Ciel-2 Now Scheduled for November?

[HDRoberts]

Does anyone know where the future E*14 and E*15 are supposed to go when they are launched in '09 and '10?

E14 is headed to 119. I'm not sure if it's supplementing or replacing E7. E15 hasn't been announced. Given that it was ordered right after the AMC14 failure, though, I'd bet its an E3 replacement.

Anyone know who Dish has signed with to launch these satellites? ILS, Sea Launch, Arianespace, someone else? I've yet to see E14 show on a schedule.

 

[mike123abc]

The only real restriction is that 1/2 the TPs have to be available for Canada's use. They could use 16 for the US, and 16 for Canada. But, there is nothing saying that the 16 for Canada cannot be regional beams that just hit Canada and do not hit the US. Then the 16 TPs could be used over again in the US as spot beams. This way Canada gets 16 TPs and the US gets 16 national plus up to 16 spot TPs to use over and over in spots for locals.

Also they are allowed to lease more to the US if no one in Canada wants them. 129 is somewhat limited for Canada since the slot is too far West for the Eastern part of Canada.

So it could be possible that lets say 16 TP frequencies are used in the spots over and over again in the US, then the same 16 TP frequencies cover Canada in a regional beam. The other 16 TPs cover both Canada and the US and are leased to Dish. Dish gets use of all 32 TPs, and Canada gets access to 16.

 

[M Sparks]

The only real restriction is that 1/2 the TPs have to be available for Canada's use. They could use 16 for the US, and 16 for Canada. But, there is nothing saying that the 16 for Canada cannot be regional beams that just hit Canada and do not hit the US. Then the 16 TPs could be used over again in the US as spot beams. This way Canada gets 16 TPs and the US gets 16 national plus up to 16 spot TPs to use over and over in spots for locals.

Interesting. I'd like to see the math/physics/legalities on that. For example, if they focused one spot beam from TP1 on British Columbia,, one spot beam from TP2 on Alberta, ect. on up to 16, would that satisfy the Canadian requirements? Could they then focus the other 112 spot beams on the US, and still allow DISH to use 16 CONUS beams?

Also they are allowed to lease more to the US if no one in Canada wants them. 129 is somewhat limited for Canada since the slot is too far West for the Eastern part of Canada.

So it could be possible that lets say 16 TP frequencies are used in the spots over and over again in the US, then the same 16 TP frequencies cover Canada in a regional beam. The other 16 TPs cover both Canada and the US and are leased to Dish. Dish gets use of all 32 TPs, and Canada gets access to 16.

This whole 16 Canadian TPs might be a red herring. The way it is worded, they must make 16 available to Canada UP UNTIL THE LAUNCH. The question is, who would want them?

Apparently, this bird would only really be of any use to BEV. Using it for BEV would require a second dish. BEV also wouldn't seem to have much use for spot beaming, since they sell ALL the regional channels to EVERYONE as part of their basic package. Oddly, the only thing that is separated up there are the movie channels...one channel only serves eastern Canada, and the other only serves western Canada.

BEV is leasing 16 of their 72.5 TPs on NIMIQ-5 to DISH. Does anyone know if it can be configured similarly to Ciel-2? It seems like we could be headed for a situation where 72.5 and 129 might be identical (except for locals), with each serving half of the US AND half of Canada.

I've read some speculation on a Canadian forum that they could even be looking at sharing some of the space for US channels that are available in Canada. Like, CNN-HD, CNBC-HD, TLC-HD, History HD, Bio-HD, Nat-Geo HD, Golf- HD, Animal Planet-HD, A&E-HD all could be shared with BEV. But I don't know enough about satellite design to know if they can hit half the US and half Canada in the same footprint.

 

[digiblur]

I'm not sure of the wording but isn't BEV leasing their space on the Nimiq birds?

 

[rocatman]

Interesting. I'd like to see the math/physics/legalities on that. For example, if they focused one spot beam from TP1 on British Columbia,, one spot beam from TP2 on Alberta, ect. on up to 16, would that satisfy the Canadian requirements? Could they then focus the other 112 spot beams on the US, and still allow DISH to use 16 CONUS beams?




This whole 16 Canadian TPs might be a red herring. The way it is worded, they must make 16 available to Canada UP UNTIL THE LAUNCH. The question is, who would want them?

Apparently, this bird would only really be of any use to BEV. Using it for BEV would require a second dish. BEV also wouldn't seem to have much use for spot beaming, since they sell ALL the regional channels to EVERYONE as part of their basic package. Oddly, the only thing that is separated up there are the movie channels...one channel only serves eastern Canada, and the other only serves western Canada.

BEV is leasing 16 of their 72.5 TPs on NIMIQ-5 to DISH. Does anyone know if it can be configured similarly to Ciel-2? It seems like we could be headed for a situation where 72.5 and 129 might be identical (except for locals), with each serving half of the US AND half of Canada.

I've read some speculation on a Canadian forum that they could even be looking at sharing some of the space for US channels that are available in Canada. Like, CNN-HD, CNBC-HD, TLC-HD, History HD, Bio-HD, Nat-Geo HD, Golf- HD, Animal Planet-HD, A&E-HD all could be shared with BEV. But I don't know enough about satellite design to know if they can hit half the US and half Canada in the same footprint.

The idea of Dish and BEV sharing TPs with common channels is definitely a possibility but let me add some information and answer some of your questions. Initially Dish will use E-6 at 72.7 W (72.5 W) with 11 CONUS TPs. Nimiq 5 is the scheduled new satellite to go to 72.7 W and it is scheduled for launch on a Proton in the second half of 2009. It has been reported that it has no spotbeams, only CONUS/Canada beams.

There is no doubt that a satellite could be configured such that it could provide signals to the western 2/3rds of the U.S. and the western 2/3rds of Canada. One only has to look at signal pattern of the E-11 satellite which covers the entire CONUS and Alaska.

I had mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread but the successful launch of the Nimiq 4 satellite on a Proton in the fall of 2008 to the 82 W Canadian DBS slot could impact the possible BEV/Dish TP sharing at 129 W.

 

[rocatman]

I'm not sure of the wording but isn't BEV leasing their space on the Nimiq birds?

Yes. Telesat owns all the Nimiq satellites. The exception might be the satellites that were former DirecTV satellites that were given Nimiq names. Not sure if they were leased or bought from DirecTV.

 

[nelson61]

Yes. Telesat owns all the Nimiq satellites. The exception might be the satellites that were former DirecTV satellites that were given Nimiq names. Not sure if they were leased or bought from DirecTV.

Best link for info on Telesat is probably the Loral web site and their 10K's since they are a major shareholde of Telesat. The bankruptcy, reorganization, and business relationships are explained in detail with the satellite fleet is on page 6 of their latest 10K.

Loral Space & Communications Ltd. - Annual Report

 

[M Sparks]

I'm not sure of the wording but isn't BEV leasing their space on the Nimiq birds?

Yeah, I guess they would have to. I worded that wrong. Maybe it's more correct to say that they gave up their option on the TPs to DISH? I'm pretty sure some kind of deal was struck between them...something about BEV getting ultra cheap prices on MPEG-4 equipment from Echostar.

EDIT...It's worded that way on the Nimiq Wikipedia page...

"Bell ExpressVu will use half of the satellite to provide a wide range of high-definition and specialty television services to its subscribers, and lease the other half of the satellite to Dish Network."

 

[M Sparks]

Best link for info on Telesat is probably the Loral web site and their 10K's since they are a major shareholde of Telesat. The bankruptcy, reorganization, and business relationships are explained in detail with the satellite fleet is on page 6 of their latest 10K.

Loral Space & Communications Ltd. - Annual Report

AHHH...Bell USED to own Telesat up until last fall.

Those references to BEV leasing transponders to DISH would have been somewhat more accurate before the Telesat sale to Loral.

 

[M Sparks]

The idea of Dish and BEV sharing TPs with common channels is definitely a possibility but let me add some information and answer some of your questions. Initially Dish will use E-6 at 72.7 W (72.5 W) with 11 CONUS TPs. Nimiq 5 is the scheduled new satellite to go to 72.7 W and it is scheduled for launch on a Proton in the second half of 2009. It has been reported that it has no spotbeams, only CONUS/Canada beams.

There is no doubt that a satellite could be configured such that it could provide signals to the western 2/3rds of the U.S. and the western 2/3rds of Canada. One only has to look at signal pattern of the E-11 satellite which covers the entire CONUS and Alaska.

I had mentioned this in an earlier post in this thread but the successful launch of the Nimiq 4 satellite on a Proton in the fall of 2008 to the 82 W Canadian DBS slot could impact the possible BEV/Dish TP sharing at 129 W.

Good info here. Besides the topics we were talking about, I've asked about E-XI quite a few times elsewhere and never gotten any good information. If it covers Alaska, that allows them to empty out some spot beams, correct? Aren't they using 3 or more spots to get HD to Alaska?

 

[Fitzie]

From looking at the links posted by nelson1 I noted that Ciel-2 has 145 spot beams designated as available for the US. That's a lot of spot beams.

fitzie

 

[mike123abc]

From looking at the links posted by nelson1 I noted that Ciel-2 has 145 spot beams designated as available for the US. That's a lot of spot beams.

fitzie

Hopefully around launch time we will see some filings as to where these spots are going (and the non spot TPs).

 

[kstuart]

From looking at the links posted by nelson1 I noted that Ciel-2 has 145 spot beams designated as available for the US. That's a lot of spot beams.

Don't forget that by Feb 2012, Dish must carry all of the locals in HD in any market that they carry locals, by order of the FCC.

 

[long_time_DNC]

I thought it was all locals in digital, not necessarily HD?

A Seattle local did a test of shutting of their analog signal one night last week and a bunch of sat and cable subs that weren't supposed to lose signal lost it...oops! Um, a few more bugs to work out...

I'm thinking the digital transition is going to be the "mellenium bug" of 2009...

 

[nelson61]

SES is a significant shareholder in Ciel and still shows the launch in first quarter 09.

SES - Upcoming launches

 

[jansan]

Check out their press releases at the same site. Launch page has not been updated. SES is bad about updating their website.

Source: SES - Latest News Dated 07/09/08

 

[HDRoberts]

Yep, I believe their own Astra 1M sat has been moved off of Proton to Ariane 5 at an earlier date, but it still shows 4Q2008. It seem that has opened the earlier slot.

Interesting them developing Ka at 109.2. Will we see Dish make use of this as this is next to one of their core locations (like Directv at 99 and 103). Also, it looks like Direct wont be seeing BSS at 103 as the Canadians are taking this (unless they get a Dish-like arrangement).

 

[nelson61]

Check out their press releases at the same site. Launch page has not been updated. SES is bad about updating their website.

Source: SES - Latest News Dated 07/09/08

/quote]

Excellent! A 4th quarter launch confirmation from the horses mouth.

 

[nelson61]

Things are moving along. SES Americom has filed application for a new earth station site to communicate with various satellites and has named the site - VVES CIEL-2.

SES-LIC-20080708-00909

 

[Bradtothebone]

August Proton Flight Delayed

From Spaceflight Now (updated August 4,emphasis mine):

"An International Launch Services Proton rocket with a Breeze M upper stage will deploy the Inmarsat 4-F3 mobile communications spacecraft. This is the third of three next-generation satellites in the Inmarsat 4-series. The launch will mark the return-to-flight for ILS and the Proton/Breeze M following the March failure. Delayed from Aug. 13 to replace and retest the flight computer on the Breeze M upper stage. "

Sounds like we may be slipping into December with Ciel 2.

Brad