Broadband in a Box INTRO

[broadbandinabox]

[FONT=&quot]Hello Rural Broadband Folks.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]My name is Thomas. I joined this MB as an ambassador for DVB-S2 Hybrid SW-Modem technology which is helping many rural communities not passed by terrestrial broadband, connect to high speed Internet via hybrid satellite technologies.. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There are numerous postings regarding DVB-S2 Hybrid SW-Modem technology and our retail partner, SkyWay USA here. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I would like to do my part helping answering any and all questions and talk about what has been my passion for the last 8 years.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I can help. I am also an impartial voice. I am not an employee of SkyWay USA. I will my best to get you answers to your questions. I will help direct you to their right billing, customer service, technical support, etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why? Because it is my business to make sure this technology thrives and that every concern is handled in the best possible way. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I have had a part in the DVB modem (with Dial-up Return) launch in the U.S. since 2001. I have been a part of it since our start on SatMex-6 all those years ago. Before that I installed my first DirecPC in 1996. My first Pegasus Express in 2000. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When I installed my first DVB modem (with Dial-up Return) in 2001 I was instantly hooked. How can I forget, it happened on 9/11. What a way to start huh? Remember, this was the days of the PCI Modems that only worked with Windows. They tried to call it a Plug & Play modem. I fondly remember calling it a Plug & Pray modem! Things have come a long way since then. As has the Internet and computing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’m almost too excited about the new DVB-S2 Hybrid SW-Modem series more than anything. They work with Mac and Linux machines as well as Windows (Vista too). It’s so easy to install that SkyWay USA just had a 68 year old GRANDMOTHER install one all by herself. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]IMO my involvement here can only help this community. If you have a questions or concerns regarding your SkyWay USA services or any other DVB-S2 provider, please let me know. Call me. Shoot me an e-mail and I will do my best to help. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I will do my best to get you all the information that you are looking for in a timely basis. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I look forward to joining this community; you all look like a great group of very passionate folks.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thomas William[/FONT]
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[broadbandinabox]

I hate to muck up a good MB with newbie q's so I'm gonna use this old thread.

1) Do you recommend the paid registration? Is there good traffic, threads and ideas thrown around there? Good networking, etc.

I'm sure I'll think of some other Q's here for too long.

Thanks in advance.

 

[grohgreg]

I can think of one BIG question. In this day and age, why would anybody WANT a dial-return satellite connection - when two way satellite connections can in some cases be cheaper?

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

Off the top of my head:

Certification: Is not required
Installation time: 1 hour average
Latency: 300ms average
Upload speed: up to 50Kbps
Hardware cost: $49
Monthly: starts at $29.95
Rain fade: NEVER
Redundancy: Included
Contract: No contract required unless per partner (i.e. SkyWay USA has a 1 year)
Maintenance: LNBF $10 + shipping

Since reports tell us that rural Internet options are going to be satellite ONLY for 15+ MILLION over the next 7-15 years, I am all about ease of installation and maintenance. Our LNBF is $10.00 + shipping. What's a typical one cost for a 2way system? Several hundred dollars I assume + trip charge + labor.

 

[digiblur]

Rain fade Never? Not unless it is CBand.

 

[broadbandinabox]

If the satellite signal is ever disrupted, the hybrid modem reverts back to synchronous dial-up. When it returns it reverts back to satellite.

 

[digiblur]

If the satellite signal is ever disrupted, the hybrid modem reverts back to synchronous dial-up. When it returns it reverts back to satellite.

But then it's no longer broadband

 

[broadbandinabox]

Upload speeds

I am not a 2way guy. After my first Pegasus Express installation I quit 2way period, over 9 years ago. I could not see 3+ hour installations being a feasible way to make any money. I was always looking to get in and out in the most cost effective way while still maintaining QC, great customer service/friendship with the customer so I could work referralls which is still my bread and butter in this business.

Any way, I am wondering what 'burstable' up to 128Kbps REALLY means?

When I see a report like below, I question why anyone would pay for such expensive, high maintenance equipment which in many cases offers LESS speed than a PSTN line?

__________________________________________
From satcomms.info:
25kbps Maximum burst E-mail upload[FONT=&quot] [source: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]www.satcomms.info/internet_info/Tooway_Customer_Info_PL.pdf[/FONT][FONT=&quot]][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]_________________________________________________________________________________________________
[/FONT]​

​

 

[broadbandinabox]

Its still a redundant Internet connection that is never disrupted by rain fade.

 

[grohgreg]

Certification: Is not required and how is that a GOOD thing?
Installation time: 1 hour average not if it's done right
Latency: 300ms average only because of the single hop. the speed of light doesn't change just because you're installing one-way
Upload speed: up to 50Kbps dead wrong. V92 modems are only capable of up to 44k
Hardware cost: $49 so what? standard two-way hardware costs are often free
Monthly: starts at $29.95 not if you count the cost of the 2nd phone line
Rain fade: NEVER now I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about
Redundancy: Included sure, if you consider dial-up performance in BOTH directions equitable "redundancy" to what's being touted as "broadband".
Contract: No contract required unless per partner (i.e. SkyWay USA has a 1 year) anybody beside me smell someting here?
Maintenance: LNBF $10 + shipping again, I don't really think you understand what you're talking about

Since reports tell us that rural Internet options are going to be satellite ONLY for 15+ MILLION over the next 7-15 years, I am all about ease of installation and maintenance. Our LNBF is $10.00 + shipping. What's a typical one cost for a 2way system? Several hundred dollars I assume + trip charge + labor. A $10 LNB? Scary. All I can say sport, is CAVEAT EMPTOR. Folks who believe the hype, usually end up disappointed. Do you feel qualified to join a professional discussion comparing performance characteristics of consumer grade Ku-band Chinese versus Japanese versus Korean LNBs? It might put your $10 LNB in a whole new perspective.

I am not a 2way guy...Any way, I am wondering what 'burstable' up to 128Kbps REALLY means? With a question like that, it's clear why you're "not a 2way guy". The short answer is that it means you're using a dated argument. I doubt you're actually interested in the real answer, but I can provide one - should you really even care. And it's an answer that can be backed up by 36 years experience in the two-way satellite telecommunications field. You're never ever going to convince the real pros in this field that 1-way satellite internet connections represent a comparably viable product.

Its still a redundant Internet connection. Sure, but you're playing word games. Marketing hype. Another indication that you really don't understand this field. A truly redundant communications path assumes the same properties as of that which it backs up. Properties like throughput speed for example. Whereas you may legitimately describe yours as an alternate/backup mode, two-way dial-up simply does not qualify as a redundant (satellite) connection. Period.

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

Greg, you mention word games. Hmmm? It sounds like its going 2way(s) here now.

 

[grohgreg]

Greg, you mention word games. Hmmm? It sounds like its going 2way(s) here now.

Yup. I suspected this up front. But now I'm sure you've got no interest in how this stuff really works. You've got a product to sell, and will say whatever it takes to unload it on an unsuspecting public.

Look, I'm usually the first one in line to help out a fellow satcommer. It's what I do. But you opened up here with both guns blazing against fellow satcommers - the guys that sell/install/maintain - and yes - even understand two way. So first - make a conscious effort to actually learn a little about what you perceive as "the competition". Then tone down the rhetoric. Since 2-way systems currently outnumber 1-way by a factor of more than 100 to 1, you WILL run into other folks who actually have a working knowledge in this field.

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

Greg, I just listed our benefits and did not act like I knew anything about 2way satellite communications because I don't. My last experience with it was close to 9 yeras ago. If there was anything that I said that was taken as a slam/knock against you or any of the other satcomers (I like that term BTW), that was not my intention. I take it ALL back. I AM VERY interested in learning so please help me understand and explain 'burstable for me. I am familiar in TDMA technology and think its brilliant. Let me end with this...I do not believe that there is an end all be all rural high speed Internet solution. I do believe that anyone who offers 2way, WiFi, etc. can also benefit from our solution.

Can we start over here?

Respect = Respect.

 

[grohgreg]

Greg, I just listed our benefits and did not act like I knew anything about 2way satellite communications because I don't.

It read more like an advertising brochure, which doesn't go a long way in suggesting that you actually understand SkyWay either. When you run into a customer who's so far off the grid that there are no telephone lines, do you try to sell him one-way? or does two-way suddenly look more realistic? How many minutes a month do you think my 2-way Hughes connection is down due to rain fade? To whom is DBV-S2 "more efficient"- the provider or the customer? How many of those great "MPEG-4 videos" can a customer download before the RUP throttle kicks in? Why can my 2-way system upload nearly as fast as your $29.95 plan can download?

Anyway, burstable. Hughes used to use that word in advertising years ago, they've since abandoned it. But the concept is very real - your SkyWay uses it too. Matter of fact so does dialup, except that dialup is dedicated - and consumer satcom is shared. Let's start with a v92 dialup. It has design capabilities of 44k send and 53k receive. Dedicated bandwidth. Yet line conditions can be such where it often runs at only a fraction of that speed. It may speed up, it may slow down. On a good day, you can say it "burst" up to design speed. Satcom performs similarly, except it's shared bandwidth. The available bandwidth is fixed. But the number of customers using it isn't. So the more customers online simultaneously, the less of that bandwidth each customer gets to use. When some drop off, others hop on. To get as much out of their time slots as possible, their data passes in bursts. These bursts will be at or near the advertised speed. But since there are gaps between the bursts, the average speed will be slower than the burst speed. The more customers that are online, the bigger the gaps between bursts. Install a two-way throughput monitor on your computer, you'll see what I mean. Anyway - Hughes customers got wise to the average part, and pitched a bitch about the "burst" advertising. Hughes dropped it.

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

My replies in BLUE

Certification: Is not required and how is that a GOOD thing? I guess that is a judgment call but yeah, there are 15+ Million homes and businesses that cannot get terrestrial high speed Internet. Our solution helps anyone who is a DIY'er save the cost of installation + not have to worry about a long-term contract or lease.

Installation time: 1 hour average not if it's done right We keep installation times low because we walk folks through everything (mounting, tuning, grounding, etc.) via our partners being on the phone with their customers and our ability to Telnet into their modems during setup.

Latency: 300ms average only because of the single hop. the speed of light doesn't change just because you're installing one-way I've actually seen ping rate below 200ms but we're talking averages here.

Upload speed: up to 50Kbps dead wrong. V92 modems are only capable of up to 44k. Hmmm? I could have sworn that the Feds limit copper to 50k even though 56k+ modems are capable of more. Let me do some testing/research here and get back to you.

Hardware cost: $49 so what? standard two-way hardware costs are often free This price does include a 1 year agreement as well as a rebate from the providers. Our hardware with self installation kits which include everything (SkyBeeper, level, compass, 100 feet of coax, etc.) needed to install are sub $300. The only tools you need are a wrench/socket, screwdriver and drill.

Monthly: starts at $29.95 not if you count the cost of the 2nd phone line I have never recommended getting a second phone to anyone. Telco's are actually giving away 2nd lines for FREE these days if you ask them nicely. BTW copper offers rural folks a stable, reliable telephone line VS. rural cellular service.

Rain fade: NEVER now I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about Customers on our solution never lose connection to the Internet because if the satellite signal is lost due to rain fade our modem 'auto-magically' switches to terrestrial-only. Do you have a better way to say it?

Redundancy: Included sure, if you consider dial-up performance in BOTH directions equitable "redundancy" to what's being touted as "broadband". In Rain Fade situations with a 2way service you've lost your connection completely, correct?. If you want to have a backup dialup account, say if you travel, you have to pay for it, correct? In our situation we NEVER lose our Internet connection because of the stable terrestrial dialup link.

Contract: No contract required unless per partner (i.e. SkyWay USA has a 1 year) anybody beside me smell someting here? My wholesale agreement on AMC-15 has no customer expectations or limits. You can install a customer today, deactivate him/her tomorrow and install the same hardware at another location without me getting upset or charging you 'back'. Nothing 'fishy' here at all. All I do is wholesale hardware and satellite capacity. Please explain what you 'smell'?

Maintenance: LNBF $10 + shipping again, I don't really think you understand what you're talking about. That's my wholesale rate for our LNBF. What's typical S/R LNB cost?

Since reports tell us that rural Internet options are going to be satellite ONLY for 15+ MILLION over the next 7-15 years, I am all about ease of installation and maintenance. Our LNBF is $10.00 + shipping. What's a typical one cost for a 2way system? Several hundred dollars I assume + trip charge + labor. A $10 LNB? Scary. All I can say sport, is CAVEAT EMPTOR. Folks who believe the hype, usually end up disappointed. Do you feel qualified to join a professional discussion comparing performance characteristics of consumer grade Ku-band Chinese versus Japanese versus Korean LNBs? It might put your $10 LNB in a whole new perspective. I would love to join the discussion. Do you mind if I invite our CTO?

I am not a 2way guy...Any way, I am wondering what 'burstable' up to 128Kbps REALLY means? With a question like that, it's clear why you're "not a 2way guy". The short answer is that it means you're using a dated argument. I doubt you're actually interested in the real answer, but I can provide one - should you really even care. And it's an answer that can be backed up by 36 years experience in the two-way satellite telecommunications field. You're never ever going to convince the real pros in this field that 1-way satellite internet connections represent a comparably viable product. I agree am in the minority. I respect that you have more 18 more years experience at this than I do and I look forward to continued discussions with you Greg. I also know that there are 10,000+ people here in the U.S. that do not care how our technology works, they just know that our technology works, consistently. Add the rest of the world and I'm guessing we can add another couple 100K to the equation.

Its still a redundant Internet connection. Sure, but you're playing word games. Marketing hype. Another indication that you really don't understand this field. A truly redundant communications path assumes the same properties as of that which it backs up. Properties like throughput speed for example. Whereas you may legitimately describe yours as an alternate/backup mode, two-way dial-up simply does not qualify as a redundant (satellite) connection. Period. Maybe 'redundant' is not the right word here. What would you suggest?

Best regards and thank you Greg...

Thomas-

//greg//

 

[grohgreg]

Let me save you the trouble: v34 modems are 33.6k both directions. v90 modems are 33.6k send/56k receive (Fed limited to 53k). v92 modems are 44k send/56k receive (Fed limited to 53k). That's why your 1-way will never send faster than 44k

It's up to a few thousand miles on phone line for your PING to get to your NOC. It's then ~22,300 miles from the NOC to the satellite. Same distance back down to you. But since very few customers and NOCs are situated on the equator, the space segment is actually longer in practice (Pythagorean theorum). Regardless, divide 44,600 into the speed of light, and you get ~240ms. Add a couple dozen ms for the phone line. Then tell me again you've seen sub-200ms PING returns.

When the satellite path is not detected, your modem simply resorts to it's fallback mode - full dialup. Nothing magic - or even new - about it whatsoever. The old DirecPC (PCI, USB) and Direcway modems (DW3000, DW40x0 did the same thing). Business and Enterprise versions of their subsequent self-hosted modems still offer the same fallback capability.

Interesting that now your $10 is all of a sudden the wholesale cost. So how much do you actually stick the customer for'em? More to the point though - you do know that a LNB is a receive-only device, right? So it could really care less whether it's on a 1-way system, or on a 2-way. But either way, I simply could NOT trust a $10 LNB - it must be noisy as hell. Now the full dialup fallback mode makes more sense.

I guess the 1-way population is smaller than I thought. And it's comparatively less common outside America by the way. Reason? Terrestrial telephone infrastructures. 1-way is useless in the absence of phone jack. It's also one of the reasons why are proportionately more Internet Cafes in 3rd world nations.

By all means, invite the CTO

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

Thank you for that full explanation on modem technologies. i never knew that. I do know what I've seen regarding our sub-200ms latency, I actually have a report from a third party evaluation that has it listed, I will find it later this morning.

We aim to keep our solution AFFORDABLE for the long run. Our $10.00 LNB's [EDIT], while possibly 'noisy as hell' as you say, work well!

How much did you say a S/R LNB costs again?

 

[grohgreg]

. Our $10.00 RETAIL modems, while possibly 'noisy as hell' as you say, work well!

How much did you say a S/R LNB costs again?

This is getting ridiculous. How did your $10 LNB suddenly morph into a $10 modem? And what did you not understand about the LNB being a receive-only device? I think this might be time to respectfully suggest that you consider another line of work.

//greg//

 

[broadbandinabox]

Calm down. I made a mistake - edited it. Move on.

It's been nice chatting with you regarding our differences in opinion / experience.

 

[grohgreg]

Calm down. I made a mistake - edited it. Move on.

Well I would, but it seems you still believe that a LNB can transmit. You've used the phrase S/R LNB at least three times now. That can't be a mistake. I don't want to edit the word respectfully out of my previous post, but I will once again suggest that you consider another line of work.

//greg//