Thread: TIVO to FTA?

A few weeks ago I ran across a TIVO box for sale. Am I correct in the assumpion that these are recording devices? If they are, are they adaptable to FTA? I didn't buy it because I know less about it than I do FTA, which isn't much. I didn't know if it has some kind of controlled access than only the major sat providers offer, or if it somehow might need to be authorized or card-controlled. If it willl work on FTA, would it need to be driven by a PVR-enabled receiver, or can it be installed between a regular FTA receiver and TV like the VCR I have? Any information would be helpful if I ever run across one again. Thanks,
Sky

TIVO Units need a subscription to work. The only ones that will work without a subscription are the Series I units. They usually have a lifetime sub. I learned that the hard way. I bought a Series II from a goodwill and couldn't get it past the "welcome" screen. It would just say "starting up" and wouldnt get past that

It can be hooked between the TV and the FTA box. They have an coax & a/v inputs

[quote=Iceberg;2141434]

I bought a Series II from a goodwill and couldn't get it past the "welcome" screen. It would just say "starting up" and wouldnt get past that

When it gets hung up on "Starting up", or "almost there" its usually a good sign of a bad hard drive. Something I also found out the hard way.

Originally Posted by Iceberg

TIVO Units need a subscription to work. The only ones that will work without a subscription are the Series I units. They usually have a lifetime sub. I learned that the hard way. I bought a Series II from a goodwill and couldn't get it past the "welcome" screen. It would just say "starting up" and wouldnt get past that

It can be hooked between the TV and the FTA box. They have an coax & a/v inputs

I have 3 of the series I TIVOs, none of which have a lifetime sub, and all work fine as a "dumb" VCR. They're only "dumb" with respect to not being able to give you the program guide, and functions that require the program guide. Actually, the Canadians figured out a way to import your own program guide into the thing, back when they weren't allowed to subscribe, but I never bothered to to try that.
I've been using mine for years, and for SD content, they are great. TIVO will still let the series I unsubscribed units log on and get channel lists, and set their clock, etc, and it's very easy to set up programming manually by time/channel, and actually that's more reliable than using the program guide anyway. Most people with subscribed units complain about things like NFL games being cut off at the end, when they go overtime, etc, or recording the wrong game. Doing it manually, I just added a half hour of recording, so I'd get everything if the game went long.

Anyway, series I are usable units, but if you want to use it with FTA, I'd get a standalone (SA) unit, and not one of the DTV/TIVO units that have a built in DirecTV, because the SA units have RCA A/V inputs. If you tell it that you have DTV or DN AND OTA, it will configure the upper channels to take input from the A/V, and the low channels to take input from the RF input, so you could conceivably have input from two different FTA boxes that way.

Also, if you buy a turbonet adapter from 9thtee, you can set up the TIVO to communicate with your computer via network, and you can download video to your computer and edit with a few different programs to create mpg files. You can also control the TIVO from your web browser. Adding the turbonet, and the various programs just mentioned require a bit of manipulation, usually involving pulling the HD, and mounting it in a computer while booting on a floppy or CD with a small version of Linux on it, but there are lots of directions on the web that makes it fairly easy to do if you are comfortable with changing hard drives and have even a slight knowledge of linux commands.

Thanks to all of you for your input, I'm glad I passed on it, sounds more involved than what I want to get into.
Sky

For the record:
Most Series 1s can manually record without a sub. It seems the change in policy was applied to manufacture around October 2001, where TiVos need a sub to record*.

*it seems sometimes a Series 2, when disconnected from its modem/network connection before it subscription is canceled, can sometimes retain the ability to manually record for some time, at least until it is allowed to call home again. BTW, amongst the honorable members of the couple TiVo boards I belong to, making a TiVo that ought to get service have subscribed features without subscription, is considered theft of the TiVo service, and there is no justification to do so.

Toshiba and Pioneer DVD combo units come with a free TiVo Basic level of service, but can optionally be subbed to the full service.

All Series 1/2 Standalones can manually work with most FTA receivers. TiVo doesn't have IR codes for most, if any FTA receivers. You can hack in IR codes for your FTA receiver, if you know how.

I have a Series 2 primarily set up for my pay satellite service, but has a fake cable lineup I use to manually record from my FTA box on the RF in.

DirecTV TiVos cannot be hacked to do FTA, or at least nobody has tried that I know of them.

Originally Posted by classicsat

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BTW, amongst the honorable members of the couple TiVo boards I belong to, making a TiVo that ought to get service have subscribed features without subscription, is considered theft of the TiVo service, and there is no justification to do so.

While I'd agree with it being theft of service if you're making the TIVO call TIVO to get program guide info, I don't agree with the wording with respect to "making a TiVo that ought to get service have subscribed features" *IF* that can be done without having the TIVO contact TIVO for the info. The best example of this is what the Canadians did. Ie from what I understand, they set up their own source of the programming info, and people just told their TIVO to call THAT number instead of the regular TIVO number, without any changes to their hardware.
Also, when it comes to the series I TIVOs, in my opinion, I guess it depends on how you define what you call "subscribed features", because those receivers were sold under the understanding that they would function as a dumb VCR without a subscription. To me anything you make those receivers do that doesn't involve having it fradulently getting programming info from TIVO, or changing the authorization status of the receiver somehow, should not be considered theft of service. Basically, I see the TIVO hardware and the TIVO service as two different things. If you buy the hardware, and can make it do something that a subscribed TIVO does, I don't see a problem with that. The problem come into play when you try to get the hardware utilize the TIVO service to perform that function. But that's just my opinion. Back when I used to read all the TIVO forums, there used to be several hacks that the TIVO company seemed to approve of and had no problem with, such as upgrading your hard drive to larger size, and adding TIVONET/TURBONET, and installing 3rd party tivoweb and other software. But for some reason, which I never quite understood, TIVO apparently did NOT approve of 3rd party software that would allow you to extract videos from the TIVO down to your computer. Perhaps they were afraid that they would be sued by the movie producers, but I really don't understand that, because the downloaded copies are hardly different from what you'd get by connecting a good VCR or DVD recorder to the TIVO, so I'm not quite sure why they were so sensitive about that. But apparently that sensitivity resulted in there being TIVO groups that discussed extracting videos and other TIVO groups that prohibited this discussion. But the groups I read didn't discuss anything about fradulently obtaining the TIVO service.

Originally Posted by classicsat

All Series 1/2 Standalones can manually work with most FTA receivers. TiVo doesn't have IR codes for most, if any FTA receivers. You can hack in IR codes for your FTA receiver, if you know how.

....

I think it is too complicated to even bother trying to get any FTA or 4DTV or analog receiver to be controlled by a TIVO. There are just too many variables involved. However the series I SA TIVOs work great in terms of recording whatever is coming in through the A/V inputs. I just tell it to record on any DTV channel, and it will record whatever is coming in over the A/V inputs, whether the the DTV is connected or not. Only problems with that are that I end up with a bunch of recordings that might be from some sat channel showing up as being on CNN or whatever channel I've left the TIVO on. Also, you have to control your FTA receiver separately, ie put it on the proper channel at the right time, or use the programming features on the FTA receiver to automatically take the receiver to that channel, then set up the TIVO to record at the proper time. Slightly more effort to set up 2 boxes to schedule a recording, but not much of a problem. I used to do this a lot before I got spoiled by all the HD stuff. I don't watch all that much SD content anymore, so I don't use my TIVO as much as I used to. It's too bad that the new HD TIVOs don't have any way to function with generic HD content, such as .TS streams from satellite. I think if they could do that, I'd think about buying a new one.

I noticed the screen shots that some ebay sellers put up state "lifetime service" in the Tivo acct status field and others state "not setup". So for a series 1 model, it doesn't matter?

Originally Posted by B.J.

While I'd agree with it being theft of service if you're making the TIVO call TIVO to get program guide info, I don't agree with the wording with respect to "making a TiVo that ought to get service have subscribed features" *IF* that can be done without having the TIVO contact TIVO for the info.

That is beside the point. The point is, on most models and software versions, a certain set of software features require subscription to enable. The way current versions of the Series 2 and 3 software is written is that you obtain service keys from TiVo, which enable the features of the TiVo software. I should mention the terms-of-use of the TiVo software, which make it clear some features require subscription.

The best example of this is what the Canadians did. Ie from what I understand, they set up their own source of the programming info, and people just told their TIVO to call THAT number instead of the regular TIVO number, without any changes to their hardware.

Actually no. Users of that system had to revert to an older version of the sofware on a Series 2, or use a Series 1. That "system" existed because TiVo never sold service in Canada when it was created. When TiVo officially sold service to Canadians, a lot of users of the "system" switched to the real TiVo service.

Also, when it comes to the series I TIVOs, in my opinion, I guess it depends on how you define what you call "subscribed features", because those receivers were sold under the understanding that they would function as a dumb VCR without a subscription.

True, but that mode of operation did not make enough money for TiVo, so they changed the policy on newer units to require subscription for any recording feature.

To me anything you make those receivers do that doesn't involve having it fradulently getting programming info from TIVO, or changing the authorization status of the receiver somehow, should not be considered theft of service. Basically, I see the TIVO hardware and the TIVO service as two different things. If you buy the hardware, and can make it do something that a subscribed TIVO does, I don't see a problem with that. The problem come into play when you try to get the hardware utilize the TIVO service to perform that function. But that's just my opinion.

You are forgetting the TiVo software, which comes with a terms of use license whose terms state it requires subscription to do much of anything. You need to change the authorization status of the TiVo to use the features, either by patching the software, or by faking the TiVo service, and since that would deprive TiVo of the subscription revenue, it is considered "Theft of service" If you can make the TiVo hardware work without the TiVo software (and therefore its subscription requirement) at all, all the better for you, but I haven't heard of any non-TiVo DVR software to run on TiVo hardware. If you think your rights should be otherwise, complain to TiVo to change the TOS and software (which they are likely not to do, since the Series 2 platform is practically dead for further development).

Back when I used to read all the TIVO forums, there used to be several hacks that the TIVO company seemed to approve of and had no problem with, such as upgrading your hard drive to larger size, and adding TIVONET/TURBONET, and installing 3rd party tivoweb and other software.

Most of those mods never took anything away from TiVo Inc.

But for some reason, which I never quite understood, TIVO apparently did NOT approve of 3rd party software that would allow you to extract videos from the TIVO down to your computer. Perhaps they were afraid that they would be sued by the movie producers, but I really don't understand that, because the downloaded copies are hardly different from what you'd get by connecting a good VCR or DVD recorder to the TIVO, so I'm not quite sure why they were so sensitive about that.

Actually, it wasn't TiVo, it was the tivocommunity forum with that rule. In exchange for Tivo's support and participation, they would have that rule. As for why, likely because it was too easy to have what at the time would be nearly perfect copies, which is what could put TiVo in hot water with the studios et al.

But apparently that sensitivity resulted in there being TIVO groups that discussed extracting videos and other TIVO groups that prohibited this discussion. But the groups I read didn't discuss anything about fradulently obtaining the TIVO service.

They respected the TiVo service and had rules banning how-to disussions. Any discussion basically turned into a why/not thread.

I think it is too complicated to even bother trying to get any FTA or 4DTV or analog receiver to be controlled by a TIVO. There are just too many variables involved. However the series I SA TIVOs work great in terms of recording whatever is coming in through the A/V inputs. I just tell it to record on any DTV channel, and it will record whatever is coming in over the A/V inputs, whether the the DTV is connected or not. Only problems with that are that I end up with a bunch of recordings that might be from some sat channel showing up as being on CNN or whatever channel I've left the TIVO on. Also, you have to control your FTA receiver separately, ie put it on the proper channel at the right time, or use the programming features on the FTA receiver to automatically take the receiver to that channel, then set up the TIVO to record at the proper time. Slightly more effort to set up 2 boxes to schedule a recording, but not much of a problem.

That is basically how I use my TiVo (Series 2 with PL serivice) with FTA, although mine is set up primarily for a very existant pay satellite TV service (Shaw Direct/StarChoice), and a non existant cable TV service (Rogers Toronto), which I originally had set up becasue they have NASA on their digital lineup, so I could use it with a Dish receiver set on NASA TV, which I traded for an FTA receiver. I use the NASA channel on that cable lineup as a gateway for my FTA receiver to record it. I manually set channnels on the FTA receiver as needed, and also have it directly connected to an A/V in on the TV.

I used to do this a lot before I got spoiled by all the HD stuff. I don't watch all that much SD content anymore, so I don't use my TIVO as much as I used to. It's too bad that the new HD TIVOs don't have any way to function with generic HD content, such as .TS streams from satellite. I think if they could do that, I'd think about buying a new one.

I watch SD from TIVo quite a bit. FTA I usually just watch/listen to on weekends.