And this is what the BD brain washing machine can do. You guys will never stop the war until you act older than a 19 year old.
Seems I've been banned from the Blu-Ray forum here at SatelliteGuys
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Player: If the PS3 is claimed to break even atm (and if you believe Joe is making a sh!tload of money for a while already) for $399,
what do you think it costs to manufacture a player that has only one expensive component from the PS3 in it - the BD drive.
You might add the SoC that is quite expensive, between $20 and $40 according to kjack. The rest are pennies.
Media: If you believe that HD discs were not cheaper to manufacture (by at least an order of magnitude around the time BD was
launched) then I'm amazed by one thing only: the efficiency of the BD brainwashing machine...
The Player: The playstation3? that is a game system, they historically loose money. You make it seem as the Playstation is the only Blu-Ray player available. There are many manufacturers building Blu-Ray, unlike HD-DVD which had only one manufacturer, I believe due to the cost cutting in a desperate bid to gain market share. I have a feeling even if Sony did not include Blu-Ray in the Playstation3 they would still be loosing money per unit, technically the Playstation3 is an amazing machine. So trying to compare HD-DVD stand alone player costs to that of the Playstation3 is just a ridicules argument.
Media: All new technology costs more in startup, I would guess that when DVD came on line the costs were high in the beginning. Besides ever since the war started there has never been a great disparity in media prices to the consumer. I will wager a guess that the studios are not loosing a penny on the blu-ray disks, their profit margin may be less but I seriously doubt they are losing money.
what do you think it costs to manufacture a player that has only one expensive component from the PS3 in it - the BD drive.
You might add the SoC that is quite expensive, between $20 and $40 according to kjack. The rest are pennies.
Media: If you believe that HD discs were not cheaper to manufacture (by at least an order of magnitude around the time BD was
launched) then I'm amazed by one thing only: the efficiency of the BD brainwashing machine...
The Player: The playstation3? that is a game system, they historically loose money. You make it seem as the Playstation is the only Blu-Ray player available. There are many manufacturers building Blu-Ray, unlike HD-DVD which had only one manufacturer, I believe due to the cost cutting in a desperate bid to gain market share. I have a feeling even if Sony did not include Blu-Ray in the Playstation3 they would still be loosing money per unit, technically the Playstation3 is an amazing machine. So trying to compare HD-DVD stand alone player costs to that of the Playstation3 is just a ridicules argument.
Media: All new technology costs more in startup, I would guess that when DVD came on line the costs were high in the beginning. Besides ever since the war started there has never been a great disparity in media prices to the consumer. I will wager a guess that the studios are not loosing a penny on the blu-ray disks, their profit margin may be less but I seriously doubt they are losing money.
Was my post really that hard to understand? OK, I'll try in bulleted form:
- you claim BD as new technology is expensive and should cost a lot
- I claim that expensive is a relative term and what BD costs today - and not my argument - is ridiculos.
Not much is known about the price of the players.
Please note, I don't refer to Toshiba statement made some ~9 months ago about breaking even with $150 entry level players.
I fully understand that for a bluboy what Sony says is gospel, what Toshiba says is FUD.
OK, let say Sony is right and $399 PS3 is the breakeven point.
I don't give a f*ck how good of a BD player the PS3 is or what a marvel of technology it is - I use it only because we have some financials about it.
PS3 is more expensive to manufacture than other BD players, can we agree on that?
Let's say the drive and Cell CPU are 2 components that define PS3 price. A BD player has only the drive, hence should be breaking even around $199.
With me so far? I believe it doesn't cost them more than half that much, but let's stick to the numbers.
If there were competition, if BDA would be thinking not only about raping early adopters - we would see players on sale for around $200 (again, pessimistically speaking). We don't.
To summarize: BD players are expensive, i.e. more expensive than $50 DVD players. But claiming $400 as an entry point is a blessing for consumers when
the breakeven point is less than half that much is taking it too far...
Was it clearer this time?
Disc vs. tape? The disc was at least 3 times cheaper...
That's why DVD was such a success: it was dramatically better quality, it was cheaper to manufacture, it did not require new TV, receiver, speakers, and no "Please rewind"...
When "Matador" sells some 5,000 copies in hidef, how much do you think the studio made on it?
Diogen.
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Wow, and here I thought the war zones most contentious days were behind it......
Bob "I still miss my combo discs" Murdoch
P.S. Fire sales still abound - got 8 HD DVDs for $60 yesterday online...
Bob "I still miss my combo discs" Murdoch
P.S. Fire sales still abound - got 8 HD DVDs for $60 yesterday online...
They are.
It's just that some bluboys can't simply enjoy what the format is offering in the form of audio/video goodness,
they want the feeling - and consensus - that what they did/do/will pay for this goodness is as good as it possibly could be.
Yeah, right...
Same here: paying for HD movies less than BD blanks cost.
When looking over the difference between HD and BD movie prices, the last dozen or so movies saved me enough to get
a hard drive to store them on and watch without this AACS garbage using any player on any TV over the network...
Diogen.
I'm sorry I started this thread, I shoulda just accepted my banning and left. hehe
Diogen, I would like to shoot a few holes in your cost theory -- if you will allow --
First, Sony not only owns movie studios (that is more then one for those that are counting) but they also own multiple gaming studios (once again, more then one for those that are counting). Sony leveraged the cost of the PS3 against their movie and gaming studios. So a big movie or game ends up being put on BD and the PS3 gets Sony a nice cut to help leverage the loss on PS3 sales during its first two years out. So much so that now they are making money on PS3 sales.
Toshiba on the other hand did not have any thing to leverage their HD-DVD players with. They readily admited as early as Thanksgiving of '06 that they might have to drop prices to maintain their sales lead against BD when the PS3 was introduced. At that point they started losing money on every HD-DVD player sold and had no movie studio to help offset the loss. Hence when Toshiba finally pulled the plug they announced a $900 million dollar loss.
If Toshiba had not of pushed the prices to back door levels and kept the prices at a level where a profit -- even a small one-- could be made I believe other CE manufacturers would of jumped ship (many were looking hard, Samsung, LG and others). Toshiba would not of moved as many players as fast as they did but there would of been more players on the HD-DVD side and they would still be in the game and making money. In addtion, I keep reading (mainly from you Diogen and Vurbano), that the cost of pressing HD-DVD and formating was alot less then BD. It that was the case then Toshiba should of chose to lose money on the movies (which they would not of if the cost to produce was really that low) and they would have easily displaced BD in disc sales.
Bottom line is that nobody made money on HD-DVD and if nobody is making money -- who is going to sell the product? Retailers were not really making money because HD-DVD was taking up valuable frontage with low returns. This whole deal was done in for Toshiba by simple economics. They consistantly made the wrong choice time and time again -- while the BDA just stayed the course. You guys keep yelling about profit taking? In case you are not in business -- that is why someone goes into business -- to make a profit -- and as much profit as possible.
Maybe by Xmas of '09 BD players will be under the $200 range and movies will be down to a respectable $24.99 in the stores (already there in Walmart -- most titles are already at $24.99 with only new release at $29.99). Even with that there will be naysayers about the format -- which is okay. I am really enjoying my BD movies and I am sure there are many more consumers like me who are enjoying theirs. Sorry there are those of you who don't feel that way but that is okay too.
First, Sony not only owns movie studios (that is more then one for those that are counting) but they also own multiple gaming studios (once again, more then one for those that are counting). Sony leveraged the cost of the PS3 against their movie and gaming studios. So a big movie or game ends up being put on BD and the PS3 gets Sony a nice cut to help leverage the loss on PS3 sales during its first two years out. So much so that now they are making money on PS3 sales.
Toshiba on the other hand did not have any thing to leverage their HD-DVD players with. They readily admited as early as Thanksgiving of '06 that they might have to drop prices to maintain their sales lead against BD when the PS3 was introduced. At that point they started losing money on every HD-DVD player sold and had no movie studio to help offset the loss. Hence when Toshiba finally pulled the plug they announced a $900 million dollar loss.
If Toshiba had not of pushed the prices to back door levels and kept the prices at a level where a profit -- even a small one-- could be made I believe other CE manufacturers would of jumped ship (many were looking hard, Samsung, LG and others). Toshiba would not of moved as many players as fast as they did but there would of been more players on the HD-DVD side and they would still be in the game and making money. In addtion, I keep reading (mainly from you Diogen and Vurbano), that the cost of pressing HD-DVD and formating was alot less then BD. It that was the case then Toshiba should of chose to lose money on the movies (which they would not of if the cost to produce was really that low) and they would have easily displaced BD in disc sales.
Bottom line is that nobody made money on HD-DVD and if nobody is making money -- who is going to sell the product? Retailers were not really making money because HD-DVD was taking up valuable frontage with low returns. This whole deal was done in for Toshiba by simple economics. They consistantly made the wrong choice time and time again -- while the BDA just stayed the course. You guys keep yelling about profit taking? In case you are not in business -- that is why someone goes into business -- to make a profit -- and as much profit as possible.
Maybe by Xmas of '09 BD players will be under the $200 range and movies will be down to a respectable $24.99 in the stores (already there in Walmart -- most titles are already at $24.99 with only new release at $29.99). Even with that there will be naysayers about the format -- which is okay. I am really enjoying my BD movies and I am sure there are many more consumers like me who are enjoying theirs. Sorry there are those of you who don't feel that way but that is okay too.
Geez...
Why do you assume your readers are complete dumb asses, Joe?
The bolded conclusion does not follow out of your statements above.
You know it. I know it. WTF? How long can this stupidity go on?
And? Did I question this?
Again... WTF? How do you know?
Instead of recommending Vurbano to look in the mirror, do it yourself. Toshiba is not a studio...
I had enough of you for a week...
Diogen.
I am going to close this thread as it has run WAY off topic and now has gotten into personal attacks...the Ops point was mad and everything was worked out.
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