Thread: Can you scale 1080i/60 to 1080p/24

Are VP's like the DVDO able to receive a 1080i/60 signal and output it to the display at 1080p/24hz?

Looks like you can input and output anything you want with a lumagen. Im close to buying the Radiance Mini-3D. It has all the horsepower of the bigger guys but not all the connections. Trying to get clarification on calibration in 2D and 3D. If it does everything I think it does, it allows for an outstanding about of reference calibration in both modes, especially its 3D CMS.

Jason- Is there a reason why you need to do that? While the scaling is not difficult, deinterlace 1080 60i to 1080 30p then do 2/3 pull down to 24p and it will look pretty good, done twice for 3D frame packed signal on HDMI. But why not just view as a pass through 60i to the projector? The real problem is going the other way, 24 fps film to video at 60i. ( 59.94) But who uses sources at 24p? Blu ray movies, that's who. Now we have the challenge to get those BD's into a projector for display at 60i. So, this is why mfgs went to great lengths to make projectors 24p native. Now the Blu Ray movies can be shown with no conversion, and the projector can be easily switched to scan at 60i too for those sources.

I can see only one reason to convert 60i programming to 24p. That would be to achieve that mystical appearance of slow film frame rate sense of being surreal. It's not a technical thing but rather an art form. But absent the artistic reasoning, converting 60i to 24p offers only a reduction in technical image quality.

Even if you have a program source that was 24p originally ( a movie) and was converted to 60i for distribution (television) converting it back to 24p for projection will not recover the data lost in the telecine process for film to TV broadcast conversion. In effect you will spend money for a device that will do nothing more than give you an art form look, but may also add processing noise and conversion artifacts in that effort.


Now having said that, ( for basic home theater) I have a conundrum as a video producer and editor. Today, my camcorders all produce 3D content recorded at 60i but if I want to make a blu ray to bluray standards, I have to do that 60i conversion to 24p in the software which has been a challenge for many codecs this past year. The latest version of Sony Vegas Pro has created an algorithm to smooth out the motion skipped in the 2/3 pull down. While not mathematically perfect it does a pretty good job. To achieve perfection, however, I can shoot my 3D using two camcorders in 2D mode that record at a native 24p. End of problem! But this rig is bulky. There are now 3D camcorders that shoot in 24p native too but these are double+ the cost of 60i 3D camcorders. There is also a new spec in the BluRay industry that has yet to be adopted. AVCHD 2.0. This will allow bluray players to use bluray disks with content at 60p so now these 60i camcorders can be used without conversion. Right now only Sony makes players that are AVCHD 2.0 compliant as the spec has not yet become standard.

The bottom line to all this is if you want perfection, don't convert. Your 24p projector will run at 24p or 60i depending on the inbound signal. If you are looking for art form of 24fps, then convert but you may suffer with added noise from the circuits and artifacts of conversion.

Thanks Don, great info. My plasma has a 96hz mode that of course only works on 24hz sources. I was curious, as I was looking at VP's, what something like CSI HD at 1080i/60 converted to 1080p/24 with the Lumagen and then processed by my set with 96hz mode would look like. Just experimentation, and I was unsure whether that was a possible conversion, but the Lumagen units will just about do anything you want.

I have the Radiance Mini-3D on the way, and have Gregg Loewen scheduled for late this month sometime. Going to let him calibrate the display, and then use two CMS modes on the Lumagen to dial in 2D and 3D with Gamma/Grayscale/Color. The 3D CMS these things have will help my color result in both 2D and 3D, but the 10pt Gamma and Grayscale in 3D will be something I do not have. The Samsung has limited control in 3D mode, so Im pretty excited. Plus I get top notch scaling.

Im basically going to send every source i have into the Lumagen at their Native signal, and then let the Lumagen send 1080p/60 to the display.

Most newer TVs are smart enough to detect 2:3 and pull out 24P automatically from a 60i source. If your plasma is doing 96hz then it definitely has the pulldown working.

On these plasmas, you can only enable 96hz mode with a 1080p/24 input.

Jason- Don't know what Display you have but just be careful you aren't throwing $$$ away upstream only to display in a older panel monitor. The Lumagen is very nice, even their low end Mini but most of what it can do is redundant to some better projectors. I used to use a VP when I had an older low end projector but discovered that had I spent the combination of VP and PJ on a better PJ I would have the same features and quality with a simpler hardware set and no double conversions. Panels like you mention often are quite limited on access to image control while high end projectors costing the combo of VP + panel give you that access. This is more of a cost/benefit decision than one of a a scan need. When Blu Ray first came out I bought a DVDO VP to do exactly as you plan but it was short lived when the PJ broke out of warranty and my next PJ could do native 24p. The DVDO now showed all it's problems so I pulled it. Became unnecessary. The Lumagen is technically superior to the DVDO but just as costly. I still think conversion processing is to be avoided if you can. For purchase- I see Curt Palme had a pretty good handle on discounts. He is good people and I have relationship with him going back to the 90's and CRT days.

PS- My PJ does all modes at 240 Hz. native. Let me tell you, the motion improvement on all modes is superior.

Don,

Understood. I really like my current 64" plasma ($2800 and 8 months old) , and thought about upgrading to a new model this year. Issue being, I'd spend another $4000, maybe make some money off my current tv if I want to sell it, then be subjected to another year of early adopter problems. I also owned a DVDO Duo, which I enjoyed becuase my display did not have 10pt Gamma/Grayscale adjustment, or CMS controls. Duo really added a lot to PQ and accuracy.

When I went 3D and bought this Samsung, I sold the Duo because it only passes 3D (no calibration) and the Samsung has a great 2D calibration feature set. After contemplating the last week, and calibration this Samsung many times myself, I feel I want to keep it long term and the Lumagen helps me here.

As posted above, I gain:

Better color accuracy in 2D
Much better color, grayscale and gamma in 3D

The lack of control in 3D never bothered me, but since Im moving back into watching 3D movies, Id like for just as accurate as possible picture on both 3D and 2D. Many sub $4k displays today have calibration issues, regardless of control, and the lumagen adds reference abilities. It also, in case of a failure, allows me to connect to ChromaPure with my meter and run an autocalibration in 2D and 3D. Since you generally can't get a professional calibrator out quickly, it allows me to get back close to reference fairly easily.

As far as the scaling goes, of say 1080i/60/720p/60 from Directv, I do not expect much. I also full intend to send it native Directv and Blu-ray signals, only to have it convert to 1080p/60 for the display, to limit conversions. This purchase is mostly for calibration ability in 2D and 3D modes. Its a neat and complicated device, which is why Im letting Gregg do it. If I get in a bind down the road, I can buy an auto cal license from ChromaPure and let it auto calibrate for me.

I ended up getting it from Curt Palme for $1499 shipped.

Yes, it's really tough to bite the bullet if your current panel is only 8 months old. Plus, it finally sunk in that you were working with a plasma, not a PJ. From what I saw at CES, you may be a candidate for one of those OLED 3D displays in a year or two. and likely the VP will continue to work for that. Also, you did fine in the purchase price.

Personally, with all the new 4K stuff out I was relieved that they really didn't have anything exciting for 4K 3D except from JVC. Sony wasn't ready yet, only 2D 4K. But I promised my wife last year's investment should be good for awhile. When I start seeing 4K content, then I'll get serious again. Besides, the big deal this year was flat screen passive projectors. Mine is still active but that gets me full resolution. So many choices...