First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter

[Hall]

Like Charlie said on the Charlie chat the other night a $39 box is coming. This box however is not it. What's that mean?

Perfect example of not believing Dish or Charlie until things are final....

In this post, http://www.satelliteguys.us/889487-post1.html, from Team Summit, you said "He then talks about the Echostar TR40 which will be an Off Air Digitial Tuner which will convert digital off air signals and will convert those signals so a regular SDTV can view them. These receivers are eligible for the goverments $40 coupon program, in fact the TR in the TR40 stands for Transition and the 40 in TR 40 means $40 coupon compliant."

In a later post, http://www.satelliteguys.us/1329398-post24.html, from a retailer chat, you report "The TR40 is being renamed the DTV PAL and will be available in June."

In this day and age, you'd think they'd at least try and stick to their previous comments. It's not like this information can't be found later....

[jcrandall]

Is this getting a little carried away ? Unless he sells the same stuff that the sponsors here sell, it should be okay....

And instead of killing links to sites, consider this: Maybe enough people follow the link and buy from them and they in turn become sponsors !

Hall -just to point out - as I overlooked it myself -

he removed it, he didn't need to.

There is no reason he can't link to a blog that reviewed the product.

[jcrandall]

I have a real job that I work at 40 hours a week.

Slacker....only 40....

[Scott Greczkowski]

In this day and age, you'd think they'd at least try and stick to their previous comments. It's not like this information can't be found later....

All that I can tell you is this (as it's all I know)... something has changed... I am expecting a $39 box from Dish in the future (my gut feeling based on what Charlie said on the Charlie Chat) however I am expecting the DTVPal to be released and cost $59.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Slacker....only 40....

Hey thats not counting all the work my wife makes me do when I get home.

[jcrandall]

How much is the retail on the Zenith? If the tuner is better than the guide / menu structure takes a little less role for many users.

[pabeader]

Scott, we appriciate any time you spend away from family and friends. just to feed our need for information!!

[Scott Greczkowski]

How much is the retail on the Zenith? If the tuner is better than the guide / menu structure takes a little less role for many users.

It was $59 and I used one of my coupons to knock $40 off that price.

[pabeader]

i wonder why the Z picked up a channel that the Pal didn't? The Pal seems more sensitive based on other channels so it's got me puzzled. Scott, could you try to manually add that channel?

[riffjim4069]

Background:

"To be or not to be, that is the question" In this case, the word "be" implies convert digital TVGOS to analog (VBI) TVGOS. This question is especially meaningful for the tens of thousands of us who use a Sony HD DVR to view and record both over-the-air and cable programming, and the millions of analog TVGOS devices still on the market. For those who are unfamiliar with the Sony HD DVR, it uses something called TV Guide On Screen (aka TVGOS), which is a free, built-into-the-unit, programming guilde. However, unlike D*, E*, or TiVo, there are no monthly fees required to receive guide data. We cheap bastards love 'em! TVGOS devices receive guide data from one of two sources:

1. local over-the-air analog broadcasters (typically PBS in most areas).

"The TV Guide On Screen data "piggybacks" on analog broadcast signals that your TV normally receives from selected TV stations across the United States and Canada (and other countries?). Gemstar provides each of its host stations with data to broadcast via telephone or satellite download and the host stations insert the data into the vertical blanking interval (VBI) of their broadcast signals on VBI line 14. TVs and recorders equipped with TV Guide On Screen are able to receive and decode the electronic program guide (EPG) data from the VBI." (
TV Guide On Screen Technical FAQ

)

2. cable operators who provide and unmodified analog version (pass-thru) from the local broadcaster in #1 (above) or provide embedded TVGOS data on some other analog channel through an agreement with the GemStar. Most people use option #1 due to a variety of problems with option #2, along with the fact most major cable providers are quickly converting to all digital.

Digital TVGOS:

In response to the DTV Transition, GemStar created a digital TVGOS, which has been incorporated into TVGOS licenses products for the past 2-3 years. While the nuts and bolts of digital TVGOS are only colorfully different (technically, there are a number of enhancements, but the product and delivery are essentially the same), the two major differences are it uses ATSC (digital) vice NTSC (analog), and digital TVGOS is generally being delivered via CBS O&Os and affiliates vice PBS.

There are currently several "beta" stations that are (starting to) broadcast digital TVGOS: (
spiffSPACE.com DHGHDD250/500 Resource Guide


)

California - Los Angeles KCBS *
California - San Francisco KPIX *
California - Sacramento KOVR
Colorado - Denver KCNC
Florida - Miami WFOR
Illinois - Chicago WBBM
Maryland - Baltimore WJZ
Massachusetts - Boston WBZ
Michigan - Detroit WWJ/WKBD
Minnesota - Minneapolis WCCO *
New York - New York WCBS
Pennsylvania - Philadelphia KYW
Pennsylvania - Pittsburgh KDKA
Texas - Austin KEYE
Texas - Dallas KTVT
Utah - Salt Lake City KUTV

To be honest, digital TVGOS devices are software upgradable and actually support both analog and digital TVGOS since the vast amount of guide data is still being delivered via analog. Additionally, it is unclear whether the Sony HD DVR, or many other devices for that matter, can be or will be upgraded to support digital TVGOS based on existing hardware/firmware, the age of the devices, and the devices being out of warranty. In almost all cases, I doubt the vendors will be breaking down doors to upgrade these devices to support digital TVGOS, even if it were possible, for myriad reasons. Anyway, my 20 year old analog TVs are well out of warrantly too, but that doesn't mean they should stop working after Feb 2009. Isn't that the real purpose of the DTV Coupons?

The Missing Link: Digital TVGOS to Analog TVGOS Conversion:

GemStar's Digital TVGOS uses a freely-available standard know as Digital Video Standard 706 (aka "VBI-in-MPEG" or "DVI-706") to carry TVGOS data once the transition of digital broadcasting is complete. "Once the transition of digital broadcasting has been completed, Gemstar-TV Guide intends to send TV Guide On Screen EPG data using DVS-706 in over-the-air digital signals ("Digital VBI Data"), which can be converted to analog VBI data by digital-to-analog converter boxes for use by existing analog television receivers with a TV Guide On Screen EPG." (Gemstar-TV Guide ltr to NTIA dtd, 25 Sep 2006 - see attached).

This is great news!...but where can I find one of these boxes? I would be very disappointed to see the Federal Government disenfranchise millions of TVGOS users by not encouraging CE manufacturers to support digital-to-analog TVGOS EPG. In fact, the NTIA specifially permits CECBs which support conversion of the GemStar TVGOS (para. 73-76 of DTV Coupon Final Ruling).

According the the
spiffSPACE.com DHGHDD250/500 Resource Guide




"All in all - the future of these DVRs is still a bit uncertain, but there may be hope that these DVRs won't become doorstops after the analog shutoff. It is difficult to say how well the digital guide downloads will work until the shutoff takes place, and the analog hosts stop broadcasting. Even manual recording (without the benefit of the on-screen guide) will be difficult after the analog shutoff, since the DVR's clock CANNOT be set manually. It even relies on TV signals for proper setting of the time and date!"

DTV Pal to the Rescue?:

According to GemStar TV Guide's letter to the Department of Commerce dated, 25 Sep 2006, (see attached) Gemstar requested the NTIA permit DTV Coupon elligibility for devices that adopt digital-to-analog converter boxes that "contain hardware modifications to convert and pass through all information contained in over-the-air digital broadcast television signals, including information necessary for operation of GemStar TV Guide's TV Guide On Screen electronic program guide ("EPG") or other third-party guides." Sweet!

For the past many months, it has been rumored the EchoStar TR-40 (aka DTV Pal) would support TVGOS in addition to PSIP. Although PSIP and TVGOS are two different animals, both can be supported and, perhaps, complement one another in various ways. As you may already know, PSIP allows digital broadcasters to embed infomation such as channels identifier, programming guide data, and Closed Captioning (CC) for the hearing impaired. The TVGOS EPG and CC are two of the items carried via analog VBI.

At first glance, it looks like the DTV Pal is a godsend for those of us owning a Sony HD DVR or the millions who possess devices using analog TVGOS. However, after reading the review and analyzing the available artifacts, there is nothing stating this device will, in fact, support DVI-706 or, in fact, supply analog TVGOS connected devices with EPG. To further complicate the issue, it makes no sense to toss in TVGOS G-link support for any TVGOS attached devices without providing conversion:

- The G-link cable is useless if the TVGOS already is capable of using digital TVGOS (don't really need the converter)
- The analog TVGOS would be rendered useless after Feb. 2009 since it can no longer receive TVGOS...unless the DTV Pal were to supply/convert digital TVGOS.

DTVPal.com Support Call, 888-667-063:

Well, after going back-and-forth numerous times and making no forward progress on this issue, I decided to contact the folks at DTVPal.com for an answer straight from the horses mouth. Here is the answer:

1. Although my call was answered by a Dish Network CSR, she did, in fact, have a DTVPal FAQ at her disposal. I explained that I recently read a review on SatelliteGuys.us about the product, but I had a question concerning analog TVGOS support since was not clearly covered in the review nor the product guide. After providing background information, I simply asked, "Does the DTV Pal convert TVGOS to analog (VBI) TVGOS or doesn't it?" Expecting to be transfered over to "tech support", I surprised when she said, "Yes!" less than a millisecond after the question passed my lips. When I asked for further clarification I was told, "Absolutely" just a quickly. Although my first inclination was to do a happy dance, I decided to question her further about her DTVPal knowledge. Within 10-seconds my excitement ceased after she told me how the DTVPal took analog signals sent by WB and others and converted them to digital signals your HD set could understand.

2. When I asked to speak to a DTVPal product engineer, i was transfered to a CSR who answered the phone "Dish Network". The pleasant young lady had no idea and no prepared notes about the DTVPal. When I asked to speak to a product engineer, I was told that I was being tansferred to Tech Support.

3. The gentleman in tech support was very professional, but he could not answer my specific question concerning TVGOS since is was not something covered in the web site he was viewing. When I wasked to be transfered to a DTV Pal product engineer, I was told that was not possible. When I was told it was also not possible to escalate my question to E* Corporate, I simply thanked him for his time and assistance in the matter.

Allright, since we all know that SatelliteGuys.us is the definitive answer for all matters pertaining to Dish Network equipment, I invite one of their product engineers to answer the following question, right here, and end all doubt:

		Does the DTV Pal convert digital TVGOS to analog (VBI) TVGOS and does it support DVI-706?

Thanks in advance!