DIRECTV SD Service on CRT HDTV

[JohnHammock]

Anyone have an opinion of the best way to view DIRECTV SD Service? I'm sure most will say on a CRT SDTV, but then what do I do about OTA HD channels? I'm trying to figure out a solution for watching DIRECTV SD service and HD sources like OTA all on one TV, and I thought one of the old rare CRT HDTV's would be the solution, until I hooked the DIRECTV receiver to the CRT HDTV and realized the picture looks worse than on a regular CRT SDTV. I finally learned that this is because of two things: 1. DIRECTV SD service outputs in 480i, which normally wouldn't look any worse than 480i OTA, but does because it's MPEG-2 super compressed, and 2. The CRT HDTV, although being a CRT, still deinterlaces and converts the 480i signal to 480p but doesn't have enough data within the overly-compressed satellite signal to convert to and display in 480p to look as good as regular OTA 480i.

My question is, does anyone know anything to do about this? It would be great to watch DIRECTV SD service, OTA HD channels, Blue Ray, etc. all on one TV and it all look right. The CRT HDTV automatically converts 480i to 480p no matter what, with no way for it not to.

Do you think running DIRECTV SD service through an HD receiver would help at all?

What about some kind of special external graphics processor?

Anything? Thanks a lot!

 

[Claude Greiner]

No issues using an HD receiver to view SD content.

Only advantage is the down resolution conversion on the HD channels will look better than the SD channels. Just have to fight the aspect ratio with 4x3 vs 16x9

 

[JohnHammock]

No issues using an HD receiver to view SD content.

Only advantage is the down resolution conversion on the HD channels will look better than the SD channels. Just have to fight the aspect ratio with 4x3 vs 16x9

Well I have SD service and an SD receiver... I've posted this on other websites like AVSForum and it seems like it takes a few times before someone realizes what I'm actually trying to do. Basically I'm trying to come up with a solution for being able to watch SD DIRECTV on an HDTV and it look at least as good as other SD feeds like OTA SD. Somehow a way to fix the glittery pixels of the converted, compressrd DIRECTV SD signal. I have it hooked to a CRT HDTV, but even it deinterlaces 480i to 480p, hence the bad picture quality (worse than other SD sources on it) simply because the DIRECTV SD 480i signal is compressed, whereas OTA SD is not. There's no way to make the CRT HDTV display in plain 480i (I don't think). It's converts 480i to p by default.

It be great to be able to watch DIRECTV SD service on a HDTV and it look as good as on an SDTV. I figured a CRT HDTV would be able to display in plain 480i and be the solution to watch DIRECTV SD and OTA HD all on one TV.

Anyone know of a way to make the CRT HDTV display in 480i (I don't think that's possible), or somehow improve the signal quality of the compressed DIRECTV SD signal? What would running the SD service through an HD receiver do? Also, are there fancy gadgets that would help like a graphics card or maybe some kind of special monitor that can display both SD and HD correctly? Thanks!

 

[stvcmty]

Also, are there fancy gadgets that would help like a graphics card or maybe some kind of special monitor that can display both SD and HD correctly? Thanks!

Are you stretching a 4:3 signal to fill a 16:9 display? If you are, that will make any compression more visible side to side.

How big is your TV? I DVR shows from SD channels to save space on my HR44’s hard drive, and watch them on a 32” LCD HDTV and other than being 4:3 with black bars they don’t look overly compressed. The bigger the TV, the more defects will be apparent in the SD content.

Are you using the best output available on your SD receiver to connect to your TV? S-video will look slightly better than composite. Don’t go crazy on cables, but use something with reasonable quality. How long is the run from your receiver to your TV? If it is more than 20’, there are better things to do than use a thin premade S-video cable. In my opinion, for a good s-video cable, Blue Jeans Cable is a nice place to start.

You could get an external converter/scalar and see if it does a cleaner job than whatever processing the TV is doing. Even looking for an inexpensive converter from monoprice, you are looking at $50. From a HDTV specialty store, something fancy to take S-video and turn it into component with 720p upscaling is going to start around $150.

I heard your question, and I assume you are trying to use the SD equipment you have to keep your bill as it is currently, so what follows is my opinion, which you do not need to act on. Above I did my best to answer your question without saying what I imagine everyone has said anywhere else you have asked, which is “get a HD box”. But examining that option, when looking at gizmos and gadgets to use what I have to avoid paying any more a month on my bill, I have to look at the payback period. I would guess you getting HD service would put you in a 2 year contract with a free equipment upgrade, and it would add $15/month to your bill (I actually do not know how HD , whole home, DVR and other features are added to old accounts, so I am just making a guess based on what I pay). So, if your bill went up $15/month, the payback period compared to keeping what you have and getting a $150 scaler would be 10 months. If a good picture is worth an extra $210 to you, then maybe call DirecTV and talk about equipment upgrades. (new equipment -> 2yr contract. Payback period on a scaler is 10 months. That leaves 14 months of an extra $15/mo; 14*15=$210 above and beyond what the scaler would have cost).

 

[texasbrit]

Yes, I wondered why you didn't just take the plunge and go for HD.
FYI some HDTVs display a reasonable picture even with the poor quality you get on some DirecTV SD signals (particularly the locals) but you would need to ask around/post to see what recommendations people have.
The thing to remember about scalers is that they use the existing pixels adjacent to the ones they are trying to create in order to calculate (more like a scientific guess!) the missing pixels. That means if the existing signal is noisy or otherwise poor quality, the artificially-created ones will be poor also. The scalers that do the best job can run thousands of dollars.

 

[ejb1980]

SD should be outlawed. Come to this century and stop holding progress back!

 

[JohnHammock]

Are you stretching a 4:3 signal to fill a 16:9 display? If you are, that will make any compression more visible side to side.

How big is your TV? I DVR shows from SD channels to save space on my HR44’s hard drive, and watch them on a 32” LCD HDTV and other than being 4:3 with black bars they don’t look overly compressed. The bigger the TV, the more defects will be apparent in the SD content.

Are you using the best output available on your SD receiver to connect to your TV? S-video will look slightly better than composite. Don’t go crazy on cables, but use something with reasonable quality. How long is the run from your receiver to your TV? If it is more than 20’, there are better things to do than use a thin premade S-video cable. In my opinion, for a good s-video cable, Blue Jeans Cable is a nice place to start.

You could get an external converter/scalar and see if it does a cleaner job than whatever processing the TV is doing. Even looking for an inexpensive converter from monoprice, you are looking at $50. From a HDTV specialty store, something fancy to take S-video and turn it into component with 720p upscaling is going to start around $150.

I heard your question, and I assume you are trying to use the SD equipment you have to keep your bill as it is currently, so what follows is my opinion, which you do not need to act on. Above I did my best to answer your question without saying what I imagine everyone has said anywhere else you have asked, which is “get a HD box”. But examining that option, when looking at gizmos and gadgets to use what I have to avoid paying any more a month on my bill, I have to look at the payback period. I would guess you getting HD service would put you in a 2 year contract with a free equipment upgrade, and it would add $15/month to your bill (I actually do not know how HD , whole home, DVR and other features are added to old accounts, so I am just making a guess based on what I pay). So, if your bill went up $15/month, the payback period compared to keeping what you have and getting a $150 scaler would be 10 months. If a good picture is worth an extra $210 to you, then maybe call DirecTV and talk about equipment upgrades. (new equipment -> 2yr contract. Payback period on a scaler is 10 months. That leaves 14 months of an extra $15/mo; 14*15=$210 above and beyond what the scaler would have cost).

Yeah I hear you, and appreciate the consideration. I pretty much understand the basic stuff stated in your suggestions. I'm using s-video out tried on two different CRT HDTV's: the Samsung Slimfit TX-R2779H and the Sony WEGA TRINITRON KV-30HS420. The Samsung is 27" 4:3 screen, nothing stretched. The Sony is widescreen, but put in 4:3 mode with sidebars. Both TV's have good conversion technology, especially the Sony's DRC modes.

I don't think I need something to convert 480i to p. That's what I'm trying to avoid if possible, but from what I've read, any HDTV even CRT HDTV'S are simply not able to display in 480i. So I'm not sure what to do. The satellite signal is too compressed anyway.

I wonder if there's any TV's that are somehow able to display HD and plain 480i correctly.

I

 

[texasbrit]

I think the problem is that the TV only displays in 1080i. Everything else has to be converted. And if it's an interlaced signal, it has to be converted to progressive first and then the interlaced signal is created from that. Scalers will do that also.
What makes you think that you are going to create a decent picture from the DirecTv signal with ANY sort of processing? Why are you trying to do this anyway, whatever you are spending is surely a waste of money?
Have you tried this on a digital HDTV?

 

[JohnHammock]

Anyone know of a special TV that can actually properly display both HD and plain SD 480i that's not deinterlaced to 480p?

 

[JohnHammock]

I think the problem is that the TV only displays in 1080i. Everything else has to be converted. And if it's an interlaced signal, it has to be converted to progressive first and then the interlaced signal is created from that. Scalers will do that also.
What makes you think that you are going to create a decent picture from the DirecTv signal with ANY sort of processing? Why are you trying to do this anyway, whatever you are spending is surely a waste of money?
Have you tried this on a digital HDTV?

Yes, you are correct - compressed 480i DIRECTV is not going to look good being converted to 480p no matter what. That would be the problem. ?

The reason I'm going through this is because I'm poor and cant afford HD service or an LCD HDTV. I can however watch OTA HD channels for free, as well as affordable Blue Ray and also the 1080i feed from my tablet via mini HDMI to regular HDMI cord.

The problem is the DIRECTV SD service. It looks great on a regular SDTV that can display plain 480i. When I found a CRT tube HDTV, I got excited thinking it would be the perfect solution to be able to watch DIRECTV SD on one input, and OTA HD channels on another input. Wrong. The DIRECTV SD looks worse than on the regular SDTV. I thought perhaps the CRT HDTV would be able to display in 480i and HD because it's CRT tube TV.

I cant afford HD service. So what do I do? Buy a cheap LCD HDTV and set it on top of the SDTV so I can watch DIRECTV SD and OTA HD for it all to look the best it can?

 

[JohnHammock]

I cant justify spending money on an HDTV when I already have hundreds of channels on the regular SD service, and stacking two TV's would be dumb and silly and not look right. This livingroom's not a teenager's bedroom. I just thought a CRT HDTV would be the solution so I could also watch OTA HD and local channels I dont get on DIRECTV, but it's not worth it to forfeit the picture quality of 90% of all TV I watch all those DIRECTV SD channels I get.

If anyone knows of an HDTV that can also display in plain 480i, or some way to make that possible, please let me know!

 

[texasbrit]

I don't think there is such a thing. The "native resolution" of most (all?) CRT HDTVs is 1080i. So if you feed it a 480i signal, it is always converted.

 

[JohnHammock]

Errrr. So we can send someone to the moon and clone humans but we can't make a TV that is able to display HD and 480i?? I refuse to accept this! There must be another way!

 

[bruin95]

Errrr. So we can send someone to the moon and clone humans but we can't make a TV that is able to display HD and 480i?? I refuse to accept this! There must be another way!

There is. Make more money.

 

[texasbrit]

Errrr. So we can send someone to the moon and clone humans but we can't make a TV that is able to display HD and 480i?? I refuse to accept this! There must be another way!

These TVs do display HD and 480i, you just don't like the way the picture looks. All the digital HDTVs display 480i and HD, you just might not like the SD picture. And you must be the only person in the world asking for something different.

 

[robjlevin]

Errrr. So we can send someone to the moon and clone humans but we can't make a TV that is able to display HD and 480i?? I refuse to accept this! There must be another way!

There most certainly does not have to be. I'm afraid you're going to have to live with it or suck it up and pay the $10/month. In fact, why not call DTV and see what they can do for you?

If you've been paying your bill on time and have been a customer for many years they may just be able to help you out with the HD service.

 

[texasbrit]

I'm not sure it's technically possible (within reasonable price constraints) to make a 1080i CRT actually display 480i. The size of the spot is wrong, the distance between scan lines is wrong etc etc And unless I am mistaken, the problem the OP is seeing is NOT that 480i is displayed as 480p. It's that 480i is displayed as 1080i.

 

[JohnHammock]

I'm not sure it's technically possible (within reasonable price constraints) to make a 1080i CRT actually display 480i. The size of the spot is wrong, the distance between scan lines is wrong etc etc And unless I am mistaken, the problem the OP is seeing is NOT that 480i is displayed as 480p. It's that 480i is displayed as 1080i.

Thank you, texasbrit. I don't know much about TV's, so I'm not sure if the two CRT HDTV's native resolution is 480p or 1080i. Over the inputs reads "480i/480p/720p/1080i". I'm assuming this is just indicating which resolutions the TV is able to receive? From what I've read, if you feed it 480i, it will automatically deinterlace the 480i into p, but then I don't know if it's upconverting that to 1080i or not.

It's interesting what everyone thinks the picture quality problem is, because I know what the root problem is. Before the TV does any converting, theDIRECTV SDsignal is compressed. People in a satellite "club" should know that. The problem's not SD or 480i. I would love to be able to watchDIRECTV SDin plain 480i on the CRT HDTVthe way the CRT SDTV displays it, as I know you understand.

Here's a big point: I would even be fine watching SD 480i material on an HDTVthat converts it if it just looked at least as good as say half the OTA channels which are SD 480i and then converted - that looks good enough for me. But the DIRECTV SDservice doesn't even look that good, because as you know, it's compressed. DIRECTV should admit that.

And that's why I'm looking for an HDTVthat can actually display in 480i, so I could watch DIRECTV SDservice and it look good enough, and be able to watch free OTA HD channels and hook my tablet to it via HDMI. That would be the best of both worlds and the least expensive way to go. If I would be happy with the picture quality of DIRECTV SDin plain 480i (or converted higher if it wasn't compressed) and the simple OTA channels and that's enough for me, then why pay more money for something I wouldn't necessarily need, ya know? What's wrong with saving money? Every dollar counts and I am accountable to my higher power to be a good steward of every penny - nothing unnecessarily wasted.

But you're telling me it's physically impossible for an HDTVto display in 480i. So, I wonder if there's anything I can do about the compressed satellite signal. And even apart from the money issue now, I'm just curious for the sake of intellectual innovation and creativity if there would be some kind of way to create a TV that could actually display 480i and HD. I think it's an interesting challenge.

 

[texasbrit]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that DirecTV is doing something they don't want to admit to. All satellite signals are compressed, in fact all TV signals are compressed because otherwise there would not be enough bandwidth to accommodate all the TV channels. There's no "admission" required from DirecTV. And everyone in the satellite "club", or the cable "club", knows that, it isn't a secret. Degrees of compression vary channel to channel, but even the OTA HD channels are compressed, it's just the degree of compression is less. On my two samsung HDTVs, 40in, most of the channels are quite watchable in SD with the exception of ESPN. I know in some cities the locals are very compressed but the DFW ones are not too bad. There's nothing you can do about the compression, it's done before the signal even goes to the satellite.
For a TV to have two different "native" resolutions, say 480i and 1080i, it would need a good piece of the electronics to be duplicated, if indeed it could be done at all. You would need a special CRT, capable of operating with two different "spot" sizes, and two different sets of deflection circuits. Not cheap. And, as I said, why would anyone bother? Except maybe in the past there has been some strange military project....?
And SD is dying out, pretty soon there won't be any.....

 

[JohnHammock]

Well DIRECTV signal is too compressed in my opinion. I mean I don't actually know if DIRECTV is just cutting corners for cost or if it's actually absolutely necessary to do, but their SD service doesn't even look as good as OTA SD.

Well if anyone knows of a special TV like texasbrit mentioned please let me know. ?

If I recall correctly, I thought I remember someone talking about going into the service menu of a TV and tweeking the geometry or something like that to make it display 480i, but I could be wrong. I guess it's impossible.