Need guidance for new FTA satellite install and roof antenna for local channels

[lordmoosh]

Hello all,

I live in Pennsylvania near Philadelphia. I am looking to install a FTA satellite dish to watch Farsi channels such as Ariana Television Network. I also want to install a regular roof antenna to watch local channels like ABC/NBC etc. I am researching the best way to design and wire the dish and antenna. One side of my house is blocked by trees so I believe I need to install the satellite and antenna on the other side of the house. I plan to install them both on the top of the roof to have the best chance of a clear sight to the satellite. I want to use a dual output LNB on the satellite in case I need to setup another receiver in the future. For now I plan to only setup one receiver. The roof antenna will go to 2 TVs for now. I have already run 3 quad shielded coaxial wires from my basement up near the attic. I plan to use 2 of the coaxial lines for the satellite and 1 for the roof antenna. I plan to install a media wiring enclosure like the ones Leviton sells to house all of my connections in the future. I plan to use a single grounding block to ground both the satellite and the roof antenna to the grounding rod used by the house's electrical panel. I plan to use #10 copper wire with a green jacket for ground. Here are my questions:

1) The side of the house that has a clearer line of sight is on the opposite side from where the grounding rod is. Are grounds for satellites and roof antenna's allowed to go through the house to get to the grounding rod or must they be outside all the way to the grounding rod? I could send it through the attic and through a gable vent down a wall to the grounding rod or I could send it through the conduit I have from my attic to the basement and then send it to the ground rod.

2) If I should not send the ground through the house can I somehow staple it on the shingles all the way to the other side of the house, down the wall to the grounding rod?

3) Does the ground wire need to be protected by some sort of conduit?

4) What type of wiring clamp would I need to use to attach a ground wire to the grounding rod?

5) Can I have a ground wire from the satellite and antenna go to the grounding block and then a single ground wire from the grounding block to the grounding rod?

6) I have read about diplexers and so forth which allow you to use one coaxial cable to be used to send both satellite and antenna signal over the same wire. I would install one in the media wiring enclosure and then another behind the satellite receiver/TV. Would a non powered diplexer give me a good signal? There is only one tv at the moment that needs satellite so its only that TV that requires these additional devices.

I have more questions but I will save them for a follow up. Thank you.

 

[Anole]

I'm not going to address your questions.
We have plenty of members who will.
There are several other matters equally important.

The web site, TVfool.com will help you with OTA reception.
Elevation, terrain, direction, signal level, etc.
I suspect a moderate gain, beam antenna might do.
Try to avoid amplifiers if you can get enough signal without.

Which satellite are you aiming at?
Could you see that satellite from a chest-height dish anywhere on your property?
(wall, yard, patio, even 2nd story balcony)
There are many satellite dish aiming web sites and I'll let others recommend.
(I use a program on my computer)
- hate to see anyone working on a dish that high
- sweeping the snow off in winter much easier down low

Have you picked a dish, LNBF, and receiver, yet.?

 

[AcWxRadar]

Lordmoosh,

I am not up on the NEC regs regarding how to route the ground cable, but logic tells me that It should be the shortest distance possible and NOT enter the structure at all. Personally, I would not even want it to be routed across a roof or beneath an eave for very many feet, the least possible distance, the better. I would be tempted to install a separate ground rod at the nearest point to the antenna / dish location. If you've ever seen lightning strike a home or a barn or a tree, you would know why I state this, regardless of what the NEC code might state. That should cover your topics 1 and 2.

#3 I don't believe that a conduit is required, but you had better check the NEC and local regs on that. I think the local library will have a copy of the NEC book, then you can check with a local electrician or inspector to determine of there are more stringent local codes to be adhered to.

#4 You can get one from Menards or Lowes or other hardware shop. They are just a brass/copper/bronze clamp that bolts onto the ground rod and has a terminal clamp for the grounding wires.
Tell a clerk in the electrical area what you want and they'll know what you need and point you to it.

#5 I believe so, don't see why they would need to be separate. Again, best to doublecheck the NEC code book, but I don't believe that there is any rule against it.

#6 I know that such "splitters" or "diplexers" exist, but I don't know if they are compatible with FTA receivers. I know that DN has such devices called "separators" (I think I am recalling that terminology properly) but they won't work with FTA equipment.

RADAR

 

[northgeorgia]

I'll chime in with just a bit of advice. I know others will give much more -- but I'm half asleep and on my way to bed right now

97W on Ku-band is your best bet for FTA Farsi programming. There's a misconception that a satellite dish has to be mounted on a rooftop (over the air antennas usually require some height to get the best terrestrial signals, but this doesn't apply to satellite signals). It's SO much easier to have your dish near ground level if possible

I'd recommend going to http://www.dishpointer.com and typing in your address. That will at least give you an idea of a good location for the dish.

 

[lordmoosh]

Thanks for all of your answers. I understand that satellites can be placed lower but there are a lot of trees in my area. I will look at placing it on the side of my house instead of on the roof but the side where the grounding rod is has 3 large trees in the way right next to my house. The picture shows a line from my house towards the trees that are in the way. I have attached a picture. I looked at the dishpointer and it said this:

Name: 97W GALAXY 19 (G-19)
Distance: 37889km
Elevation: 38.6°
Azimuth (true): 211.7°
Azimuth (magn.): 223.7°
LNB Skew [?]: 23.7°

d = 163.8ft
h = 131.0ft


Max Height of Obstacle


Move the marker to find out the maximum height an obstacle can have without blocking the line of sight.


d = the distance to the obstacle (e.g. a tree)
h = the maximum height of obstacle measured from the base of the dish.


Tip: A residential floor height is about 2.75m (9ft), an office floor height about 3.25m (11ft)


Please let me know what you think.

 

[SatelliteAV]

My additional 2 cents to the excellent advise already given.

Diplexers should only be used if there is absolutely no other option. Diplexers decrease the signal strength of both the satellite and especially weaker over the air signals. At my previous home, would lose 9 of the 50+ local channels when using diplexers.

If your home has either metal cold water pipes or conduit grounded the the electrical service panel, the ground may be attached to these. Agreed to keep the ground wire as short as possible on the exterior of the home. The ground must be bonded to the home's ground and never drive a separate ground rod that isn't bonded to the main ground.

 

[polgyver]

Satellite 97 W co-ordinates for Philadelphia are (approximately): azimuth: 212 (32 degree West from due South), elevation : 38.6 degrees. If weather permits (no heavy clouds), the Sun will be tomorrow (January 9) on azimuth 212 at 14.17 (seventeen minutes after 2 PM), however, Sun's elevation will be only 21 degree ... you would have to imagine the satellite 18 degrees higher than the Sun. But, a few days later, on Jan. 14, the Moon will be very close to the satellite position, at 16.23 (twenty three minutes after 4 PM). This can help you find the place for the dish, and the advice of Northgeorgia is a good one: try to fasten the dish on a side wall of the house, avoid roof.

 

[lordmoosh]

Thanks I will try to check for the sun at 2:17PM tomorrow.

As for the equipment I was planning on purchasing these things from sadoun:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...-1&keyword=antenna&storeId=10051#.UO0AWG9QWE0
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Winegard/Winegard-Dish-30-DS-2076-Antenna.htm
http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/S/KUL2-Sadoun-Standard-Dual-LNBF.htm
Perfect Vision PVGBQHFA Grounding Block (4) splice block.
?http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Accessories/Meters/SF95LK-DSS-Satellite-Signal-meter-Kit.htm

I would get the grounding wire and clamp from Home Depot. I already have good quality quad shield coaxial cable from monoprice.com

1) Are the above good picks? Am I missing anything?
2) Does anyone know if there is an HD satellite receiver that also has a regular digital HD tuner built in? My flat panel TV was made before they started requiring HD tuners to be builtin the TVs so its like a giant computer monitor.
3) If I ground to a water pipe inside of the house isn't that the same as having the satellite/antenna grounded to a wire that goes through my house?

 

[Anole]

The OTA antenna is probably good.
But why guess - consult the site I listed above.

The dish will probably get the job done.
But when people are spending money to buy a dish, i always recommend going for 36".
If some day in the future, you decide to motorize...
...or just want to re-aim at other satellites, your butt is covered.
Of course, if you were recycling an old dish, use whatever works.

You know, if the antenna and dish are well below your roof, there's not really much chance of lightning strike.


edit: on the question of FTA receivers with built-in OTA HD receivers...
I think you are out of luck.
Some members have-built or are-building HTPCs with OTA + FTA tuners.
That may be more ambitious than what you had in mind, but is the only satisfactory solution I know.
Look to recent threads for more info.

 

[Bongu]

For that LNBF, I would not recommend the Winegard 76cm dish. It might work fine for you pointing only at 97w, but it will suffer from rain fade. If you insist on the DS-2076, which is a good quality small dish, I would have to recommend a higher quality LNBF such as an Invacom QPH-031. I would recommend that you check out one of the site sponsors SatelliteAV(link is at the top of your screen) for a decent size dish(at a decent price) and decent quality dual LNBF. I have bought several LNBFs from there and the pricing is competitive. The dishes from SatelliteAV are top quality if you have done your research.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Here is a brief clip from a google search regarding grounding. It isn't fully in depth, but it is a very good start.

http://ecmweb.com/qampa/code-quandaries-7

RADAR

 

[lordmoosh]

It was cloudy today so I was not able to see the sun. I checked out SatelliteAV but they do not seem to even sell the Invacom QPH-031.

Would this be a good kit to get instead of what I mentioned above? http://www.satelliteav.com/p/shop/?ws_pid=1611&ws_cat=413

It comes with a single LNB though. Let me know if you have any recommendations on any specific items to buy.

 

[lordmoosh]

Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny, will the sun be near the satellite around 2:17PM again?

 

[polgyver]

Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny, will the sun be near the satellite around 2:17PM again?

Yes, you can confirm it going to this site http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php just fill in Philadelphia, choose Pennsylvania, and try different days. The Sun will be on this azimuth quite a few days, and its elevation will go up every day by 0.2 degree. You can also ask the program for Moon data ... but, instead for waiting for the Moon to show you position of satellite 97, you could make yourself any simple "aimer" with, say, drinking straw and level, set it up for angle of 38 to 39 degree, and eyeball with it from your chosen dish location, to make sure your Line Of Sight would clear these pesky trees. Cheers, and good luck. polgyver

 

[Anole]

Would this be a good kit to get instead of what I mentioned above? http://www.satelliteav.com/p/shop/?ws_pid=1611&ws_cat=413
It comes with a single LNB though.
Let me know if you have any recommendations on any specific items to buy.

I can't think of a better receiver. You are set for the future.
Excellent dish. I always recommend 36" for beginners. Won't outgrow it.
The PLL LNBF gets highest marks. If/when you need two outputs, we'll talk.
(or ask Brian of SatAV ahead of time - he might recommend SL2)

 

[lordmoosh]

Thanks. I looked up my local digital channels on tvfool.com and all the channels I'm interested in are around 8.5 miles away from my house. Their color is green:

Green​

An indoor "set-top" antenna is probably sufficient to pick up these channels ​

I'd like to put a good enough antenna on the side of my house where my grounding rod enters the house. That side has trees that are 2-3 stories high. I live in a 2 story high house. What type of antenna would you recommend for this situation?

 

[AcWxRadar]

Lordmoosh,

To be very honest, I think those little indoor "hot-plate" looking digital OTA antennas like an RCA model that you can pick up at Walmart do a pretty decent job. I decided to try one on for size a while back and I was actually very impressed with what I could get. I picked up all my local channels which emanated from towers about 35 - 45 miles away. If I dabbled a bit more with the positioning of this antenna, I could manage to pull in one signal (two or three channels from the same broadcaster) which was 75 miles away! That was all without using the in-line amplifier that came with the antenna and the whole kit was something like $28. So, you might ponder picking one of these up just to amuse yourself and check the waters. At that price, you cannot shirk at these indoor antennas.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

I was also analyzing your attached picture from dishpointer.

The layout of your house and the neighbors buildings and the trees really do limit your placement of a satellite dish. I really cannot see many options for a ground based dish. I am not saying that it would be impossible, but it might really be cutting the LOS thin for even just one fixed point satellite. It is totally apparent that a motorized dish would never work from the ground in your yard. Atop your home's roof looks to me to indeed be the best option for you. However, I also think that you could put the dish on either end peak of the house and be fine, that would help you out with the grounding concerns. I think you will be able to shoot over the big trees if you wanted to place the dish on that end of the house. I am not sure if you could put it down near the eave and still manage a good LOS or not, probably best up near the peak. I would really have to look at it from your rooftop in person to get a better picture of it in my mind. But, you can do this yourself by using the sun's alignment.

If your area is not prone to extreme winds, then it wouldn't matter if it were up near the peak vs down by the eaves anyway. Probably a little safer working along the ridgeline peak, in my way of thinking.
I am afraid of heights, so the further away I can stay from the edge, the better. But, judging from the satellite photo of your rooftop, it doesn't appear that your roof is very steep.

I would install a NPRM (Non-Penetrating Roof Mount) with a mat underneath, along the ridgeline. One that angles over both sides of the ridgeline.

I guarantee that it will still be a pain to set up a dish for the first time up there. Especially if you go with a motorized dish in the future. You might consider setting your system up at ground level at a friend's or neighbor's place close to you, but where they have a wide open field or at least no trees and no buildings to obstruct the LOS. You could spend all the time you need to get the dish elevation and LNBF settings perfected without going up and down from your roof. As long as you start with a perfectly level mast, you can lock down all your adjustments and take the whole assembly up on your roof and install it on a perfectly level mast up there and then be off and running in a matter of minutes! The only thing you would have to do would be to swing the dish back and forth until you found your proper azimuth. Especially with a motorized system, I urge you to do this. It would be a pain to haul the whole assembly up onto your roof without banging it around and you probably won't be able to scale a ladder with it in tow, but you could get everything set - angle wise, and dismantle just enough of it that you could hoist it up with a rope and reassemble it on the roof. You'd be a lot further ahead.

HTH

RADAR

 

[lordmoosh]

Thanks for the detailed response, it is quite helpful. I am attaching a picture from my deck. I think this is the only place that I can easily mount the dish without having it blocked by a tree. I have not had a chance to checkout the sun at 2:17PM yet but I am estimating that in this direction is where I will need to point the dish based on what the picture of my house and the line pointing to the satellite. Do you think it could work if I put the satellite near the edge of the deck roof?

 

[FaT Air]

Looks maybe 'nip and tuck'. A straw and an angle finder. Set to your needed elevation, peer thru the straw or along the angle finder itself, and look for obstructions 10 to 15° either side of proposed 'line'. Leeway because of azimuth inaccuracies and 'trees do grow up and sway in the wind.
Techy alternative: Dishpointer app?