311's losing signal

[RandallA]

This setup was installed back in December and I've been having this problem ever since. Here are some pictures of the setup:

http://home.comcast.net/~rantain/dish_network.html

Original configuration: 1 DP Twin + 1 DP Dual ==> 3 runs to 2 DP34's (about 100 ft.) ==> to feed 5 311's receivers. Longest run from switch to receiver 100 ft. (total 200 ft).

Test configuration: 1 DP Quad + 1 DP Dual ==> 1 DP34 about 100 ft. ==> to feed 4 311's receivers. Receiver from longest run moved to a shorter run from same DP Quad and DP dual ==> 1 DP34 ==> feed 1 311 receiver (25 ft).

When using the original configuration all the receiver will randomly lose the signal. When moved to the test configuration only the receivers (4) in the long run will lose the signal.

What I've done:
- Swapped DP Twin with DP Quad
- Replaced both DP34's (tried 4 different ones)
- Replaced all cable runs from switches to receivers
- Replaced all cable runs from LNB's to switches (Long run).
- Replaced grounding block
- Replaced all connectors in all cable runs.

The problem is still there after all this troubleshooting. E* technician came about 3 weeks ago and checked all the connectors, replaced one of the DP34's and Nada. The problem is that it happens randomly and it's hard to show it when they are here.

When a receiver loses the signal the only way to get it back is by resetting the receiver (unplugging it or holding the power button). These are a few things that I've tried when a receiver loses the signal with no luck:

- Moved the cable to another port at the switch
- Used a barrel connector to run a cable from another receiver that is working to the receiver that lost the signal.
- Connected the LNB run directly to the receiver using a barrel connector.
- Check switch

The receiver will display the signal level from different transponders and different satellites but it will not lock the signal. When you run "SysInfo", it will show "Connections OK", "NO Signal".

Any suggestions are welcome. I'm running out of ideas and the only thing I can think of is the distance for the long runs but they are all under 200 ft.

Run 1
LNB's to switch = 3 100 ft runs
Receiver 1 = 40 ft.
Receiver 2 = 40 ft.
Receiver 3 = 45 ft.
Receiver 4 = 75 ft.

Run 2
LNB's to switch = 3 10 ft runs
Receiver 5 = 25 ft. from switch
No problems here.

 

[Jared Twomey]

i would try putting some inline amplifiers in the lines that are dropping out...

 

[Stargazer]

Don't hurt to try to get help here with the situation as well.

 

[RandallA]

Thanks Stargazer. I thought it was going to be an easy one and wanted to keep it in one forum but looks like I needed to expose the problem to more people.
It was suggested in another forum to move the switch closer to the LNB's and have the long runs come from there. So I did that this afternoon.
I now have:

DP Quad + DP Dual ==> DP34 ==> 4 receivers (25 ft, 140 ft, 140 ft, 145 ft runs)
DP Quad ==> 1 receiver (No 148 on this one)

The 3 long runs have a grounding block and barrel connectors in between the switch and receivers. The short run from the DP34 and the run from the Quad don't have a grounding block. If this works, I'll have to figure out how to ground those runs.

We'll see what happens.

 

[Stargazer]

Your better off having the switch closer to the receivers than closer to the lnbf's. Does the receivers share the same grounding block? Try disconnecting them from the grounding block bypassing it with barrel connectors and see if that resolves the issue. If it does then there is something about the ground or grounding block causing you the issue particularly if they all share the same one. The ground block is recommended to be DishPro approved especially in that long of a wire run. You could ground it at the switch. Also is it grounded at the power ground or a seperate ground altogether? They should be on the same ground that the electric meter is connected to so that there is not a ground loop.

 

[RandallA]

I bought the grounding block at Dishstore.net:
http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?cPath=51&products_id=89

This ground block is on the same ground as the electric meter. Cable TV is also grounded here. I disconnected the ground to see if that was the problem and it kept doing it, so I don't think is the ground but it's possible that I have a bad ground block. I will bypass the ground block and use barrel connectors.

You can see a picture of the grounding block here:
http://home.comcast.net/~rantain
The black cable in the picture is for Comcast, the white ones are from E*. They are no longer there as I replaced the long runs last weekend.

After the changes I made today, I have the 3 long runs going through the ground block. So if one of the receivers begins having problems, I probably have a bad grounding block.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Remember: there are (at least) two types of ground block and barrel connector: those that are rated for at least 2GHz and those that are not. With runs this long, that CAN make a difference.

Another thing is the quality of the cable you're using. Is it pure copper, or copper-clad steel? For runs like this, it best be pure copper.

Oh - and I see from your pics that you are using the wrong transponders for noting signal strength. ALWAYS use 11 & 12 as base points for 110, 119 and 148. Note that you will see signal loss on the even transponders first - they are at a higher frequency on the cable (1650-2150MHz).

 

[RandallA]

Thanks for replying SimpleSimon.

The installer used solid copper and I changed it to copper clad steel last weekend, I know solid copper is better for long runs but the problem has always been there even with solid copper cable. We thought it was the cable but it wasn't, that's the reason for the change of cables. Also one of the cables was punctured but that was not the problem.

The ground block that I'm using is rated 3Ghz. I bought it at dishstore.net.
http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?cPath=51&products_id=89

The pictures that I have there are just to show that it will display the signal level but will not lock the signal not to diplay my signal strength.

My signal strengths are good for all of the transponders. The lowest ones are in the low 90's, most of them are over 100's. Here are my readings for transponders 11 and 12:

Trans. 119 110 148
11 105 101 109
12 112 107 92

One thing I have noticed is that when a receiver loses the signal, the last channel viewed was one of the local channels. They are in the 119 sat. transponder 7. I can't say for sure that is always the case but most of the time that's the last transponder used.

By the way, I took a reading at the voltage a while back.

At the switches:
Voltage
Family Room 19.91
Living Room 19.85
Master Bed. 19.93
Bedroom 2 19.85
Bedroom 3 19.96

At the LNB's:

19.12 for 119 and 110
19.14 for the 148

Thanks for the replies.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Well, I'm out of ideas - all that sounds perfectly fine.

Oh - a shot in the dark - can you check voltage while it's hooked up? Use a SHORT piece of stripped coax and make a jumper - remember, you need the ground continuous, too. Voltage drop shows up under load.

 

[ZandarKoad]

Can't be of much help, but I can sympathize. I had a service call on a similar problem, except with a Superdish. Same # of recievers, using 2 DP34s... I spent 5 hours at the job, did everything you can imagine, and eventually left without solving the problem. I spent 2 hours on the phone with advanced tech support, and they finally gave up on me. My supervisor wanted me to start hooking up different TVs to the problem reciever. The one reciever was missing all even transponders on 119, even with brand new RG6 dummy line straight off the 119 LNB to the reciever (and the other 4 recivers were working perfect). Freaky stuff. I never did find out what was wrong...

 

[RandallA]

ZandarKoad,

Thanks for sharing, I guess I'm not alone with these weird problems with the 311's. In my setup all of the 311's lose the signal in the long runs, I wish it was only one as I would replace the receiver.

SimpleSimon,

I've read these forums for the last 6 months and I've tried everything that I could possible think of and read with no luck.

I'm interested in testing the voltage under load but can't understand how I would do that. I got plenty of jumpers but where do I connect them?

Please advise. Thanks.

Since I made changes to the configuration yesterday, I will wait the usual 4 to 7 days that it takes for the problem to show up. So if you don't hear from me that means that all receivers are fine.

Thanks all for the help, this can be very frustrating but I want to find the solution.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Well, it's a somewhat risky procedure.

You need some way of attaching the voltmeter lead to the center conductor while it's hooked up. Take the black lead to a connector shield as usual.

Half-stripping a SHORT - very short - jumper is how I do it. Take a knife and whittle away until you can see the conductor. Just make SURE you've got room to attach the probe without touching the shield.

 

[RandallA]

Thanks SimpleSimon, I'll try that. I figure it was some thing odd that I needed to do.

Update:

Went ahead and measured the voltage with the jumper cable and I got around 19.31 V for the LNB's. I did notice that it will fluctuate between 19.20 V and 19.41 V but it will stay for a while at 19.31 V. I assume that the fluctuation is normal and I'm OK with those readings.
No problems so far with moving the switch close to the LNB's.

 

[RandallA]

After 5 days the problem came back today, one of the receivers in the long runs lost the signal. I moved the long runs back to the switch in the garage and replaced the grounding blocks with new ones. Now to wait and see what happens.

Current configuration:

1 DP Quad + 1 DP Dual ==> New grounding blocks (Single port and dual port) about 100 ft. ==> 1 DP34 ==> to feed 3 311's receivers(45 ft. , 45 ft., and 50 ft.)

1 DP Quad + 1 DP dual ==> 1 DP34 about 6 ft. ==> to feed 2 311's receiver (25 ft. and 65 ft.).

 

[SimpleSimon]

Dang it - no voltage drop problem.

 

[Damian_1999]

ok, I didnt see this listed in the original post or in any of the other replys so I have to ask.. in your sys info, you got connections ok, but no sig. have you checked your line of sight???

 

[RandallA]

My lowest signal levels for all transponders on the 3 satellites is in the mid 90's. Most of them are over 100. So I don't think the problem is the line of sight.