Bimson]

Considering this is the most successful and profitable sport in the US, I'm surprised that you're getting worse coverage with the sport thats most likely to commercially fail in the next 5 years. You'd think they'd be working harder to get the game in front of the fans as much as they could.

That's the million dollar question: how would the NHL get the game in front of the fans as much as they could? That's why the NHL hired Bettman; the problem isn't as much Bettman as it is that hockey is more of a regional sport with super-fanatic fans. It isn't a casual interest sport.

Spoken as a hard core NHL fan in the 60's and 70's who mostly gave up due to over expansion and diluted expertise in the 80's and completely gave up in the 90's.

I realize I am in the minority here and was born a couple years after the first expansion, but romanticizing the Original Six and the first wave of expansion forgets some of the more boneheaded business moves that were done throughout the post-war era. Those boneheaded moves continued on through today: lookup Nashville Predators, about one person so pigheaded not to allow a second person to buy and move the franchise, that person number three was given the right to buy it and it turns out he was a fraud. And not the first fraud in the NHL.

The main boneheaded move IMO was the lack of expansion during the Original Six era. Check out Al Sutphin of the AHL's Cleveland Barons, and how the NHL jerked him around to the point he said forget it. Or even prior to that, when in the 1940's someone tried to resurrect the Montreal Maroons franchise in Philadelphia. Anytime there was interest, it was met with resistance, until the want of a national television contract was expected. And the only way to get that contract was...

The second boneheaded move was the 1967 expansion process. The main reason St. Louis received an NHL team is because the owners of the Blackhawks owned the St. Louis Arena, and they'd receive money either by rent or by sale of the arena. They added teams in LA and SF, yet there were a couple of teams from the Western Hockey League there already. They wouldn't award Buffalo or Vancouver teams (until three years after, upon threat of the WHA).

Other boneheaded moves include creating rules to limit the best players (see Rocket Richard and the red-line and the Gretzky rule removing 4-on-4 hockey during a minor penalty). These guys just can't seem to get out of their own way.

The league has always been reactive against those infringing upon their stewardship of the game. Unfortunately. It takes a leader with a vision...

[Greg Bimson]

I don't understand why I can't see games carried by 2 of the 3 networks carrying a Flyers game (the national carrier & the local carrier for the opponent) when I'm not claimed by Philadelphia.

You've mentioned that the local cableco has CSN. If the local cabler is showing Flyers games on CSN Philly, you most definitely are in the Flyers viewing area.

Use the Ottawa game for instance. On NHLN, CSN Philly & some west coast FOX RSN I believe.

- NHL blacked out
- CNS Philly not available
- FOX blacked out.

Let's try it this way...

The NHL has a national broadcast contract with both Versus and NBC. During those windows, there isn't any RSN coverage of the involved teams. So, you get to watch the Flyers on NBC and Versus (where either are available) and only on those channels. [On DirecTV, you'd only get the Flyers on NBC, as Versus is unavailable]

Next, the Flyers have a local broadcast contract with CSN Philly. So when a Flyers game is on CSN Philly, you can watch it provided your cabler/satco has the station. [On DirecTV, you do not have access to CSN Philly, so you do not get Flyers games]

The NHL Network and NHL Center Ice are out of market packages and will not get you more Flyers games.

On DirecTV, if you buy the Sports Pack, you will receive all games of any team that claims your area, so in the Harrisburg area your primary team is the Flyers, but you also get Penguins and Captials games. You will even get those teams when they play the Flyers.

So the only way on DirecTV to get the Flyers is to watch the Saturday NBC games, the Pens vs. Flyers on Fox Sports Pittsburgh or the Caps vs. Flyers on CSN Washington. And if that is exactly what is appearing to you, then my scenario is most likely correct.

This however doesn't back up the hardware claim that Comcast Philly doesn't have the capability to put their network on Dtv or Dish. They clearly do, so falling back on the "CSN Philly uses the old infrastructure of PRISM & Sportschannel Philly which is fibre and microwave" excuse is pretty hollow. They're clearly capable of providing it to Dtv & Dish.

And if the leagues CAN force Comcast to open up their broadcast, why am I still blacked out of some Philly games depending upon what network available on DirecTV is broadcasting the game?

First paragraph is solely a business decision by Comcast. In the Philadelphia area, Comcast doesn't want to lose subscribers to satellite, and one way to do that is withhold all local pro sports games from satellite.

Second paragraph is somewhat incorrect. The leagues cannot force Comcast to open up their broadcast within the local market that the league has given to that team. The league has the ability to repurpose the local broadcast for use in the out-of-market package, but since it appears you are in-market, that doesn't help you.

[Greg Bimson]

I may have "read a good chunk of this thread", but I think I missed this:

Comcast Philly shows virtually every Flyers game and when not on NHLN, I get the games on the opponents RSN, no problem. If I'm truly in the Flyers' "local market", shouldn't I also be blacked out when the Flyers aren't on NHLN? That's what I'm not understanding. It doesn't seem logical at all. How did it change from last year to this?

So you are a CI subscriber, and you are getting ALL Flyers games from the opposing teams' feed, except when they are on NHL Network.

Now I'm baffled.

I think a call to NHL Network is in order. They are blacking you out thinking you are in the Flyers market.