Dish copy protection

[skottey]

For AT LEAST the last three years I have been archiving my Bright House Network DVR recordings, live programming, premium channel programming and many movies on HBO, Showtime, and Cinemax ON Demand channels. I have never shared these recordings with anybody, just kept them in a binder for my own viewing later on. I've never had a problem recording cable.

According to HBO's website (which I found today researching the problem with Dish I am about to write about), it is OK to make a single copy of HBO and Cinemax programming and they say they don't allow you a copy of HBO or Cinemax On Demand. This is all news to me and up until about two or three months ago I was recording a lot. I just haven't recorded anything in the last few months. They say there is no need to "time shift" the On Demand material since the nature of On Demand is to watch it on your schedule, therefore they have disabled it (worked for me last time I checked). Yes HBO, there is a reason, and that reason is that you have an end date for programs on demand. If I don't have time to watch a show before August 25th and it ends August 25th on demand, I am SOL unless I record it. That is not permitted. But anyway... I am getting off my own topic.

The point I of this thread is that I have been recording everything except PPV on my BHN DVR for literally years. I now subscribe to Dish too (for about 5 months). I have never, until today, attempted to record anything from the 622 DVR unto my DVD recorder. But today I realized that the Monsters HD recordings of four Hellraiser movies and six Children of the Corn movies were about exhausting my storage space. I figured I would just start the recording and get a few of them onto DVD (yes I know they'd be standard def and not HD, but I don't care since my box was about full). I thought I would go back every two hours and change blank DVD-Rs and start recording the next film while I worked from home, freeing up space on my 622. I am way too busy to sit through any of these movies right now, and thought I'd set them aside for a rainy day.

NO SUCH LUCK! Something I have done for at least three years with BHN cannot be done on Dish?????

About three minutes into my recording of the first Hellraiser, the picture faded out like the days of attempting to copy VHS-> VHS. What I noticed first was my Philips DVDR 3400 recorder had paused the recording and splashed a message about "no video signal" and then I noticed what was going on.

This is BS. This is complete garbage. I am not trying to sell these movies. I am not trying to steal. I am trying to make my own personal copy to watch when I have time. I am paying a lot of money for Dish Network in addition to cable. If I really enjoy a movie, I buy it on DVD or high def DVD. I have over 500 movies that I have BOUGHT. I am merely trying to take full advantage of what I am paying for. I am trying to free up space to record more until I have time to watch my movies. Most of these recorded movies are watched once and then they are garbage anyway! If I like the movie enough I will buy it.

Keep it up Dish. I am fed up to the point where I am going to cancel you. I'll cancel cable too if they start this BS. Push consumers away with copy protection, go ahead. Push me.

 

[ccg3]

It's not Dish, Direct, or the Cable companies that are pushing Copy Protection. It is the movie studios, they are requiring Dish, Direct or Cable to require COPY Protection to get contracts sign to carry there channels. DRM is coming to everyone down the road.

 

[Slamminc11]

Keep it up Dish. I am fed up to the point where I am going to cancel you. I'll cancel cable too if they start this BS. Push consumers away with copy protection, go ahead. Push me.

Well, cancel if you want, but since all providers are required to protect the stuff, you really aren't going to have anything to watch at all if you cancel.
You did catch the part about all providers are being required to do this, not just Dish, right?

 

[skottey]

Well, cancel if you want, but since all providers are required to protect the stuff, you really aren't going to have anything to watch at all if you cancel.
You did catch the part about all providers are being required to do this, not just Dish, right?

Like I said, I have bought over 500 DVDs to watch. That could keep me busy for the rest of my life!

I think there is going to be a major consumer backlash. I am an honest, PAYING customer who just wants copies for myself. Now I need to go spend another $130 to order a device to stop the fading in and out and allow me to make a backup copy.

BS! The backlash is coming.

 

[adishguy]

as a dish employee, i'm sorry u feel that way. this is something that is being pushed by most premium channels and will be industry wide shortly, they only allow 1 backup, they consider a recording to the dvr 1 backup. i feel your pain, i've got about 5 hours left on my dvr and can't decide what to delete!!!!!

 

[Slamminc11]

Like I said, I have bought over 500 DVDs to watch. That could keep me busy for the rest of my life!

I think there is going to be a major consumer backlash. I am an honest, PAYING customer who just wants copies for myself. Now I need to go spend another $130 to order a device to stop the fading in and out and allow me to make a backup copy.

BS! The backlash is coming.

Well, quiting Dish, or Direct, or Comcast, or any other cable company because of it makes no sense. They aren't in control of it.

 

[skottey]

Well, quiting Dish, or Direct, or Comcast, or any other cable company because of it makes no sense. They aren't in control of it.

So should I be going after HBO or the movie studios?

The fact is, there is a way and will always be a way for somebody that wants it bad enough to record their digital content. Whether it means soldering together some chips in a device or cracking an encryption code. Somebody will find a way and even more people will use it. They are basically alienating their paying subscribers by not allowing them to record a personal copy to DVD, while the crooks have taken the extra step to circumvent the "protection" and do it anyway.

This is like the liberal stance on gun control. Sure, you can ban guns but if a criminal wants one bad enough they will find a way. Some people would like to see guns banned. The honest home defenders will be without a gun to protect themselves while the crooks have guns and have the upper hand when coming into your house.

As a upstanding citizen in my community, I try to do the right thing and here is another example of getting dumped on because of a few bad apples (digital pirates who distribute the content). This is BS. Maybe I am mad at the wrong entity (Dish instead of HBO or the movie studios). But it really doesn't matter who is to blame, they are never going to stop digital piracy. This is a fruitless effort and just upsets the people that pay out the other end for the content.

Whether I drop Dish/cable or just the premium channels I hardly have any time to watch has yet to be decided, but they aren't doing much to defend themselves as to why I should keep them when they treat me like this.

 

[patmurphey]

If you don't like the conditions of sale of copyrighted material, don't buy it. Whining won't help.

 

[jrbdmb]

Do "fair use" rights include the right to make a DVD copy of a movie shown on a premium channel? The movie studios probably want you to BUY THE DVD if you want a DVD copy of a movie. And I don't blame them for this.

As long as they allow you to time shift the programming using your DVR, I don't see the problem. Paying $15 for HBO does not give you the right to make permanent DVD copies of the movies shown.

alienating their paying subscribers by not allowing them to record a personal copy to DVD

In other words they want you to BUY THE DVD. Again, I can't really blame them. I'm not sure exactly where copying an HBO movie to DVD for personal use falls in the legal / ethical spectrum, but I'm not suprised the movie studios want to curtail casual copying of their product (esp. HD).

 

[Van]

For AT LEAST the last three years I have been archiving my Bright House Network DVR recordings, live programming, premium channel programming and many movies on HBO, Showtime, and Cinemax ON Demand channels. I have never shared these recordings with anybody, just kept them in a binder for my own viewing later on. I've never had a problem recording cable.

According to HBO's website (which I found today researching the problem with Dish I am about to write about), it is OK to make a single copy of HBO and Cinemax programming and they say they don't allow you a copy of HBO or Cinemax On Demand. This is all news to me and up until about two or three months ago I was recording a lot. I just haven't recorded anything in the last few months. They say there is no need to "time shift" the On Demand material since the nature of On Demand is to watch it on your schedule, therefore they have disabled it (worked for me last time I checked). Yes HBO, there is a reason, and that reason is that you have an end date for programs on demand. If I don't have time to watch a show before August 25th and it ends August 25th on demand, I am SOL unless I record it. That is not permitted. But anyway... I am getting off my own topic.

The point I of this thread is that I have been recording everything except PPV on my BHN DVR for literally years. I now subscribe to Dish too (for about 5 months). I have never, until today, attempted to record anything from the 622 DVR unto my DVD recorder. But today I realized that the Monsters HD recordings of four Hellraiser movies and six Children of the Corn movies were about exhausting my storage space. I figured I would just start the recording and get a few of them onto DVD (yes I know they'd be standard def and not HD, but I don't care since my box was about full). I thought I would go back every two hours and change blank DVD-Rs and start recording the next film while I worked from home, freeing up space on my 622. I am way too busy to sit through any of these movies right now, and thought I'd set them aside for a rainy day.

NO SUCH LUCK! Something I have done for at least three years with BHN cannot be done on Dish?????

About three minutes into my recording of the first Hellraiser, the picture faded out like the days of attempting to copy VHS-> VHS. What I noticed first was my Philips DVDR 3400 recorder had paused the recording and splashed a message about "no video signal" and then I noticed what was going on.

This is BS. This is complete garbage. I am not trying to sell these movies. I am not trying to steal. I am trying to make my own personal copy to watch when I have time. I am paying a lot of money for Dish Network in addition to cable. If I really enjoy a movie, I buy it on DVD or high def DVD. I have over 500 movies that I have BOUGHT. I am merely trying to take full advantage of what I am paying for. I am trying to free up space to record more until I have time to watch my movies. Most of these recorded movies are watched once and then they are garbage anyway! If I like the movie enough I will buy it.

Keep it up Dish. I am fed up to the point where I am going to cancel you. I'll cancel cable too if they start this BS. Push consumers away with copy protection, go ahead. Push me.

So I guess that you havent read any news papers or watched any news broadcasts or any articles in magazines over the last few years have you? The industry is changing thanks to pirates who make hundres of thousands of bootleg copies of shows and sell them on the streets and in swapmeets and flea markets. I have to question though why you would first record to a dvr, then to a dvdr and then decide if you like the movie / show enough to go out and buy it because that sounds like a total waste of money and your bullshitting us into thinking that you would do that.

 

[nyvram]

Its a war. A war between 'pirates' or 'information freedom' advocates and the DRM pushers.

As with any war, I don't think we can predict the outcome. There are skirmishes..and wins by both sides so far.

Digital TV has allowed (for now) cable/movie studios/electonics companies to gain the upper hand. The HDCM (or whatever you call it) being injected into the hdmi cable and 'switched digital' or 'mpg2 to mpg4' things can be seen in this light as well. Look at Replay & TiVO. Insanely great products. Insanely out-of-business now. The reasons are obvious. Cable/sat companies have no desire to hack-off their bread & butter (movie studios) and if those are pushing the 'user friendly' boxes out of the market, then these companies have little choice but to acquiesse. Of course, they WANT to do it for selfish reasons..since they can control the software that gets subscribers to buy PPV & other services..they don't want a generic DVR on the user-side of the equation. Makes no financial sense to them.

I am not happy being a slave to the 'corporate controlled' 622, but there is little choice if you want to continue enjoying premium video content. I feel sorry for anyone investing in TiVO stock right now..and Replay? Poor thing. I was a sucker for never realizing my 'lifetime subscription' to the analog channel guide had a limited shelf-life. Who was thinking about the digital switchover 5 years ago?

Unfortunately, I'm on the sidelines cheering Microsoft on. They are the only game in town left with deep enough pockets to shake things up and give these companies a real run for their money. Sure, they are DRM crazy as well, but let's just say I like the idea of using my PC as the controlling software for my DVR instead of a locked DVR box....

 

[skottey]

If you don't like the conditions of sale of copyrighted material, don't buy it. Whining won't help.

So sitting back and allowing our fair use rights to disappear is the answer?

Whether or not I like it doesn't much matter. I was never advised that I couldn't record what I am paying for. After doing my own research online I found information about this online (yesterday), but the sales person in India sure as heck didn't tell me I'd be prohibited and prevented from recording what I am paying for. The Bosnian installer who barely spoke any English (who did a very fine job installing Dish and running cables) didn't mention that I'd be prohibited and prevented from recording what I am paying for. It's not written in any of the materials I signed or was left with.

God forbid there is any "whining" about something that I, the consumer, doesn't like. You go ahead and sit back while your rights are taken away from you. Change doesn't happen when people sit still about it. If enough people called them out on this problem they might actually reconsider preventing us from making our backup copy.

I guess I am one of very few people here that actually care about this. I can't see why any of you would be defending the movie studios or Dish on this one. If I can find a balance between spending the money on these resources (Dish and Cable) and actually watching these movies, I am more than likely to buy more DVDs. I can't like a movie enough to buy it if I can't see it. And I would hardly call HBO's pan and scan versions or 16x9 cropped HD versions something I'd like to keep. I'd much rather have the packaging and widescreen ratio of a manufactured DVD.

 

[nyvram]

PS Don't blame the pirates. DRM is a bad idea that I think is going to die over time. I personally think the music quality offered over iTunes sucks and I either rip my own or find alternatives with higher quality and no DRM. Why do you think V0-ripped music is so popular? The market has spoken and we have declared that the 99 cent audio forced down our throat is not up to our discerning standards.

Therefore, a ray of sunshine has emerged..a 'premium' version of the music at iTunes now..and without DRM. HOLY COW! Apple is a pirate now too? No, they're not. They looked at the reason allofmp3.com was so popular & said 'hmmm, maybe people actually want better encoded music after all' and started looking at ways to do that.

 

[skottey]

Do "fair use" rights include the right to make a DVD copy of a movie shown on a premium channel? The movie studios probably want you to BUY THE DVD if you want a DVD copy of a movie. And I don't blame them for this.

As long as they allow you to time shift the programming using your DVR, I don't see the problem. Paying $15 for HBO does not give you the right to make permanent DVD copies of the movies shown.

In other words they want you to BUY THE DVD. Again, I can't really blame them. I'm not sure exactly where copying an HBO movie to DVD for personal use falls in the legal / ethical spectrum, but I'm not suprised the movie studios want to curtail casual copying of their product (esp. HD).

Again, I have hundreds of DVDs in my collection that I have bought. I can honestly say that at this point in time I have all but about 20 movies on DVD that I have ever seen that I wish to own on my "wish list." At this point I am only pretty much buying new movies as they come out. Obviously, if I see an older movie on HBO that I didn't know about and enjoyed, I would then buy it on DVD.

Simply put, if I am unsure about a movie and watch it from a premium or basic cable channel and enjoy it enough to want to own it, I will buy it. As made clear in my initial post, my recordings are to free up space on the DVR and are garbage after I watch them. Either I liked the movie and buy it or I don't like the movie. Maybe for some of you a 16x9 cropped ratio off HBO HD is a keepsake to be added to your DVD collection but I would prefer a packaged DVD with the proper ratio.

Maybe I am alone, but the more movies I actually have time to watch, the more movies I BUY and add to my collection. As it stands, my Dish DVR is almost full. This means no more timers for movies until I watch what I have recorded. This also means I don't see anything I just have to have and I don't buy the movies on DVD.

But again, maybe I am alone on this. Maybe most people would sell these poor DVD-R captures or keep them instead of buying the DVD.

 

[skottey]

So I guess that you havent read any news papers or watched any news broadcasts or any articles in magazines over the last few years have you? The industry is changing thanks to pirates who make hundres of thousands of bootleg copies of shows and sell them on the streets and in swapmeets and flea markets. I have to question though why you would first record to a dvr, then to a dvdr and then decide if you like the movie / show enough to go out and buy it because that sounds like a total waste of money and your bullshitting us into thinking that you would do that.

You are getting off topic but to answer your question, I read the newspaper daily and several periodical magazines, as well as online forums like this and the news. If it is any of your concern I am VERY informed as to what is going on in the world around me.

Having that said, I have never in the past actually tried to record anything from Dish, only cable (successfully). I was trying to record yesterday because after a few months, my 622 is full.

You have to question why I would first record to DVR then a DVD? The answer has already been answered. MY BOX IS FULL! HELLO? ANYBODY HOME? When your box is full you either need to watch it, delete it, or not record anything new. I don't have time to watch these movies now, I put them on DVD-Rs, and then I can record more without missing a beat. I can go back and watch them when I have time.

You call it a waste of money? Well, I think I paid $15 for a batch of 100 DVD-Rs. Maybe that is a lot of money to you but I am financially above that at this point in my life. I am not BSing anybody. I collect movies and buy movies I enjoy. Is that so hard to understand? I certainly don't buy every movie I watch and I certainly don't watch a bad movie more than once. And I sure as hell don't sell movies at the flea market. My time is more valuable than that.

Why must you read between the lines? You can't read my post for what it is worth and just believe a fellow poster of this group? Everyone is full of it? I couldn't possibly be telling the truth now could I?

 

[8bitbytes]

Buh bye!

You are not the Intellectual Property rights holder, you are not the distributor, you are not even ENTITLED to do anything but watch the content from your primary receiver and only if you agree to the user agreement of the provider and pay them in a timely fashion.

Go ahead and try to apply FAIR USE to DVR content but it's not gonna fly. Whatever cable let you get away with is on them but does not indicate what you should or should not be able to do with any and all providers.

If HBO wants to force you to watch their stuff but not copy it, that's their decision and Dish must agree to that request or lose broadcast rights.

I can understand your frustration, but you are taking it way too far. Go run 5 miles and then come back and rethink your position.

 

[nyvram]

You can always upgrade your 622 for $40 and a buy a nice fat hard drive.

This 'concession' on the part of DISH surprises me a bit. Not that I don't appreciate the feature; I just think no matter how well they 'protect' the drive that someone is going to hook it up to their XP machine, write a few lines of C++ and voila, the "Dish to PC" utility appears that allows you to copy mpg4 vids to your PC for back-up.

I'm sure they have taken measures to dissuade this capability..but there are too many DISH geeks out there with nothing but time on their hands...

 

[iafirebuff]

I have not (as of last week) had any problems transferring from my 622 to my DVD recorder.

 

[rockymtnhigh]

I have not (as of last week) had any problems transferring from my 622 to my DVD recorder.

I did it the other day; but its about specific content being protected.

 

[skottey]

You can always upgrade your 622 for $40 and a buy a nice fat hard drive.

This 'concession' on the part of DISH surprises me a bit. Not that I don't appreciate the feature; I just think no matter how well they 'protect' the drive that someone is going to hook it up to their XP machine, write a few lines of C++ and voila, the "Dish to PC" utility appears that allows you to copy mpg4 vids to your PC for back-up.

I'm sure they have taken measures to dissuade this capability..but there are too many DISH geeks out there with nothing but time on their hands...

I have been reading on here about the external storage drive ability and it sounds great. I just have one question. Am I allowed more than one external drive?

I have several external USB drives and it would be great to be able to use more than one. I just have a feeling they are going to limit us to one though.