1ST Self Install since 97 - Not so great

[david_jr]

So I have been researching this a lot: wanted to get Mom on a new Dish account with Welcome Pack for low cost monthly bill for her. She has been OTA only for several months since Spectrum went digital knocking out the free cable channels she had with her basic internet and phone service. She gets most, but not all of her locals OTA, but a few of them are spotty due to poor signal (really it is a poor antenna, but that's another story). So I mentioned to her that she could get Dish Welcome Pack with HGTV, Hallmark and Hallmark movies along with her locals for $23 a month. She said she would like to get it. Research here I learn that Dish will not open a new account with Welcome Pack and will not provide free equipment. So I purchased a used 211K from a Sat Guys member and bought a new 1000.2 EA dish off of Ebay and bought a refurb 2TB EHD from Newegg, which was in short supply. JSheridan posted that there was a new fee coming for new non DVR accounts beginning in April so I connected the 211k to my own EA setup and activated it on a new account in my name and paid the one time $40 DVR fee and got the EHD setup for DVR (not easy and took over an hour on tech support.) So with my account open and all the equipment activated all I had to do was wait for some good weather to install the dish. I did that last Saturday. Started about 9 in the morning with a couple of helpers (# 1 son and # 3 son). First I cut a hole in ceiling in the basement in a closet below where Mom's living room TV sits. I was able to drill a hole for the wire through the floor into the stud wall behind the TV and cut a old work box into the wall for a 3 GHZ wall jack. Next I drilled a hole through the siding outside into the floor cavity that I exposed in the closet and snaked the coax in from outside and up behind the TV - easy squeezy. I terminated the coax outside a short distance from where it entered the house and placed a grounding block and connected. I mounted the dish about 15 feet from the grounding block on the corner of the house that faces southwest right next to the electrical service. I brought a small LCD TV with me and set it and my 211K up near the Dish and plugged everything in. Now is where things started going down hill. I had read that pointing a Dish with a 211k is difficult because of the lag between signal and response on the receiver. They weren't kidding, but I'm not sure that was the whole issue now. I set up the dish using the instructions for a 1000.2 EA. I set the skew to 86 per the table and the elevation at 41 per the instructions. The instructions said to peak the dish using the 72.7 on transponder 13 so I turned on the receiver and set it to that on the point dish screen. I had read that it is best to start to the left of where the azimuth stated is (looking from behind) and turn right until you get the signal. I also read that you had to make slight movements and then wait 90 seconds to see if the receiver was hitting anything. The azimuth on the sheet said 188. I was using the compass on my iPhone and trying to point the dish near it and bring it in. Bottom line is 3 hours later I gave up. I ran a coax from the grounding block to the dish, connected it and gave up for the night at 6PM. I told Mom I would research and let her know what I thought I should do.

So I decided to try to call for a Dish Tech to come and fix my mess. On Sunday, I went online to my account for this dish and added the Protection Plan @ $8.99 a month. When I added it, I was warned that I would be charged a $30 fee for cancelling the plan in less than 180 days. On Monday I called Dish to ask for a tech visit. They were able to give me an appointment for Tuesday (today) between 2 and 4. I live about 25 miles from my Mom across the border from NY into Massachusetts. I had a work appointment that was supposed to end at 1 which would just about give me enough time to get home, change and head to Mom's to meet the tech. They are always late anyway, right? Not this one. Of course, I couldn't get out of my meeting. Finally at 1:20 I excused myself and said I had another appointment that I had to get to. Complete truth, I should have said it at 1, but expected meeting to finish soon so I didn't. Well I raced home changed clothes and jumped in the car to head to Mom's expecting to be 20 minutes late or so, but the techs are never on time anyway. At 2:01 Mom texts me and says the tech is there. I called her and said just show him where everything is and I'll be there in about 20 minutes. I got there about 2:25, rolled up and saw the Dish truck in the driveway. I see the Dish right where I had left it and didn't see the tech. Jump out of the car and Mom yells out, "He's in here!" I go in and the tech has the remote in his hand and programming is showing on the TV!! I said, "Did you fix it?" He said that he repointed the dish and that was all he had to do. He said he shortened the wire I connected to the Dish just a bit and it took him longer to put a new coax connector on the wire than it did to repoint the dish. I asked him what I had done so wrong. He said that my settings were off. He said my skew of 86 was supposed to be 88 and the 41 elevation needed to be 44. Again, not close to the instructions. I asked him about the azimuth because where he pointed it was several inches left (south?) of where I was trying to point it using my phone's compass and the stated azimuth. He said he didn't know. He said after he changed the skew and elevation he connected his meter and turned the dish a bit and boom he got the signal. I said, "THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!" He was fairly young, late 20's ish and seemed like he knew what he was doing. I asked him if he could show me how to set the dish remote to work with Mom's TV. He said he had already done it. I asked him if he had another appointment to go to. He said no we were his last. He said he was from Missouri and Dish asked him to come up here to work because they were so busy and they are putting him up in a motel. He said he is not really busy and isn't really making a lot of money like they said. I thanked him for doing such a good job and being so nice and then I gave him a $20 tip, which was all I had on me and he left. I guess I learned that without a satellite meter it is nigh unto impossible to aim the new dishes? I couldn't even get a sniff of it, he got it in seconds. Very frustrating. I don't remember it being so difficult pointing my Dish 300 back in 97. Well Dish charged me $10 for the visit and I have to figure out when is best time to cancel DPP. I think I will wait at least one month to make sure everything is working well before I cancel it.

Also thanks to all those that offered me advice and tips in the other threads I was researching in.

 

[HipKat]

He's probably one of our guys. We have people up in the Albany area for the next few months. I'm thinking about making the trip up, myself, but we have offices in Burlington, IA, Kansas City, Missouri and Pittsfield, IL that employ guys who live in MO. Did his uniform say Galaxy One on the right side/Chest?

 

[david_jr]

I think it did say Galaxy One. I remember there was a logo on his shirt that was not a Dish logo. Definitely a DISH truck though. One other thing I forgot to mention. I asked him how my wiring job from the dish to the grounding block and in through the house. He said other than a little too much at the dish itself everything looked good. I told him I wanted his advice on grounding the dish. He said that he never grounds a dish unless it is for the internet. He said this one did not need to be grounded. Is he right? Should a regular TV dish be grounded "properly"? Now research says otherwise. Everywhere I look it says dish must be grounded to or bonded to the house wiring ground. Now on this house, the electrical service enters the house right next to the house. The gas service enters the house in the same area, as well as CATV and Verizon phone. On the inside of the house in the basement, there is an electrical panel closet. Inside the closet is the electrical service panel. There is a ground cable coming out of the service panel that goes back outside through a PVC conduit into the ground, I assume to an underground grounding rod. Inside the closet, the CATV and Verizon phone are grounded to that cable. If I do ground the dish, can I just attach a green ground wire (? gauge) to the grounding block, run it back to the dish and attach to the dish's grounding screw, then drill a hole through the wall and run the same grounding wire into the closet and ground to the cable as the CATV and phone are? Or would you do it a different way or not at all?

 

[JSheridan]

Just run a ground wire from the ground block to the house ground braid. The dish itself doesn't need to be grounded anymore but the wire that comes from the dish to the basement should be bonded to the house ground not more than 7 meters from the point of entry.

Dish says that if grounding in this way is not possible then it's not an automatic fail, so it's kind of optional especially if you like to cut corners. That said, we always ground whenever possible.

 

[HipKat]

Just run a ground wire from the ground block to the house ground braid. The dish itself doesn't need to be grounded anymore but the wire that comes from the dish to the basement should be bonded to the house ground not more than 7 meters from the point of entry.

Dish says that if grounding in this way is not possible then it's not an automatic fail, so it's kind of optional especially if you like to cut corners. That said, we always ground whenever possible.

It definitely should be grounded. The only time we don’t ground is if the only ground point is more than 20 feet from the ground block, which is contradictory to how DirecTV does it, or if it’s a multi dwelling unit, were they will run cable all the way around the house and back just to hit a ground.

I wish there was a way you could get his name, because the company loves to hear good reviews and the technicians

 

[JSheridan]

It definitely should be grounded. The only time we don’t ground is if the only ground point is more than 20 feet from the ground block, which is contradictory to how DirecTV does it, or if it’s a multi dwelling unit, were they will run cable all the way around the house and back just to hit a ground.

I wish there was a way you could get his name, because the company loves to hear good reviews and the technicians

As you probably know the rules are the same for Dish and DirecTV which say that the ground should be within 7 meters (about 22 ft) of the point where the wire enters the building. We ground whenever that condition can be met just like you do. That said I think we're among a minority of techs who bother, most are like the guy from Missouri who david_jr referred to who said he never does it and it's not necessary.

 

[HipKat]

As you probably know the rules are the same for Dish and DirecTV which say that the ground should be within 7 meters (about 22 ft) of the point where the wire enters the building. We ground whenever that condition can be met just like you do. That said I think we're among a minority of techs who bother, most are like the guy from Missouri who david_jr referred to who said he never does it and it's not necessary.

I Agree. I bet almost 90% of the previous installs I go to are not grounded

 

[JSheridan]

I Agree. I bet almost 90% of the previous installs I go to are not grounded

I went to an install a few weeks ago and I thought 'great they grounded it when they put it in'. I checked further and the green wire was attached to the ground block but the installer had just stuck the other end in the dirt. And that was a Hughesnet install!

 

[sam_gordon]

The reason you had problems (aside from the elevation being off) is you were trusting your iPhone for a compass heading. It doesn't take but a degree or two (at most three) of elevation or azimuth to have you off a satellite. A lagging meter will frustrate the heck out of you.

 

[david_jr]

OK thanks for all of the input on the grounding. First, what gauge wire should I use? Second, I would have to run the ground wire back toward the dish plus another foot or so and then drill a hole in the siding through the sill plate into the basement where the electrical panel is and connect to the ground braid there as shown in my photo above. It is not exposed outside, it is in PVC conduit from where it exits the house until it connects to the ground(ing rod?). Nothing is grounded outside. Third, I gave the tech the highest marks possible in the online survey they sent me. Fourth, I checked the dish on my house and there is a ground wire attached to the dish on the roof that is part of the dual coax cable the installer installed several years back when I got my VIP722K upgrade to HD. It runs across the roof and onto the gable end fascia board where it is connected to a grounding block. It goes nowhere after the grounding block, it ends right there. Fifth, any recommendations on how long to hold onto DPP before dropping it to maximize savings?

 

[david_jr]

The reason you had problems (aside from the elevation being off) is you were trusting your iPhone for a compass heading. It doesn't take but a degree or two (at most three) of elevation or azimuth to have you off a satellite. A lagging meter will frustrate the heck out of you.

Yes, I have no heck left in me, it has ALL been frustrated out!! The compass seemed to have a mind of its own at times showing different readings one minute to the next pointing in the same direction.

 

[HipKat]

That wire on the dual cable is a messenger line that transfer static from the dish to the ground block. From the ground block run 16 gauge wire and you can ground it top the cutoff box outside. Appreciate the high marks on the survey. That survey is pone of the metrics that determine a tech's pay grade. We have 6 metrics and dropping just one in a quarterly marking period means the next quarter, at a lower level is a pretty big loss of pay. For me, I figured about 1500 bucks

 

[david_jr]

The reason you had problems (aside from the elevation being off) is you were trusting your iPhone for a compass heading. It doesn't take but a degree or two (at most three) of elevation or azimuth to have you off a satellite. A lagging meter will frustrate the heck out of you.

I think the reason I am so frustrated with this is that the actual settings that the DISH tech locked the dish into were quite a bit off from what the 1000.2 instruction sheet had for Eastern Arc installation. The paper said 41 elevation, but he ended up closer to 44, the paper said 86 for skew, but he set it to 88, the paper said 188 for azimuth, what he set it at according to my phone was closer to 180. I was NEVER going to get a signal with the settings from the paperwork that came with the dish.

That wire on the dual cable is a messenger line that transfer static from the dish to the ground block. From the ground block run 16 gauge wire and you can ground it top the cutoff box outside. Appreciate the high marks on the survey. That survey is pone of the metrics that determine a tech's pay grade. We have 6 metrics and dropping just one in a quarterly marking period means the next quarter, at a lower level is a pretty big loss of pay. For me, I figured about 1500 bucks

Here are the entry points at the house. Top left corner is the electrical service, The two wires running next to the service and toward the gas entry is cable and phone lines. The conduit on the right is where the house ground braid comes back out and I assume goes to ground rod. Would you attach the ground to one of these, or would you punch the ground wire through to the inside and attach to the ground braid near where the cable and phone attach to it in the electric closet?

 

[sam_gordon]

I think the reason I am so frustrated with this is that the actual settings that the DISH tech locked the dish into were quite a bit off from what the 1000.2 instruction sheet had for Eastern Arc installation. The paper said 41 elevation, but he ended up closer to 44, the paper said 86 for skew, but he set it to 88, the paper said 188 for azimuth, what he set it at according to my phone was closer to 180. I was NEVER going to get a signal with the settings from the paperwork that came with the dish.

I'm not sure how accurate an iPhone would be for a compass heading. So just because your phone says 180 doesn't mean that's true. I would never trust the markings as "here's what it will be", especially since you're just using a zip code, but more as "start here and it will be close".

 

[HipKat]

I think the reason I am so frustrated with this is that the actual settings that the DISH tech locked the dish into were quite a bit off from what the 1000.2 instruction sheet had for Eastern Arc installation. The paper said 41 elevation, but he ended up closer to 44, the paper said 86 for skew, but he set it to 88, the paper said 188 for azimuth, what he set it at according to my phone was closer to 180. I was NEVER going to get a signal with the settings from the paperwork that came with the dish.



View attachment 132243

Here are the entry points at the house. Top left corner is the electrical service, The two wires running next to the service and toward the gas entry is cable and phone lines. The conduit on the right is where the house ground braid comes back out and I assume goes to ground rod. Would you attach the ground to one of these, or would you punch the ground wire through to the inside and attach to the ground braid near where the cable and phone attach to it in the electric closet?

I would attach it to the service box in the top left corner

 

[Claude Greiner]

The best way to get a ground is off the braided copper cable inside the house where it runs bare.

You should run the wire outside and ground at the point of entry, but you can ground indoors also.

The dish is not necessary to be grounded. I have never grounded a dish in over 20 years.

I usually like #10 or #12 for a ground, but remember it’s just for static and to keep the grounds balanced. It’s not intended to divert a lightning strike

 

[Claude Greiner]

Don’t ground to the gas meter. Ha ha lol lol.

I’m surprised they put the ground in the plastic conduit. Usually it’s left outside bare.

 

[pattykay]

I think the reason I am so frustrated with this is that the actual settings that the DISH tech locked the dish into were quite a bit off from what the 1000.2 instruction sheet had for Eastern Arc installation. The paper said 41 elevation, but he ended up closer to 44, the paper said 86 for skew, but he set it to 88, the paper said 188 for azimuth, what he set it at according to my phone was closer to 180. I was NEVER going to get a signal with the settings from the paperwork that came with the dish.

For future reference, an azimuth of 180 is due south, with numbers lower than that to the east, and numbers higher than that to the west. So, I knew that 188 had to be wrong as soon as I read it, since I doubt there are very many locations in the US where the Eastern Arc satellites would be to the southwest.

 

[david_jr]

Hence my frustration with the printed paperwork.

 

[JSheridan]

For future reference, an azimuth of 180 is due south, with numbers lower than that to the east, and numbers higher than that to the west. So, I knew that 188 had to be wrong as soon as I read it, since I doubt there are very many locations in the US where the Eastern Arc satellites would be to the southwest.

But magnetic south is about 193 in our area due to the difference between true south and magnetic south. I've done some work in david_jr's neck of the woods and 61.5 is about 175 deg magnetic plus or minus and 72 is about 192 deg magnetic plus or minus so in fact where he is in MA the point for a 1000.2 EA dish is probably pretty close to 188.

Here's a good calculator to find the magnetic deviation in your area:

NCEI Geomagnetic Calculators