600 Feet of RG11 DPP Twin -> DPP44

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Solid-State

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Original poster
Sep 25, 2005
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I'm about to do an install requiring a 650' IFL using RG11. The two RG11 segments will be between a Dishpro Plus Twin and a DPP44 switch for house distro to first receiver being twin tuner PVR using DPP bandstacked displexor.

I'm curious what amplifiers and/or voltage insertion I will require. There is power at the shed where the dish is located and the cable run is through 3' orange conduit. The cable I'm using is Belden 1525A RG11.

My concern is both voltage at the LNB (DPPTwin) and signal insertion loss over such a run. I also have two inline single slope amps rated to 2150 I intend to place just before the DPP44.

I've never done commercial installs and thus need help regarding required amplification and voltage insertion. I was also considering using voltage inserter/PSU from legacy SW44 switch at the dish/shed location.
 
Anything over a 200-250ft run you are going to need amplify the line more than likely, 600ft is just insane on RG11 IMO. I doubt the DPP44 is going to have the power to push signal 250ft on RG11 alone...good luck finding info about this kinda setup, its not a common one by any stretch. IIRC in most commercial applications dish uses standard RG6 for all connections, RG11 is used for "cable tv", I cant remember seeing RG11 used in many commercial dish installations. For most commercial installations standard RG6 is used, with standard amplifiers. Here is a good quality signal amplifier from Holland (not the country), 50 - 2050 MHz Satellite Amplifier - Cables To Go
 
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Just speaking theoretically, and not having any experience with these lengths whatsoever, I'd try this. I'd pull the DPP twin and install two DP duals. I'd power the duals and two amps in the shed, and then feed the signals into the two RG11 cables. At the other end at the house goes the DPP44. Note that there is no switching involved with a DP dual; it's bandstacked and all transponders are present on the coax simultaneously.

There is no hope at all using legacy equipment, which uses DC voltages to switch polarizations.
 
RG11 has twice the ampacity of RG6.

The current required for a DP Twin is about 500ma and the DPP Twin is about 700ma.

The voltage drop for the DP Twin will be about 7.5% and the drop for the DPP Twin is close to 11%. These numbers don't take couplers into account. You may be able to use a higher voltage inserter to get the power you need, but you'll be increasing signal loss with every device you add.
 
Use DP duals or singles. Any twins on a DPP44 will eventually cause problems.

Duals will also let you use 2 larger 24" commercial dishes for better signal to start with
 
Well I've measured signal at the dish and it's around -32 to -36 dbm. By the way it's for Bell TV 92/81.

What I'm going to do is this...

DPPtwin-->16' RG6 1829RC-->Sonora 4SPI-20 inserter at 20V-->3' RG6 1829RC-->Sonora LA282A-T 28dbm amp for around a -6 to -10 output--> 600' RG11 1525A-->Sonora LAL204A-T autogain amp-->Sonora HRvT116 TAPS directional coupler at 16db-->3' RG6 1829RC--> Finally DPP44 for house distro on electricians crap RG6.

There will be two IRDs with one being a PVR using the diplexer because electrician only ran one RG6 segment to each wall plate. The second will be the standard HD IRD and the other two ports/wall plates will have nothing but 75ohm terminator.

I expect/hope/PRAY I will see a signal of around -30 to -40 at the DPP44 LNB input.

Should this work experts out there?
 
I thought of that but customer wouldn't want two dishes at the entrance to their million dollar water front property. The wife already complained/asked about putting the dish else were it's it's virtually impossible as it's facing north north west and to the south south east it's up a hillside with 150-250' fir and cedar stand. Believe me if I could place the dish elsewhere I would.

I'm also curious why you say a DPPtwin will eventually cause problems on a DPP44 ??
 
I was also under the impression that when a DPPtwin is connected to a DPP44 it goes into bandstack mode and does no voltage switching what so ever. It also disabled the build in switch for third orbital slot.

Am I wrong?
 
Solid-State said:
I thought of that but customer wouldn't want two dishes at the entrance to their million dollar water front property. The wife already complained/asked about putting the dish else were.....
Click to expand...

Perhaps she would like a nice landscaping rock out front? And if a dish just happened to be inside, who's to know?
 
Solid-State said:
I was also under the impression that when a DPPtwin is connected to a DPP44 it goes into bandstack mode and does no voltage switching what so ever.
Click to expand...
Attaching a DPP44 to a DPP Twin turns the DPP Twin into a DP Twin. This is why the recommendations are for one or the other depending on how many receivers must be served.
 
There can sometimes be switch integration issues with the DDP Twin and a DPP44SW. You could save yourself some headache not to mention it's cheaper to just use two duals or a DP twin.
 
Solid-State said:
I thought of that but customer wouldn't want two dishes at the entrance to their million dollar water front property. The wife already complained/asked about putting the dish else were it's it's virtually impossible as it's facing north north west and to the south south east it's up a hillside with 150-250' fir and cedar stand. Believe me if I could place the dish elsewhere I would.

I'm also curious why you say a DPPtwin will eventually cause problems on a DPP44 ??
Click to expand...

IMO the customer is not worth the headache you are going to be dealing with, with cable runs that long and the non-standard equip being used, and your lack of knowledge of products being used they are going to probably haunt you for a long long time.
 
I agree totally about using a DP Twin or a Pair of DP Duals or DP Singles. Using a DPP Twin into a DPP 44 just isnt reliable. 650 ft cable distance even with amps - I doubt its going to hold up. You can do the switch and cable runs and test the voltage at the dish end of the run. If its below 10.5 Volts - youre gonna be out there all the time trying to fix the unfixable. I promise you.
 
If this customer is that rich, then how about an MDU install for her majesty's aesthetic demands and you won't be dealing with the limitations of the residential equipment. You would instead be dealing with Dish MDU equipment that is designed to handle an install like this one. Otherwise, as one poster said, they may not be worth the headache.

I agree, the real solution to this install if one wants to use the less expensive residential equipment is to have multiple reflectors that are within the 250ft. limit. I think you should have the wife present when you present the option of MDU or Residential and let husband and wife duke it out from there. If they are that rich and madame doesn't want multiple reflectors spoiling her home, then they should pop for the MDU.

Contact Dish about the current cost of MDU equipment and STB's.
 
harshness said:
Attaching a DPP44 to a DPP Twin turns the DPP Twin into a DP Twin. This is why the recommendations are for one or the other depending on how many receivers must be served.
Click to expand...

It doesn't turn it into a DP Twin it essentially turns it into 2 DP Singles. Adding a switch disables the built in switch causing the DPP-Twin to output 110 on one coax and 119 on the other. If it acted like a DP-Twin it would still output 119/110 on the same line just without the DP PRO capabilities, which is NOT what it does. And as asked above, yes it disables the input on the DPP Twin also.
 
i have two installations currently operating perfectly similar to this. one has 490' of rg 11 and the other 512. in both cases i run 3 dishes, dp lnbs, and a two cascaded dpp44 switchs at the house. at the house. i use conventional inline amps just before the cables enter the switches and see , essentially no signal loss and perfect function over those distances. i have a resort that i run where the dish is 1500 feet from the various cottages with receivers and i have no powered amps in those lines. just simple 20 db in line amps at the entry of the various switches along the way and it has run trouble free for 4 years. the only time i had problems was running legacy switches over 300 ft with rg6.
 
wardfan said:
It doesn't turn it into a DP Twin it essentially turns it into 2 DP Singles. Adding a switch disables the built in switch causing the DPP-Twin to output 110 on one coax and 119 on the other. If it acted like a DP-Twin it would still output 119/110 on the same line just without the DP PRO capabilities, which is NOT what it does. And as asked above, yes it disables the input on the DPP Twin also.
Click to expand...

Yes, the DP twin is just a DPP Twin without an input for a wing dish. Must use two DP21s to add a third orbital slot. Even the legacy twin/quad can output 110/119 on one cable, but just like the DP dual, requires SW21s for a third orbital slot. Legacy twins/quads cannot be hooked to external DP/DPP switches.
 

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