Thread: Need help with a HT receiver/amp/speakers recommendation !!

Hi folks! I have some cheapo HTIB systems including a Sony Dream. Those have served me well, meaning that my needs are - at this point of my life - modest at best. (I used to be an audiophile back in the days of vinyl and spent every available dollar on that hobby/obsession. Alas, my hearing is not nearly as acute as it once was and I have trouble discerning the difference anymore between a modest system and a great system other than obvious things like overload distortion. And high volume is no longer a priority either! I just want to "feel" it at a comfortable level...)

So for my living room system I want to stretch the envelope a bit more than my existing equipment allows, and I currently have only a synthesized SS experience, not true DD5.1 or equivalent. I have no objection to another 1-box solution except from what I'm reading here the flexibility is quite limited, and the audio quality on the low end. I have set a budget of ~$1,500 (coincidentally the amount of my pending "rebate") but it's not a hard limit.

Currently I have a Sony XBR2 TV, a Dish 211 receiver, and a Toshiba A2 HD DVR in this location. I want to be able to reproduce "true" surround sound in its various renderings. At some point I will add a BD player in this location as well, so it's looking like I will need capability for 3 sources.

I don't see any advantage to passing-through the HDMI video unless someone can tell me why. The TV has 3 HDMI inputs so I could connect the 3 video sources directly and use the TV as the "switcher". Anything wrong with that logic? Then I would be sending some form of digital audio signal from each source to the receiver. The A2 will do this by either HDMI or optical, and the 211 is optical only, IIRC. (The audio in the 211's HDMI connection is only L+R stereo and not DD5.1, correct?) I have no idea what a BD player will have, but I assume it will offer at least full HDMI and optical.

Best Buy currently has a package system for $900 that includes a Yamaha reveiver (RX-V463BL), 5 Klipsch (?) speakers identified as "Synergy Series Quintet III", and a powered sub identified as "Sub-10". Do you think this would suit my modest needs? I noted that it only has 2 HDMI inputs and no idea what other inputs are available on it.

Knowing my current system and an idea of where I think I'm headed with this, what else could you recommend? Should I be going 7.1 instead of just 5.1? What about that $2K Bose system ??

TIA for your comments and advice, and BRgds...!

Originally Posted by bhelms

Hi folks! I have some cheapo HTIB systems including a Sony Dream. Those have served me well, meaning that my needs are - at this point of my life - modest at best. (I used to be an audiophile back in the days of vinyl and spent every available dollar on that hobby/obsession. Alas, my hearing is not nearly as acute as it once was and I have trouble discerning the difference anymore between a modest system and a great system other than obvious things like overload distortion. And high volume is no longer a priority either! I just want to "feel" it at a comfortable level...)

So for my living room system I want to stretch the envelope a bit more than my existing equipment allows, and I currently have only a synthesized SS experience, not true DD5.1 or equivalent. I have no objection to another 1-box solution except from what I'm reading here the flexibility is quite limited, and the audio quality on the low end. I have set a budget of ~$1,500 (coincidentally the amount of my pending "rebate") but it's not a hard limit.

Currently I have a Sony XBR2 TV, a Dish 211 receiver, and a Toshiba A2 HD DVR in this location. I want to be able to reproduce "true" surround sound in its various renderings. At some point I will add a BD player in this location as well, so it's looking like I will need capability for 3 sources.

I don't see any advantage to passing-through the HDMI video unless someone can tell me why. The TV has 3 HDMI inputs so I could connect the 3 video sources directly and use the TV as the "switcher". Anything wrong with that logic? Then I would be sending some form of digital audio signal from each source to the receiver. The A2 will do this by either HDMI or optical, and the 211 is optical only, IIRC. (The audio in the 211's HDMI connection is only L+R stereo and not DD5.1, correct?) I have no idea what a BD player will have, but I assume it will offer at least full HDMI and optical.

Best Buy currently has a package system for $900 that includes a Yamaha reveiver (RX-V463BL), 5 Klipsch (?) speakers identified as "Synergy Series Quintet III", and a powered sub identified as "Sub-10". Do you think this would suit my modest needs? I noted that it only has 2 HDMI inputs and no idea what other inputs are available on it.

Knowing my current system and an idea of where I think I'm headed with this, what else could you recommend? Should I be going 7.1 instead of just 5.1? What about that $2K Bose system ??

TIA for your comments and advice, and BRgds...!

OK, start with the standard Bose disclaimer. Bose is as good a bargain for systems as Monster is for cables. Middle of the road quality at an absolute premium price.

You might want to look at this system from CC:

receiver:
Buy the Onkyo TX-SR606 7.1 Home Theater Receiver - Black and other Home audio receivers & amplifiers at circuitcity.com

4 HDMI inputs and upconversion of analog video. Well rated by the members here (although I have tended to do Denon, I am looking at this one)

speakers:
Buy the Boston Acoustics Horizon MCS100 Surround Sound System and other Home audio speaker systems at circuitcity.com




or this one (both are reasonable)

Buy the Polk Audio 5.1 Home Theater System and other Home audio speaker systems at circuitcity.com




I think this will do significantly more than the bundled Yamaha system at about the same price.

The switching is important if you have a family as it provides the WAF of only having to switch one thing to get from the DVD player to the satellite receiver.

I'm not a big fan of 7.1 personally, as very few movies I watfch even make effective use of 5.1, much less the lfe channels. (BUT THIS IS A 7.1 SYSTEM)

Great jayn-j, tks! I'll stop off there tonight on the way home. I remember seeing the BA system set up there a few weeks ago but I didn't stop for a listen. Price is OK especially with the "in-store" pickup discounts to be applied. I like the 4 HDMI inputs capability on the Onkyo.

Any harm in not connecting those 2 extra speakers? (Back in the day there was almost as much chance of damaging a high power output "driving" an open load as a shorted one!)

No WAF here (widower) and as far as kids go I am presently a true "empty nester", but there are currently 4 remotes on the table to juggle. Someday I'll "Harmonize" but until then it can't hurt to reduce the complexity!

Tks again and BRgds...

I'll second these recommendations. I like Onkyo receivers, they are a good value, this one also has the ability to decode the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio tracks via HDMI that are available on many HDD, so you'll be in good shape when you get a Blu-ray player.

NightRyder

Tks NightRyder - That's more good news!

I noticed that this 606 model is brand new and not yet available at CC. (Supposedly should be in a couple of days.) So that made me look around at other options and I started comparing to the 805 that is the topic of one stickie in this forum. And that of course raised some questions:

1) What exactly does "THX-certified" mean? The 805 is and the 606 is not. What would I be losing with the 606?

2) Similar question re: HDMI 1.3. In this case the 606 has this compatibility and the 805 (apparently) does not. Is that what allows the TrueHD, MA, etc. signals to propagate over HDMI? (There is also some video color depth/quality implications but probably a non-issue for my XBR2 that won't have the capability anyway. I'm not likely to upgrade that anytime soon!)

3) There would be a 2x+ price difference to go to the 805. What would make that difference worth it? (I.e., what added bennies are there that a "modest" listener could appreciate?)

Also:

4) What is a minimum speaker gauge I should be running. I'm using either 20- or 18-ga now (limited memory, another age related problem!). Do I need that same gauge for all speakers? (Approx. 35' to each rear location.)

Tks again...

Originally Posted by bhelms

Tks NightRyder - That's more good news!

I noticed that this 606 model is brand new and not yet available at CC. (Supposedly should be in a couple of days.) So that made me look around at other options and I started comparing to the 805 that is the topic of one stickie in this forum. And that of course raised some questions:

1) What exactly does "THX-certified" mean? The 805 is and the 606 is not. What would I be losing with the 606?

2) Similar question re: HDMI 1.3. In this case the 606 has this compatibility and the 805 (apparently) does not. Is that what allows the TrueHD, MA, etc. signals to propagate over HDMI? (There is also some video color depth/quality implications but probably a non-issue for my XBR2 that won't have the capability anyway. I'm not likely to upgrade that anytime soon!)

3) There would be a 2x+ price difference to go to the 805. What would make that difference worth it? (I.e., what added bennies are there that a "modest" listener could appreciate?)

Also:

4) What is a minimum speaker gauge I should be running. I'm using either 20- or 18-ga now (limited memory, another age related problem!). Do I need that same gauge for all speakers? (Approx. 35' to each rear location.)

Tks again...

1. THX is basically a seal of approval. They put the equipment through tests to make sure that it performs up to their standards. It's not anything I would worry about.

2. You want 1.3 - See Below:


Understanding HDMI Ver 1.3 — Audioholics Home Theater Reviews and News

What does HDMI 1.3 do that previous versions didn’t do?

HDMI 1.3a adds six benefits to the HDMI palette. The most obvious and easiest to understand is higher data transfer speed. The HDMI 1.3a standard increases single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps), which will support demands of future HD display devices incorporating higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. Keep in mind that previous versions of HDMI are fully capable of 1080p performance. Even more, the FCC has presented no imminent plans for a “higher” high-definition system than 1080p. Because 1080p has just begun to enter the market this increased bandwidth can be considered more a hedge against future applications than something the industry and consumers can benefit from in the near future.

HDMI 1.3a also supports a format known as Deep Color. You may see this referred to as Extended-gamut YCC (xvYCC). Deep Color is a new color space used in video electronics. It can support 1.8 times as many colors as RGB. RGB, as you may know, creates colors through a mixture of Red, Green, and Blue primary colors. Deep Color defines colors by means of an algorithm that can specify any color in nature.

This improvement in color performance is significant only in specifications. Current HDTV broadcasts (and the current HDMI standard) uses 8-bit color depth. The new HDMI 1.3a standard with Deep Color capability expands the number of colors viewable on an HDTV from millions to billions, while eliminating color banding and subtle gradations between colors through the use of 10-bit, 12-bit, and 16-bit color depths. It is vitally important to understand that every movie ever transferred to DVD or any other digital format has been done using 8-bit color depth. While the new Deep Color format could provide an improvement in picture quality, there currently is no content (no movies, TV shows or archived material) available that can be easily trans-coded into the new system. With the existing issues of Digital Rights Management (DRM) and High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) just beginning to be worked out it is highly unlikely that Hollywood and the entertainment industry will rush to provide software that is a clone of the original movie quality. The first place Deep Color is likely to be used is in advanced gaming systems, but even that milestone seems beyond the immediate future.

HDMI 1.3a incorporates automatic audio syncing (lip sync) capability. This is a system that will automatically adjust for the difference in electronic latency between the processing circuits of the sound and image. This discrepancy sometimes manifests itself as a slight delay in the sound compared to the image.

HDMI 1.3a supports output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers. TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. If the disc player can decode these streams into uncompressed audio, then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary, as all versions of HDMI can transport uncompressed audio.

HDMI 1.3a provides for a new mini connector for devices such as camcorders.

3. More money buys more power 130W vs 90 per channel, more connections and THX Certification. At the price level of the 805 I'd pay a little extra and get a Denon 3808ci but it doesn't sound like you need that kind of horse power anyway so I'd stick with the 606.

4. I use 12 GA wire with Banna Plugs for all my speaker runs (probably overkill). MonoPrice.com has both wire and connectors reasonably priced.


NightRyder

NightRyder nailed it on the head. I was busy collecting a good THX reference. The THX website is
www.thx.com

A good explanation can be found here:
Feature Article




I have used both 12 ga speaker cord and 14 ga lamp cord and frankly have not heard a difference. I would not go for less than 14 ga on longer runs. The thinner wire has more resistance per foot. Not a big deal at 5 feet, but it starts to matter at 30-50 feet. A lower resistance means that less current flows at a given amplifier output voltage. Than means you need to crank the volume up to get the same effect. That means less headroom before distortion sets in.

Also, if you are running low impedence speakers (4 ohms), you will find that the cable itself can change the response curve of the speakers.

It probably wouldn't matter in your application, but I have seen cases where a large amp connected to inefficient speakers through a long run of 22 ga caused the wire to become noticably warm to the touch as well.

Also, on your previous question. I wouldn't worry about not using the LFE channels. Most reasonable receivers have provisions for disabling unused channels. I would bet that the Onkyo would not only ground inputs to the amp, but would redirect signal in the processor to the main speakers as well.

Tks again, guys! Your answers have been great! "Sounds" like lack of THX certification isn't going to hurt in a "modest" system, but HDMI 1.3a is essential. Too bad the 805 doesn't have that capability (?) Guess I need to confirm that. You're right, I don't need the high power, but I do want the other higher-end capabilities that we're discussing.

I'll stop at CC tonight to see what the scoop is on the 606. I also noted another couple more possible downsides of that unit based on the CC on-line spec. sheet. It says the 606 doesn't have on screen display (? - that's a real head scratcher!) nor a subwoofer output which I take to mean that it has a channel out for a passive sub but no preamp out for a powered sub (?) All of the speaker systems I'm looking at would have a powered sub.

I know the story on the speaker cable resistance issues (EE here). "Back in the days" one of the critical speaker performance criteria was "damping factor". IIRC it's more critical at the lower frequencies where a poor DF would cause bass frequencies to muddy. The best example I knew was a bass drum should "thud" instead of "boom". Best DF was achieved with a very low resistance path, otherwise the circuit can "ring". I know that every milliohm of added resistance in the path hurts the DF, and that's where the heavy gauge cables, gold plated connectors, etc. all played a role. I never hear anything about DF anymore, guessing that a powered sub (amp close to speaker) eliminates a lot of the user-controllable factors. Since most of the 5, 6, or 7 speakers in the system won't reproduce the LFs anyway, perhaps DF is not a factor at all. But I can appreciate all the other reasons for a heavier gauge wire. At today's copper price, I might need to add another $200 to the system price just to pay for the wire!

I also saw a Yamaha RX-V188BL that might be equivalent to the 805 for about $100 less ($1,100?). But it does have the 1.3a and TrueHD, DTS-HD MA capabilities as well. This unit also has phono inputs, and I assume (hope!) those would be like 5mV level - might allow me to still connect my turntable! Might be worth checking out...

Originally Posted by bhelms

Tks again, guys! Your answers have been great! "Sounds" like lack of THX certification isn't going to hurt in a "modest" system, but HDMI 1.3a is essential. Too bad the 805 doesn't have that capability (?) Guess I need to confirm that. You're right, I don't need the high power, but I do want the other higher-end capabilities that we're discussing.

I'll stop at CC tonight to see what the scoop is on the 606. I also noted another couple more possible downsides of that unit based on the CC on-line spec. sheet. It says the 606 doesn't have on screen display (? - that's a real head scratcher!) nor a subwoofer output which I take to mean that it has a channel out for a passive sub but no preamp out for a powered sub (?) All of the speaker systems I'm looking at would have a powered sub.

I know the story on the speaker cable resistance issues (EE here). "Back in the days" one of the critical speaker performance criteria was "damping factor". IIRC it's more critical at the lower frequencies where a poor DF would cause bass frequencies to muddy. The best example I knew was a bass drum should "thud" instead of "boom". Best DF was achieved with a very low resistance path, otherwise the circuit can "ring". I know that every milliohm of added resistance in the path hurts the DF, and that's where the heavy gauge cables, gold plated connectors, etc. all played a role. I never hear anything about DF anymore, guessing that a powered sub (amp close to speaker) eliminates a lot of the user-controllable factors. Since most of the 5, 6, or 7 speakers in the system won't reproduce the LFs anyway, perhaps DF is not a factor at all. But I can appreciate all the other reasons for a heavier gauge wire. At today's copper price, I might need to add another $200 to the system price just to pay for the wire!

I also saw a Yamaha RX-V188BL that might be equivalent to the 805 for about $100 less ($1,100?). But it does have the 1.3a and TrueHD, DTS-HD MA capabilities as well. This unit also has phono inputs, and I assume (hope!) those would be like 5mV level - might allow me to still connect my turntable! Might be worth checking out...

It looks like the 606 does have both OSD and a SUB pre out. Here are the specs at Onkyo's site.


Onkyo TX-SR606 - 7.1-Channel Home Theater Receiver | Model Information | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

NightRyder