Back to Basics -- Wiring Problem?

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schnitz411

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SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
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Hi all-
I had a realization that I think explains my other problems folks have been helpful with in last two days. So apologies if they weren't really addressing the root of the problem.
I realized that I am only getting horizontal signals and that the wiring isn't right.

SYMPTOMS: can't find many frequencies that others can see, even when on right bird with full blind scanning. Scans find multiple versions of same channels and label them as both H and V

CAUSE? Wiring issue has messed up the polarity reaching the box and its getting the same thing for vertical and horizontal?

SETUP:
4 DTV moving a BUD (definetly have located many of the needed satellites)

Coolsat 7100 as receiver being mostly used.

LNB: Pat1208HA (Standard) (PAT-1208HA) on the motorized BUD

Wiring:
On the receiver end:
a quad/type wire (four cables bundled together) coming down from the roof. Outputs as follows:
1) Into LNB-IN on Coolsat
2) Into C/H on 4DTV
3) White/Red Black wires going into DTV's: Skew, 5K and GND
4) White/Red/Orange/Brown going into 4dtv as follows: White into M1, Red into M2, Orange and Brown into +5 Pulse GND

Additionally the Coolsat's LNB out goes to the K/V on the 4dtv.

I strongly suspect that somewhere in there something ain't right.

RESOLUTION?
I honestly have no idea...this is where I need help.
 
brentb636

brentb636

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 24, 2006
4,278
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5 miles N of Saugatuck, Mi
Can the 4dtv receiver be put in "standby" mode ? In a standard DVB receiver, an stb hooked up to the IF out connector can only get the polarity that is selected by the master receiver when the master receiver is turned on and in standard mode. Placing the master receiver in "standby mode" ( turning it off using the remote ), allows the slaved receiver to control the lnbs, switches and motors. Turning the master receiver off at the rear switch ( or uplugging it, removing the AC power) effectively blocks any communication from the slaved receiver.

SO , if your Coolsat is slaved to your 4dtv box, the Coolsat will only be able to use both polarities if the 4dtv unit can be "turned off" at the remote control.
Clear as mud ? I think your 4dtv is controlling the lnb voltage any time that it's turned on.
:)
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
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Feb 28, 2008
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Near Chicago, Illinois
I think he has a Servo Controlled LNB.
If it is a Servo Controlled LNB, the Coolsat can not controll the Polarity.
You can scan one polarity at a time(Horz or Vert), change channel on the 4dtv from Odd to Even or vise versa(which will change the polarity, use Channel 1 and 2) then scan the other.
Or, if the Coolsat shows when it changes from Horz to Vert, change Channels then.

Since the Coolsat can do C Band too, you should really use a Slave Kit, if you are use the 4DTV for other than moving the dish.
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
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The channel 1/channel 2 approach didn't work (tried it earlier this week) per Lak7
Also just did a blind scan of G26 with the 4dtv off (but not unplugged) per Brent's suggestion
Both had the same result: everything showed up twice with the same frequency/symbol rate but with different polarities. For example I get Federal Judicary on 11904 H and 11904 V....since its really an horizontal polarity...the problem would appear to be in there.

I have absolutely no need to use the 4dtv for any purpose other then moving the dish. Sorry to be dense. Given that I want to use the Coolsat for all the viewing, does that mean I should get a slave kit or not?
The other question is, since I am interested in almost exclusively Ku, should I just ditch the entire BUD and 4dtv and get a new smaller dish/motor setup connected directly to the Coolsat and avoid all of these complications? For a few hundred bucks, probably worth it?
 
brentb636

brentb636

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 24, 2006
4,278
6
5 miles N of Saugatuck, Mi
The channel 1/channel 2 approach didn't work (tried it earlier this week) per Lak7
Also just did a blind scan of G26 with the 4dtv off (but not unplugged) per Brent's suggestion
Both had the same result: everything showed up twice with the same frequency/symbol rate but with different polarities. For example I get Federal Judicary on 11904 H and 11904 V....since its really an horizontal polarity...the problem would appear to be in there.

I have absolutely no need to use the 4dtv for any purpose other then moving the dish. Sorry to be dense. Given that I want to use the Coolsat for all the viewing, does that mean I should get a slave kit or not?
The other question is, since I am interested in almost exclusively Ku, should I just ditch the entire BUD and 4dtv and get a new smaller dish/motor setup connected directly to the Coolsat and avoid all of these complications? For a few hundred bucks, probably worth it?

I'd hate to see you ditch the BUD, even if you just keep it around for occasional playing. I wish I had one, and if I did, I'd be a lot smarter ! :)

And be having even MORE fun !
:)
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
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Feb 28, 2008
5,451
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Near Chicago, Illinois
Have you ever set up the 4DTV completely?

Also, don't dump the BUD, it is not as easy as a Ku only, but it's worth it.
To me it seems most of the HD stuff is C Band, so when you Upgrade to HD,you'll already have the dish.
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
45
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Lak7: When you ask about changing hte polarity on 4dtv:
1) I did the channel changing routine with it on and that was unsucesfful
2) with the turning it off approach, I didn't mess with the channel at all oin 4dtv. Just turned it off and did the scan on coolsat.

About "setting it up completely." I think so is the answer.
We know we had the LNB setting right (standard, not universal). The finding the sat was all on the 4dtv side. Not sure what else there is to set? Also did a clean flash back to the factory install this afternoon for the heck of it -- same behavior.
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Feb 28, 2008
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Near Chicago, Illinois
You need to adjust the Shew setting in the 4DTV receiver, each Sat has it's own setting. It is not like a Ku LNBF where it is just Horz or Vert. I haven't used a 4DTV in a while, so I'm not too much help. If I were you, I would down load the manual for a 4DTV, install instructions, and get that set up as if you were going to subscribe. Learn how it all works.
If you have problems, start a new Topic on a Newbie Setting up a 4DTV receiver from scratch. You will attract more helpfull people. The 4DTV is not as user friendly a FTA receivers, but when you know how to operate one you will hae a good grasp of all FTA stuff.
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
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Hmmm. On the face of it I'm not sure that's the skew is issue since I know I am on the sat from feeds I can find but will check it out.
 
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Lak7

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Feb 28, 2008
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Near Chicago, Illinois
How about this. Can you go to a Sat, Lock a feed with the Coolsat. Then while watching it, change channels on the 4DTV and still watch it. If so your Servo Motor is not working, or the Horz and Vert Skew numbers are at the same setting.
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
45
0
Much of the time I can change channels on 4dtv with absolutely no effect on whatever I am watching on coolsat. This is for sure true on g26 which has been most of my focus. However on a few of the sats it does make a difference.
If servo moter is broken, that's not the box but up on the mount?
The horz and vert skew thing makes sense but isn't the case. In the sat setup menu on 4dtv I can see what they are and its 90 and 0 or vice versa usually.
 
voomvoom

voomvoom

SatelliteGuys Master
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May 18, 2004
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Lizella, Georgia Republic
In the sat setup menu on 4dtv I can see what they are and its 90 and 0 or vice versa usually.
This may be your problem. That ninety may be not enough to change right? Mine is on 45 or -45, or vice versa....?

Ooops... forgot to say, you may need to adjust the skew about 45 dergrees....???
By turning the feedhorn 45 degrees... and re-adjusting the values to read 45 or -45, or vice versa...
Or to whatever gets you the best Quality reading...
 
SatelliteAV

SatelliteAV

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Sep 3, 2004
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Roseville, CA
Have you thought about changing out the current LNB with the polarity servo to a LNBF so the Coolsat 7100 could control the polarity and the 4DTV would only move the dish actuator?
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
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Feb 28, 2008
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Near Chicago, Illinois
The Servo Motor is the Little Blue Box on the Feedhorn(mount)
If it is set at 90 & 0, that IS you problem. As Voom said, his are at 45 & -45, that give him the widest amount of adjustment. You may need to adjust the entire Feedhorn, then in the 4DTV set skew to peak sig. That is easiest done by pointing to G15 @ 133west and peak to the HBO channels. Maybe even a master reset on the 4DTV.

IF you don't want to go that route, you could do as SatelliteAV suggests. You could buy a Voltage Controlled LNBF(BSC621 for example) and a VBox or GBox Dish Positioner. Then sell your 4DTV and current Feedhorn and LNBs to pay for the upgrades. This way you would control the entire setup for the Coolsat. I started where you are now, complete 4DTV subscription and all. And if you look at my Sig Line, I ended you where SatAV suggests. I am glad to have gone through the entire process.
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
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Very helpful. Heading out of town for the day but will look into this in more detail latrer in the weekend.
Seems like step 1 is going up to the dish and seeing if the servo/feedhorn needs to be moved around. If so easy enough and a short term solution.
But if I'm understanding the other suggestion from Lak7 and Satellite AV, together with a quick look at some retailers, if I replace the LNB with an LNBF and add a positioner I can still use the BUD and get C-band but control the entire operation from the coolsat? Seems like this only runs a few hundred bucks at most (75 or so for a positioner and 50ish for an lnbf), which isn't out of reach\ and would vastly improve life. Sounds like things will work pretty well that way.
Two questions for the moment
1) So the positioner is slaved to the coolsat and i basically only have to deal with the one box?

2) Given my existing cabling (I don't want to rerun the cabling up to the roof-- big mess), would the LNBF/mover approach use the same wiring? What I have coming down is the 4 part cable -- 2 of them power-stuff and 2 of them a coax-type feed?
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
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Feb 28, 2008
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Near Chicago, Illinois
1) All the wires from the 4DTV are connected to the Positioner, execept for the servo wires(skew). The Positioner takes DiSEqC 1.2 position commands from the Coolsat and translates them for the Actuator. You still have to manually program the Sat positions, one at a time.

2) No new cables, the LNBF Skew is Voltage controlled from the Coolsat through the coax, and the LNBF has a built in switch to go from C to Ku. From the Positioner you will have the Actuator Power cables and Pulse wires.


Receiver------coax--------Positioner------------coax---------------Built-In switch----------------C Band
..............................................\................................................................\-----------------Ku Band
...............................................\
................................................\------------------------------"other wires"-----------------------Actuator
 
Last edited:
voomvoom

voomvoom

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May 18, 2004
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Lizella, Georgia Republic
if I replace the LNB with an LNBF and add a positioner I can still use the BUD and get C-band but control the entire operation from the coolsat?
Yes, but only if you get/have both? You will be able to control the polarity only on an lnbf with the Coolsat. Or, you can control an Actuator, if (and only if) you get a V-Box type positioner, which the Coolsat can operate.
1) So the positioner is slaved to the coolsat and i basically only have to deal with the one box?
In a manner of speaking, if you add a V-Box type positioner, you could take the analog receiver out of the picture if you desire?

2) Given my existing cabling (I don't want to rerun the cabling up to the roof-- big mess), would the LNBF/mover approach use the same wiring? What I have coming down is the 4 part cable -- 2 of them power-stuff and 2 of them a coax-type feed?
That cabling should work fine, unless it's old enough, that it has RG59 cable and not RG6 cable? I have some old ribbon cable that has one RG6 cable and one RG59 cable, along with the other wiring, it's not acceptable (to me) unless I use it with only the one RG6 cable being used. Of the 4 different cables, the one with 3 wires (for the servo motor) is the one you would not use, most likely?
 
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schnitz411

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
May 22, 2008
45
0
OK did some more testing this morning. On G26 on the 4dtv on both channel 1 and channel 2 it autopeaks on h55/v90.
On Channel 1 I can go to the coolsat and get a feed I beliueve is really horizonal (11903 H 3975 (currently an emnpty podium in front of TX courthouse).
If I switch to channel 2 I lose the coolsat signal on this particular feed

But there are two other feeds I get regardless of Channel 1 or Channel 2 on 4dtv:
11982 V 3974 (which I kinda thing is actually a Horizontal).
11747 H 3008


Bottom line its still very screwy. Just gonna buy new stuff I think. Not convinced this will ever sort out properly and be close to easy to use.
 
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