Yagi vs Bowtie and other OTA Questions

[AlaJoe]

1)What will offer better performance a Yagi style or Bowtie style antenna and what would be the criteria for choosing one style over the other. I have done a ton of reading on antennas over the last two days and was set to buy a CM 4228 bowtie but then I read the post by Intrepid about Wind issues and now I am second guessing the CM 4228 and thinking of a WineGard PR 9032 Yagi instead as I had the wind issue discussed in that thread just yesterday with my Winegard Squareshooter which I have decided is a piece of junk.

2)Why would I get the results I am with the Squareshooter? Here is Antennawebs info for my house. At the far right I have added the results I am getting. Why would the lower frequency channels all come in great put the higher ones not? I can say I know the mileage is wrong because I know where the transmit towers are and they are all within a mile of each other about 22 miles from my house. Today being a nonwindy clear day everything is coming in good however being that Birmingham Alabama is not even scheduled for HD on the satelite this year I realize I am going to have to live with this for a while so I want reliability. Basically I do not want the locals dropping off unless the weather is so bad I loose the satelite also.

Please give me your suggestions on what I should do.

 

[jcrandall]

Those bowtie anteannas work great. 15 miles is not far enough to need a yagi.

The squareshooter sucks, it is that simple. It is an omni-directional antenna, and your results will simply depend on how it is mounted and the way it faces. Before replacing it, try turning it. Only 15 miles away you may be able to use just this if you get it angled right. Omni-directional antennas work fair when positioned right, but still get weak signals for about 30% of the directions based on how it faces.

 

[Rick0725]

53 is going to ch 10
52 is going to ch 13

The cm4228 is the only uhf antenna that will receive ch 9-13 when they change over in 2009. The cm 4228 is a great uhf antenna but it runs into problems in some cases. I have not had good luck with them in my area because of the hilly terrain for example. The cm9032 is ok but it will not receive ch 10 and 13 moving forward.

If you are concerned with the reception with the cm4228, the winegard hd7082p or hd7084p (better) will fill the bill for ya. They handle multipath rather well. Add a winegard hdp 269 preamp for cable run and to boost output on the higher channels. The hdp 269 was designed to work along with the square shooter...you can give it a try and play with positioning as explained above.

Installed a HD7082P at the parent's last week. Tried the cm 4228 there but had problems with reception similar to yours. see picture. The antenna replaced a multidirectional that directv installed.

ch 50, 52 and 53 may be transmitting at lower power than the rest and there may be some signal loss in the cable run at the higher frequency.

Using rg6 ... with how long of a cable run ...how many times split?

 

[dodge]

Antenna at parents House

Rick
what no HD8200p at the folks, skimping on them arent you???

 

[Rick0725]

Dodge

They are only 8 miles from the towers.

My mom wanted the hd7080p and was concerned with the curb appeal. My dad told her to get a grip... "its just an antenna and I dont give a crap about the neighbors"...if I may guote him.

I installed the hd7082p and she had a fit. She counted the elements from the spec at Winegard and said it was not the 7080p ...paced up and down the street for an hour...drove me nuts...told me to take it down.

I would have installed the 8200p but could not get the distant channels because the signals were blocked by the hills on all sides of her.

 

[dougruss]

"its just an antenna and I dont give a crap about the neighbors"...if I may guote him.

Now that's what I like to hear !!

You would think the neighbors would have better things to do ,but looking at the sky all the time?

 

[ralfyguy]

I installed a CM3020, but only the front UHF part. The back VHF part wasn't needed as all my stations are UHF. Would I get a better receiption if I had installed the whole thing? I mean the VHF part of the antenna doesn't really help with the UHF receiption right?

 

[Rick0725]

ralfyguy

you can try doing that. I never had good luck with that line of cm antennas. They did not perform well.

An alternative may be to replace that piece and replace it with the cm4228 if you want uhf only. It is not that expensive.

 

[AlaJoe]

53 is going to ch 10
52 is going to ch 13

The cm4228 is the only uhf antenna that will receive ch 9-13 when they change over in 2009. The cm 4228 is a great uhf antenna but it runs into problems in some cases. I have not had good luck with them in my area because of the hilly terrain for example. The cm9032 is ok but it will not receive ch 10 and 13 moving forward.


Using rg6 ... with how long of a cable run ...how many times split?

Can you elaborate on what you mean here..... 53 is going to ch 10, 52 is going to ch 13?

I do not have but maybe 50 feet of wire and it is not split straight from the antenna to the 622.

 

[AlaJoe]

Those bowtie anteannas work great. 15 miles is not far enough to need a yagi.

The squareshooter sucks, it is that simple. It is an omni-directional antenna, and your results will simply depend on how it is mounted and the way it faces. Before replacing it, try turning it. Only 15 miles away you may be able to use just this if you get it angled right..

I do not understand. With your first statement you seem to imply Yagis are for greater distances but the milage rating for both of the antennas I referenced is the same, 60 miles, and they are smaller versions of Yagis and Bowties with shorter range rating lets look at two by Channel Master

1) CM 3021 Bowtie rated for 45 miles with an average gain of 10.2 for $24.99
2) CM 4248 Yagi rated for 45 miles with an average gain of 10.8 for $45.99

I go back to one of my original questions. Both of these antennas seems to rate out almost identical so why would you choose one over the other?

Also I have tried to point the Squareshooter everyway possible. I even mounted it on the end of a 12 foot 2x4 and clamped it in various locations and directions with little improvement.

 

[Rick0725]

53 is going to ch 10
52 is going to ch 13


The FCC is auctioning off UHF channels 52-69 after the analog to digital cut off in 2009. The stations in your area are transmitting temporarily on ch 52 and 53 and will go back to ch 10 and ch13 when they permanently turn off their analog transmitters.

The Channel Master 4228 has gain for VHF-high channels, especially channels 9-13. What makes it different then the other bowties is the screen that is continuous across all 8 bowties. Other 8-bays, like the Winegard PR-8800 and the Antennas Direct DB-8, have a reflector that is not continuous across the right and left halves, and thus they have no useful gain for VHF.

The CM 4248 Yagi or any other UHF antenna is not recommended in your case because 2 channels in your area are going to VHF down the road and they will not be able to receive them.

The CM 4228 is probably the best UHF antenna in the marketplace. But the CM 4228 may not perform to your liking in situations prone to multipath. The sign of mutipath is fluctuations up and down of signal levels which you had brought to our attention in your chart.

In your case the next step with the 2 stations moving to VHF in your area is to install a VHF/UHF combo style antenna. From my experience the Winegard HD7082P (minimum) and hd7084P (better) will work best handling the multipath at your distance (22 miles) from the towers and combination of channels in your area. I prefer the larger of the 2 mentioned antennas...My philosophy is that it better to have too much signal than not enough. But that decision would be up to you.

The picture I posted was the HD7082P installed 9 miles from the towers (the customer wanted the hd7080P but the hd7082P worked better there for their multipath situation).

If you split the signal in the home and get some loss of signal, add the Winegard HDP 269 preamp (in place of a distribution amp). This preamp was designed for the suburban setting and will not overload your equipment.

The HDP 269 has 12 Db of gain, very high overload tolerance (350,000 mv. which is 3 times more than the other high overload preamps), and 3 db noise. This can be a better alternative where you would have used a distribution amp to improve the signal for long cable runs in your home.

Here is why...

-you are amplifying the signal at the antenna, not down the line thereby amplifying the signal closer to the source as opposed to after the signal gets a chance to get noisy at the distribution amp in the house.

-the gain is not much more than a standard in home distribution amp...12 db -vs 8 db which is typical.

-the preamp is only 3 db noise -vs.- 6db more typical of distribution amps

-is more tolerant to overload because of its design (350,000 mv vs 85000 mv typical of other high tolerant preamps).

-has an internal FM trap to attenuate FM stations that can overload the signal.

-designed to not overload your ota receiver

I am very happy with the results and wanted to share this alternative with you if you are interested.

hope this helps to clarify the situation.

Rick

 

[ralfyguy]

I installed a CM3020, but only the front UHF part. The back VHF part wasn't needed as all my stations are UHF. Would I get a better receiption if I had installed the whole thing? I mean the VHF part of the antenna doesn't really help with the UHF receiption right?

ralfyguy

you can try doing that. I never had good luck with that line of cm antennas. They did not perform well.

An alternative may be to replace that piece and replace it with the cm4228 if you want uhf only. It is not that expensive.

Well, my problem is that I am 75+ miles away from any towers, and I don't know how to gain any more signal. In the daytime some channels are barely strong enough to get a picture, some are cutting out. Closer to sunset, the reception gets better. The Cm7775 is a tad better than the RS amp, but it didn't solve the problem. I think it's just too far away.

 

[Jim5506]

I installed a CM3020, but only the front UHF part. The back VHF part wasn't needed as all my stations are UHF. Would I get a better receiption if I had installed the whole thing? I mean the VHF part of the antenna doesn't really help with the UHF receiption right?

Antennas are designed by their manufacturer as a complete unit. Using only a part of an antenna very well could degrade the performance of that part compared to using the entire antenna. There may be harmonic consequences for omitting the VHF portion of a VHF/UHF antenna.

I'd use the whole thing and see if performance improves.

Alternatively, a UHF only antenna such as the 4228 has better signal gathering ability in deep fringe area such as yours. The CM3020 is not rated by CM as working as well in deep fringe as the 4228.

Deep fringe yagis might also work, but they have a smaller gathering area and are more suseptible to signal fade and variance, whereas the 4228 is more susceptible to multi-path (probably not a consideration if you're 75 miles from the transmitters).

 

[ralfyguy]

Well I put the WHOLE 3020 together and on the roof....GUESS WHAT??
The performance was horrible! I lost ALL but one channel which was about the same strength as before. So I ripped it back down and put just the UHF front back up there and it was just as good as before, with still FOX23 missing. Who would have thought that?? I am SHOCKED!

 

[Rick0725]

well, the only other antenna I would try in your case is the cm4228.

the uhf section of the cm3020 has an average gain of about 9.5db vs 12db for the cm4228.

The other yagi's favor the higher channels and you are concerned with ch 22/23 fox.( Was looking at the fcc site. the fox channel may not be transmitting at full power yet).

you will not know if the cm4228 is better till you try though. The cm4228 will only set you back about $50-60 with ups frt..

have you thought about a satellite service to get fox hd

 

[ralfyguy]

well, the only other antenna I would try in your case is the cm4228.

the uhf section of the cm3020 has an average gain of about 9.5db vs 12db for the cm4228.

The other yagi's favor the higher channels and you are concerned with ch 22/23 fox.( Was looking at the fcc site. the fox channel may not be transmitting at full power yet).

you will not know if the cm4228 is better till you try though. The cm4228 will only set you back about $50-60 with ups frt..

have you thought about a satellite service to get fox hd

I got Dish HD Silver, but the Locals are in SD, HORRIBLY overcompressed. Sometimes the picture is so bad, that I get a headache from my eyes trying to focus on a picture that is out of focus, and my Olevia LCD TV has a brillant picture other than on Dish Locals. No setting on the TV makes them bearable to watch. There's no telling when my DMA get's HD Locals, if at all.
Also when there's a bad storm, like it happened before, and the Satellite service gets knocked out, I just keep on watching the OTA feed to stay up to date with the weather. It NEVER failed during a storm, believe it or not. In fact the worse the weather, the better my receiption.FOX23 is always there when it rains hard. Funny, EH?
Where do you get the CM4228 at that price?
And is the winegard R8800, which is a competition model to the 4228, any better?

 

[Rick0725]

cm4228 with a cm7775 or cm7777 amp would be the popular choice.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

$39.95 plus ups frt...I purchase them locally at a cm distributor at that price.

called on one early this week...they were on back order and due in stock shortly.

You may want to take the opportunity to reengineer your install....for shortest run of coax mounted as high as you can go. But not to high that the antenna sways in the wind.

rg11 may be a possibility to cut down on cable/signal losses...rg-11 has less loss per 100 feet. and can be purchased by the foot online with connectors attached. Just measure what you need and order accordingly.

http://www.atechfabrication.com/products/coaxial_cable.htm

keep in mind that the most atmosheric affects are between april and october. This site provides a forecast.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

here is some interesting reading for you if you are interested. use them to get suggestions how you may maximize results at your signal fringe location.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

the site below outlines some testing of various antenna combinations. check out their install with 2 blakes antennas side by side.

http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

 

[ralfyguy]

Thanks for all that effort man!
Will take me awhile to read.

:

 

[ralfyguy]

After reading some of it, I actually should be happy to get any channels at all. I am 75 miles from the towers. I have a bunch of huge trees surrounding me and especially in front of the antenna, at about 50 feet away. The antenna is on the roof, as high as I could go. There's alot of wind around here, so for multipath issues, the CM4228 is probably worse than the 3020, even with higher gain.
I can't move the antenna, its actually already pointing through a "hole in thr trees. I can't move the trees either, they aren't mine. Getting all educated by reading this interesting stuff, I am surprised having any usable reception at all.
I came to the conclusion, that the current setup is as good as it gets. I get all the channels but one, and I may just depend on FOX23 to increase the power, especially after analog shutdown. Because they transmit the analog signal at about 3,200KW right now, and he digital is supposed to be 1,000KW. It may not be at 1,000KW as of now. But maybe after the shutdown they might be allowed to increase that to the power of the analog broadcast, or at least closer to that, since the analog signal will not exist anymore. I am calling it quits, to try more, because I already have tried alot, and have achieved more actually, than the experts in all this articles I read predicted I could. I am not ladder proof and I habe fear of heights, and since I am deaf on my left ear, my sense of balance is screwed up. Means I have been up there countless times, and it stresses me out to be up there. I am happy, I haven't been hurt so far. I have a wife and son to feed. And the thought of getting hurt for that, and then not being able to work and provide for my family is just horrible. I appreciate all the input and help so much. Thank you guys, you are the greatest!
I still want you all to at least see my setup. Here's some pix:

 

[ralfyguy]

By the way: If you had your towers 75 miles away, and there's 2 of them about in the same spot. Means NBC and CBS is on one tower, and FOX and UPN is on the other. They are not even a mile apart. I've seen them in person, I been there. And the NBC and CBS stations are almost always good. And the FOX is the main one giving all the trouble and the UPN sometimes, it CAN'T be my equipment, RIGHT? THEY must be doing it!