Ask Dish: This was deleted at the other place

TheForce

SatelliteGuys Master
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Supporting Founder
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Oct 13, 2003
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I posted something to this effect where it is supposed to be seen by Eldon and E* but it was deleted with no explanation. I'll try to reconstruct what my CTA (Call To Action) said but it is not an exact copy since I didn't save it as I didn't think it would be deleted.

Ask Dish: Stop farting around and get us a software that works!

It's about time, 7 months now, that the 921 bug state has continued with little improvement. I have been on board with it since January so for me it's a 6 month ride. During that time Eldon has issued quite a few software attempts to fix some obvious bugs, mostly with OTA issues. Until recently I didn't know but now, having a TIVO and the 921 I know that the problem rests with the developers of the 921, not the stations or technology state of the art.
I now ask Charlie Ergan to get serious and put Eldon on notice to do another update within 30 days that fixes the known issues or they are on the chopping block. He should hire a DVR director to report to him and be responsible to holding the E* team, Eldon, and the testers to a strict performance zero tolerance standard. He should seek out replacement personnel who can do the job. He should not rule out a total and complete remake of the 921 software and that includes soliciting the competition to develop it from scratch. Charlie needs to get with this on all DVR's and stop this present approach of selling a product that doesn't work, accepting excuses from his team that they don't know how to fix it so they should just announce it dead (vis a vis Dishwire). E* needs a team of developers who can get the job done.

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Scott- If you have to delete this, I'd appreciate an explanation. I suspect that Mark was caught in a quandry between what he wants Eldon to read and what needs to be said to get some action, For me it was the ax over there. I accept that consequence as I respect it is his house. IT is probably a system of censorship that works much like the call screeners on Charlie Chats. My post was not in any hatred mood. It was in a business to go to success charge, a call to action.
When I had my chemical company I would often have to put my whiny chemists and developer people on notice like this and it usually got results. When it didn't, they were gone! I never called my people in and did the Donald Trump routine, I always gave them one last chance because I never allowed myself to get up against the deadline before pulling the plug. Charlie needs to do this. There is no deadline but 7 months of Eldon Farting around when the competition (TIVO) is sailing free on all these issues just tells me Eldon is either farting around trying to stretch out the work or they are plain incompetent.
 
Don,

I agree that it's a huge dissappointment that after 8 months the 921 is barely improved from where it started. The TiVo on it's first day of release has local OTA guide data, and can be trusted to actually record a timer event. There's no "don't touch that" (pads) or the thing won't work.

I'm sure the Eldon guys are trying to fix it (while simultaneously updating thier resumes). There seems to be definate problems here. Either the hardware is extremely buggy making it difficult to create stable software. Or, the software is a huge patched up mess and needs a ground-up rewrite (which would take a year).

If you posted this to the "Official 921 Support" forum, it's kind of out of scope of bug fixes, specific questions, or feature requests.

If you posted it to the general Dish PVR forum, it should not have been deleted.

My prediction is that Echostar's solution will be to can the 921 when the 942 is released. They can't drop it now and be without a product to compete with HD-Tivo. I think the increased production of the 921 is an indication that the 942 will not be ready for the holiday season (3 months).

Echostar should compensate the early adopters with a swap to a 942 (they still owe us of the loss of firewire). I doubt they will do this.

DirectTV has been significantly outperforming EchoStar on new subscriber numbers. I think we can all guess why that is. Maybe at some point, Charlie will get a clue.

(this will quickly turn into a nice rant thread - with other die-harders saying we're being too hard on the poor defenseless 921)
 
My prediction is that Echostar's solution will be to can the 921 when the 942 is released. They can't drop it now and be without a product to compete with HD-Tivo. I think the increased production of the 921 is an indication that the 942 will not be ready for the holiday season (3 months).

Echostar should compensate the early adopters with a swap to a 942 (they still owe us of the loss of firewire). I doubt they will do this.

David,

What you have said are my feelings exactly, the 921 is going to be quick to go the way of the dinosour. As soon as the 942 is ready the 921 will be extinct.

I also agree that the recent ramp up on 921's means we will not see the 942 this year.

I will be honest, we had close to 400 on our waiting list for 921's and when it came time to contact each person to let them know their 921 was in and available, 85% of the people DID NOT WANT IT, infact most of the said they switched to DirecTV and were enjoying their new HD Tivo units!

Dish screwed up (and screwed up is not a strong enough phrase to describe how much they screwed up) with the 921.

People do not want 921's! We have been sitting on a large inventory of 921's at DishStore.NET since last Thursday, they are just sitting there, no one is ordering them, I actually expected them to move much faster.

I am expecting that on next weeks Tech Chat, they are going to play up the 921 and tell us how great it is, and tell us how the 921 will soon have an exciting software upgrade to add commenly requested features. After the chat people will be on the forums all happy as they think this software upgrade is coming, then a few weeks will come and go, and people will start to question where the software is, then a few months will pass and we will have angry members still waiting for the magic upgrade.

It's all smoke and mirrors, and the Tech Chat will be a Dog and Pony show, yet they will not even have a Dog or Pony to show when all is said and done. And if you ask me, its kind of sad.
 
Scott- There is only one way I will have the 942.
1. I will have one if Dish says they will swap my 921 evenup for it. I'll even pay the shipping. Assuming it has an equal to HDTIVO performance. Otherwise why would I bother? Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice...

I doubt that will happen. From what I saw of the 942 specs you posted it is just another same old same old with a slightly different signal distribution system. If they offer it for under $400 then they may stand a chance with those who just want something cheap and are willing to forgive and forget the 921.

Frankly, I must admit 18 months ago several people warned me that the 921 would be buggy just like all the other Dish PVR's, maybe worse. I didn't believe it and I was wrong. It has become their "flagship of bugs". Dish MUST fix the 921 or the 942 will be a huge flop. But based on Dish's track record this past Spring, I wouldn't be surprised if their solution to fixing the OTA problems is to make a Dishwire type announcement. as in: " The next software release will solve all the 921's OTA problems because the 921 will no longer support OTA channels. "

Think I'm being facetiously cute? Guess again, L186 already started this OTA shut down by making it so the 921 can't receive some of the OTA channels in certain markets, those with no PSIP data. All I'm suggesting is that this may be a preview to what's in the plan. Like Dishwire, can't fix it so just remove it from the features. I think this is a prediction with remote probability.


BTW- Yes Scott- I did post it in the 921 support forum but it wasn't moved, it was deleted. I now wonder how many other posts and threads were simply deleted and why. As I said, I respect it is their house and their rules to make up as they go, I used the required protocol but didn't state the thoughts with kindness and simpathy for their inability to do their job. That was the first six months I was kind and sympathetic but I have not seen much progress so I think it is a time for CTA. And that is up to Charlie...
 
Don, the post wasn't deleted. It was moved originally without the redirect left in place, which shouldn't have happened. I haven't outright deleted a thread in the 921 forum in months.

And do you really think that users putting the pressure on Eldon is anywhere near the pressure they are getting from Dish here in Denver? It's not even in the same league.

I do apologize to you, though, that your thread was moved without the redirect link.
 
Don sorry to hear that you had problems over there, but thats how they run things, and which is why I started SatelliteGuys.

Its great for me to see people to start seeing things that I said about them when I left there, people are starting to realize that maybe I am not so nuts after all. :D

They are always quoting rules and regulations over there, but they are always re writing the rules. The funny part is even as they change and add rules the date and time of the rules always stay the same March 22nd, 2002. Yet they never let anyone know when they make these changes to their user agreement. Check out http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23 for yourself. :)

I agree 100% with what you are saying about the 921, and honestly it seems as though Dish does not give a crap, Wall Street is starting to notice, if Dish knows how many times I have been contacted over the past few months by Wall Street and places like the Wall Street Journal, they would crap their pants.

Dish needs to make changes and make them now. (Oh course how long have I been saying that)

Dish will soon realize that they do need to make changes, the stock price keeps dropping lower and lower each day and soon DirecTV is set to launch an all out attack on Dish and Cable. When I speak to my contacts they laugh and tell me that whats coming will shock Dish, they have no idea whats coming (and I have no idea as well, I am just told it is BIG)

From the sounds of things it will be interesting to watch and ultimately should benefit the consumer.
 
Hi guys! In short, I agree with everything said above...

EXCEPT: it would NOT take a year for 3-4 COMPETENT programmers to rewrite the damn software. Been there, done that, more than once, can do it again. :D

And don't even think about arguing it with me (I know the big guys above won't), because the only way you can prove me wrong is to let me try to do it. :D
 
Why limit this to just the 921, shouldn't the 811 also fall into this? Here's a box that's been out longer then the 921 and even after the latest software download this week some fixes, that you think would be simple such as the unlimited favorites or the channel recall working between OTA and DBS still are not working. But why should E* make any changes? People still are purchasing 811's and 921's and folks are posting on sites that they know the box has problems but they're hoping that E* will fix them. I just hope all those folks don't get burned and the store ends up loosing $'s on their 921's.
 
The censorship and deleting of threads for no reason is one of the reasons I quit going over there. This forum is more user friendly.

I hope they do fix the 921. If I paid $100 for a receiver I would expect the bugs to be worked out well before the first year was up.
 
Just for the record, I went back over and found the offensive thread I put that was moved. There still as of 7 PM no "moved" notice in the original section. I got my original now and post it here. The above was a recap from memory as I had no origianl copy. Here is the exact version that got deleted this morning:
__________________________________________________________________
Ask Dish: Time to stop Farting around and get serious with the 921 fix.

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Ask Dish:

OK, it's been 7 months of this nonsense of patching and tweaking, making excuses for your developer's incompetence and failing to supply features advertised such as Dishwire function. It's time now for Charlie Ergan to put this team on the chopping block and demand results. Charlie needs to appoint a new leader of DVR development who will be responsible for holding the existing team to performance deadlines. He should find new replacements to do the job if the current teams can't perform. He should be able and willing to start from scratch with a new team if necessary.

If it were true that the competition were having massive issues too then we could blame the state of the art is not mature enough for DVRs but that is not so. The competition is not having these issues, therefore it is the fault of the ability of the E* team of developers and testers are just not able to make the product they introduced work. It is time to find people that will.

_____________________________________________________________

Again, I don't begrudge Mark for what he did as it is his decision to do what ever he wants with all posts there, fair or not, it is his to decide.
 
ok, enough already. This post is going to get my account deleted here, so my hope is that at least a few people see it before Scott does.

Neil Derryberry here.

Mark didn't delete the thread... I moved it to the moderator forum for a decision on what to do with it because it definitely did not belong where it was. While I appreciate Don's frustration, we work hard to keep the area cleaned up. Don's demands would be better conveyed in some other manner.. no businessman on the face of this Earth would care about 1 man's diatribe against the way he does business on an internet forum. In fact, it would probably cost Charlie more money in staff salary to read and respond to this one thread than what the customer's remaining contract was worth. In short, demanding that Charlie fire his manager of development is a pure and simple waste of bits. That's why I moved the post, and I was mistaken for doing so. That said, if Don thinks Charlie gives or ever will give a rat's ass, he's mistaken. Don't mind me though.. feel free to beat your head against any wall you choose.. I won't stand in your way because it isn't worth my time either.

Mark Lamutt works his tail off for the entire community at large, and you guys repay him with insults.. shame on you. Scott and the mods here as well as the rest of us mods at DBSTalk do the same thing.. all for zero pay, and all anyone does is bitch about why they aren't allowed to spew forth all manner of garbage that does nothing but cause division and make the community look stupid. Shame on you too..

I'm done... really done. My hope is that Scott will overlook my username deception this one time and we can move toward burying the hatchet. I'd really like that, but I leave the decision up to him.. this is his house.
 
Unsold 921's are a bad omen for a receiver as heavily anticipated, and overbid on Ebay until just a few months ago. I am aghast at the patched state of my 921 (hardware timer daily reboot is essential because the L186 auto-reboot patch doesn't even work).
 

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