622 OTA signal loss (1 Viewer)

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waltinvt

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Feb 16, 2004
3,439
1
Vermont
Barrysb,

I've tried varied attenuation and different antenna configurations/cabling. Nothing helps here! I really get a kick out of the stations saying that it is a problem at our end. This is not the case here, but the station at first blamed my equipment. I think it is about time that those responsible for the advent of this digital transition police not only the airwaves but the manufactures of the digital product to kill these frustrating bugs. Regarding the 622, the ATSC tuner is inflexible as compared to many other ATSC tuners. It wouldn't hurt if some efforts were put into making them more flexible so they will work with a less than perfect signal.
boy921
It's not too hard to understand. The better your OTA is, the less chance "E" has of getting you to sub to their locals package.

This is even more true since Dish has made the business decision to lessen the PQ of what they do provide in favor of more channels. Plus with the loss of their distants license, apparently they'll never be able to offer HD distants either.
 
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boy921

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 24, 2004
391
0
N. California
It's not too hard to understand. The better your OTA is, the less chance "E" has of getting you to sub to their locals package.

This is even more true since Dish has made the business decision to lessen the PQ of what they do provide in favor of more channels. Plus with the loss of their distants license, apparently they'll never be able to offer HD distants either.
I can see where E* could discontinue having ATSC tuners included in their satellite receivers once they go 100% HD local into local. I don't think that this is going to happen for several years. Since they supply the remedy to receive HD locals via OTA, it is in their best interest to make their ATSC tuners work properly. If they can't, they will lose customers to other providers who can supply to their needs.

Concerning lessening of PQ, I think E* will continue to improve their technology so to spare bandwidth as they are doing with MPEG-4. How many TV stations supply the maximum amount of bandwidth to the HD channel and sacrifice the sub-channels, and how many TV stations use MPEG-4?
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
It's not too hard to understand. The better your OTA is, the less chance "E" has of getting you to sub to their locals package.

This is even more true since Dish has made the business decision to lessen the PQ of what they do provide in favor of more channels. Plus with the loss of their distants license, apparently they'll never be able to offer HD distants either.

My only reason for subscribing to analog locals is to get program data on Dish's EPG for the OTA DT channels. This allows me to to create record timers for OTA-DT programs.

It's a shame to be running a large number of identical, concurrent HDTV programs to satisfy HD LIL. What a waste of spectrum space! I'm comfortable with my hybrid system and would be a happy camper if my one problem OTA could be received without having to switch attenuation.
 

fourholesn1

Member
May 4, 2004
6
0
On the subject of attenuation of the signal to get around this problem.........

Here in Springfield, MO everyone with the Dish receivers are having this problem it seems and some have fixed it with attenuation. I was able to fix it by switching from my roof mounted antenna which was giving me upper 90's signal strength to a cheapo rabbit ears antenna plus 4 splitters which dropped my signal to around 70. I played with it quite a bit and any signal much over 70 will cause the problem but below that it seems to work fine. Of course much below 65 and you start to lose the signal so it's a fine line. I have found that with the rabbit ears I can rotate it and raise or lower the signal strength to get that optimal 65-70 signal. Hope this helps!
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
On the subject of attenuation of the signal to get around this problem.........

Here in Springfield, MO everyone with the Dish receivers are having this problem it seems and some have fixed it with attenuation. I was able to fix it by switching from my roof mounted antenna which was giving me upper 90's signal strength to a cheapo rabbit ears antenna plus 4 splitters which dropped my signal to around 70. I played with it quite a bit and any signal much over 70 will cause the problem but below that it seems to work fine. Of course much below 65 and you start to lose the signal so it's a fine line. I have found that with the rabbit ears I can rotate it and raise or lower the signal strength to get that optimal 65-70 signal. Hope this helps!

This is similar to what I'm experiencing. Everything is fine as long as my signal stays in the low 70s. If it increases to 75-76, the picture breaks up. Above that, I intermittently get the "Lost Signal" message. I'm thinking there is some different circuitry in the tuner chip that kicks in or out around the 75 mark to help improve receiver performance. Above that the tuner is sensitive to whatever is in the transmitted signal that is causing the problem and below this point, it is not.
 

fourholesn1

Member
May 4, 2004
6
0
I'm thinking there is some different circuitry in the tuner chip that kicks in or out around the 75 mark to help improve receiver performance. Above that the tuner is sensitive to whatever is in the transmitted signal that is causing the problem and below this point, it is not.

I have no idea but it seems like to me that somehow the extra power builds up and overloads something which causes the signal dropout, then it gets reset and then buildup begins again. But I'm a mechanical engineer so what do I know?? :)
 

hammerdown

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 14, 2005
324
0
Northern California
Put a Radio Shack attenuator on my Vip211 a few days ago, and have to say things seem to have improved. Amazingly like other people are saying, if I turn the knob to where the signal meter says about 70-75% the constant pixellation goes away and only get one or two lost signal popups per hour now.

Hammer
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
Put a Radio Shack attenuator on my Vip211 a few days ago, and have to say things seem to have improved. Amazingly like other people are saying, if I turn the knob to where the signal meter says about 70-75% the constant pixellation goes away and only get one or two lost signal popups per hour now.

Hammer

Our numbers are growing. If this keeps up, we may even find out what what we're doing. :D
 

fourholesn1

Member
May 4, 2004
6
0
Put a Radio Shack attenuator on my Vip211 a few days ago, and have to say things seem to have improved. Amazingly like other people are saying, if I turn the knob to where the signal meter says about 70-75% the constant pixellation goes away and only get one or two lost signal popups per hour now.

Hammer

Hammer, I found that with a signal 70-75 I got a few lost signals an hour like you but with a signal of 65-70 I got none. If you can lower your signal a bit more you might see that too. Adding one splitter would do that.
 

boy921

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 24, 2004
391
0
N. California
Our numbers are growing. If this keeps up, we may even find out what what we're doing. :D
Regarding KCVU FOX 30 digital, yesterday they did something to the signal. It was at low power for awhile and all was good. When they took it back to full power it would occasionally cause drop-out with pixelation and distorted audio. I tried your attenuation and by moving the direction of the antenna, I was able to get it in the 68-72 sweet spot that you describe. The evening went well with just a couple of drop-outs. I thought all was pretty good until this morning. It is worse now than it ever was. Moving the antenna and trying attenuation has no affect, at all. What ever they did today has extended to the the unaffected Panasonic HDTV's ATSC tuner and now the picture is pixileting badly. My Panasonic TC-32LE60 can no longer work with the channel. This is not good.
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
What ever they did today has extended to the the unaffected Panasonic HDTV's ATSC tuner and now the picture is pixileting badly. My Panasonic TC-32LE60 can no longer work with the channel. This is not good.

Sorry to read about your problem. We're working in a vary narrow signal range and atmospheric conditions may play a part in this case. Also rotating the antenna probably introduces other conditions that a attenuator would not, such as additional multipath errors or ghosting. Its best to align the antenna directly toward the transmitter and find a way to introduce attenuation in the antenna feed.
 
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boy921

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 24, 2004
391
0
N. California
Sorry to read about your problem. We're working in a vary narrow signal range and atmospheric conditions may play a part in this case. Also rotating the antenna probably introduces other conditions that a attenuator would not, such as additional multipath errors or ghosting. Its best to align the antenna directly toward the transmitter and find a way to introduce attenuation in the antenna feed.
The signal is at full power. It doesn't matter which direction any antenna is aimed or what attenuation is used. It is not weather. It is something in the transmission of the signal. The station had been working on it and I was able to verify this with them. They now continue to work on the problem. It was coincidence that the attenuation and antenna aiming seemed to make it better. The transmission of the signal was just better yesterday and now is much sicker than it has ever been. I was hoping that your remedy was part of the equation, it is not. Thanks for the advise.
 

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,436
2,180
Lubbock, Texas
Local FOX was having the same problem when they went to full power, but replaced their modulator and now no problems with FOX HD on 622's here.
 

boy921

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 24, 2004
391
0
N. California
Local FOX was having the same problem when they went to full power, but replaced their modulator and now no problems with FOX HD on 622's here.
Excellent. Yes they are still fighting with the Axcer exciter (modulator). At your FOX station were they using the Axcera DT2B ATSC Exciter-Modulator? I'm beginning to think that when our FOX station sends the exciter to the manufacture for repair, the manufacturer is sending them an old exciter, maybe the one now in use is from your station :eek: They do have me convinced that it is because of the exciters firmware. Jim5506, they had ours fixed for a little over two weeks, I hope your station doesn't have the same fall back.
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
The signal is at full power. It doesn't matter which direction any antenna is aimed or what attenuation is used.

Just one more thought, is there an analog station originating from the same transmission location and operating on a nearby frequency as the problem station? Have you looked at it to determine the quality of reception at your location? I'm just trying to cover all possibilities.
 

dclboro

SatelliteGuys Family
Feb 11, 2007
55
0
barrysb,
I live in VA Beach and I'm having the same problem with WAVY 10. A Dish installer was at my house today and he told me that they have tried everything to remedy the problem in the area, but it is no use because the actual problem is the signal that WAVY is sending out. He said it will never be fixed until WAVY decides to do something about it. If you have any updates please post. I'm upset that the channel that I watch the most is having problems.
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
barrysb,
I live in VA Beach and I'm having the same problem with WAVY 10. A Dish installer was at my house today and he told me that they have tried everything to remedy the problem in the area, but it is no use because the actual problem is the signal that WAVY is sending out. He said it will never be fixed until WAVY decides to do something about it. If you have any updates please post. I'm upset that the channel that I watch the most is having problems.

I've spent a lot of time the past week in the AVS Forum communicating with the Director of Engineering at WAVY-DT. He will not unilaterally take any action to resolve the problem at his end, primarily because his test equipment indicates their signal is compliant with the ATSC requirements. He will work with engineers at Dish to try and help them find out why the 622 cannot handle this signal. I thought I had a pretty good clue as to what might be happening in the receiver but now I'm not too sure. The culprit might even be a second signal but I haven't been able to identify any source.

In the mean time, you could try my work-around of inserting a large amount of attenuation in the antenna feed to the 622. Here's a source
 

Stacy A

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Sep 15, 2003
1,248
0
northeast Texas
I can relate to the "loss of sync" notion on the 622. I am forced to get FOX-HD OTA here in Seattle because Dish won't carry it (dispute with the station's owner). I get all the other local HD stations OTA just fine, but Fox is always a bit flaky. Last night, for instance, during "24" it was perfect - my signal strength was 72-75 for the entire broadcast.

However, I have seen other times where the signal is at 70+, drops to 0, and then comes right back to 70+. The signal is strong and then drops out completely for a few seconds (sometimes a few minutes) and then goes back to being fine for a whle. It's intermittent but I can't find a common situation (weather, etc.) when it's not working right.

I know this doesn't really address your concern, but your description of "loss of sync" is exactly what I seem to have with this station.


We have had this exact problem on occasion here for one of our local CBS stations (out of Shreveport, LA, to be exact). However, between two of us, we have been able to determine it is the broadcaster's fault, not the Dish ATSC tuner. In my opinion, its the broadcasters stream getting messed up somehow and the PSIP information in the datastream becomes uninterpretable by the ATSC tuner in brief spurts, causing a reading of 0 for signal strength. The reason I know its the broadcasters fault is my next door neighbor was using a 622 and I was using an 811, and we both were seeing the same problem at the same time while trying to watch the same channel.
 

barrysb

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 11, 2003
76
0
We have had this exact problem on occasion here for one of our local CBS stations (out of Shreveport, LA, to be exact). However, between two of us, we have been able to determine it is the broadcaster's fault, not the Dish ATSC tuner. In my opinion, its the broadcasters stream getting messed up somehow and the PSIP information in the datastream becomes uninterpretable by the ATSC tuner in brief spurts, causing a reading of 0 for signal strength. The reason I know its the broadcasters fault is my next door neighbor was using a 622 and I was using an 811, and we both were seeing the same problem at the same time while trying to watch the same channel.

There may be more than one condition causing the problems we're experiencing with certain stations. Since I've been able to control the instability with attenuation may point one direction and if attenuation doesn't work in your case, then your problem could be caused by another signal condition.

I wouldn't want to point the finger in any direction because there are probably many more non-Dish OTA receivers not having problems with these signals. I think it's a shared responsibility. Both Dish receiver engineers and engineers from the transmitter companies, whose products are causing the problem need to collaborate on a solution.

I hope Dish realizes this is the way to proceed.
 
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