Dish not grounded

[mfoster711]

My Dish currently is not grounded. Is that a problem? How do I fix it? Should I expect Dish to correct this?

The original Dish was installed in the middle of the room close to a vent so the installer could easily run wires into the attic. The original install was done in late 2005. At this time the Dish was not properly grounded but I didn't know this.

A couple of years later I upgraded to HD and a different installer came out to hook it up. He "couldn't believe" where the original installer placed the Dish and he pointed out that the system wasn't grounded. He reluctantly went ahead with the upgrade but he made a point to note on the work order that I "need to get an electrician out to properly ground the system". I meant to look into that but forgot about it.

Well today I added another receiver to my system and the installer had to run another wire from the Dish. He didn't say anything one way or the other and completed the install. At the end when he was making me sign all the paperwork and he me initial something about the system not being grounded. I asked him "does this mean my house is going to burn down" and he said "no, it just means the system is not grounded but it can't be grounded because of where they placed the Dish".

So does the system need grounded? If so, what is the correct way this should have been done? Should I call Dish and complain and make them fix this? It was there installers that did all the work.

 

[xyz38]

When my dish was installed Sept 09, the installer did not ground it. When I asked about the ground, the owner of the local business came out with a dish book and showed me a diagram with no ground and told me that was the way it should be.

I e-mailed dish tech service and they said it should have been grounded as part of my free install and to call the installer and tell him so.

Since they did not charge me the $60 that they said I would have to pay if they put it on a pole instead of the house, I grounded it myself for about $15.

My message and Dish response:

Hi,
I would like to know if the satellite dish or in ground post has to be grounded to meet Dish standards and protect the equipment and warranty.
Only the coax cable was grounded on my instillation. When I questioned the local Dish dealer, he showed me a page in a Dish Network book that did not show a ground on the dish. He said that the picture in the receiver manual showing a ground on the dish is old and out of date. He said that the coax cable is all that has to be grounded to protect the equipment and warranty. He said that if they ground the dish they will charge me for doing so. It was a free instillation with the package that I got.
Sincerely,
My Name
From: -------->
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:27 PM
Dear Mr.--------
Thank you for your email. We do apologize for the inconvenience. We have forwarded your inquiry to our Technical Department and someone will be contacting you in a timely manner. If you need immediate assistance, please contact us at 1-800-333-3474.
We realize that in today’s competitive world you have a choice in services. We thank you for your continued support, and your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com <http://www.dishnetwork.com/> or reply to this email.
DISH Network is committed to providing world class customer service to our customers. In an effort to continually improve our services, we ask that you take time to complete this short survey to let us know how we are doing. We appreciate your time in evaluating our performance.
Click on the link below to start the survey:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/data/services/csat/survey.aspx <http://www.dishnetwork.com/data/services/csat/survey.aspx>
Would this also be your current email address?
Sincerely,
Dennis P. IBZ
DISH Network E-Care
Pinebrook
Dear Mr. ------
Thank you for your email. We apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused. The dish is required to be grounded on your system. This is part of your standard installation so there should be no additional cost for this. Please contact the retailer that did you installation to get this corrected. If you have any issue with getting the dish grounded through your local retailer that did the original installation please feel free to contact our customer service center at 1-800-894-9131.

If in the future you have questions concerning a specific error or symptom your receiver is experiencing you may refer to specific troubleshooting steps by visiting http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiverhome.shtml selecting the appropriate model of which can be located by pressing the Menu button on your Dish Network remote, selecting 6 for System Setup,1 for Installation, 3 for System Information this will either be located in Box D or labeled Model ID. Then you may use drop down menus on the top left of the screen to select a specific symptom or error.
We realize that in today’s competitive world that you have a choice in services. Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, you may refer to www.dishnetwork.com, speak with a live agent via chat http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/chat/techchatadvcustform.shtml or you may call 1-800-894-9131 or reply to this e-mail.

DISH Network is committed to providing world class service to our customers. In an effort to continually improve our services, we ask that you take time to complete this short survey to let us know how we are doing. We appreciate your time in evaluating our performance.
Click on the link below to start the survey:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/data/services/csat/survey.aspx
Sincerely,
Alisha A. M1B
Dish Network Technical Support
** Please include all previous correspondence when replying to this message **

 

[mfoster711]

The original Dish was installed in the middle of the room close to a vent so the installer could easily run wires into the attic.

This should have been "roof", not "room".

 

[magnum2066]

The reason the dish should be grounded is static electricity.

Without grounding the home the entire house is a fire hazard. (Ever hear of old homes burning to the ground from electrical fires?) An extreme buildup of static electricity have a habit of causing electrical fires. I'm saying that not grounding the dish will cause a fire but I'm also saying it won't. The wind brushing across the reflector is what causes a static buildup. Without a ground the static gets dissipated through the coax going to the back of the receiver. Just get that corrected one way or another. You're within your 60 day warranty, call Dish @ 1-800-823-4929 and have them make a trouble call for you to have someone bring the install up to code (ground the system.)

Whatever you do DO NOT SIGN OFF on the ground this time! It is our job to do a clean, professional, and up to code install!

Also, you could hire an electrician to install one for you... Got pictures of the side of the house where it enters the home?

 

[KKlare]

What gauge wire should be used for a house-shielded (off a deck at 5' elevation) dishs? I would use 16 or 14 gauge for static with lightning protection impossible.

Somewhere I may have a grounding block or could use the DPP44 switch. The use of the lugs on a switch has been debated as acceptable or not over the years. I would have to route a wire through 2 foundation walls for about 40' to reach the service entry or 60' along the ground without penetrations and that's why it was not done by several installers, even one that would not install on a working HD system without blue cores for feed-thrus, showing his priority.
-Ken

 

[TimberWolf]

There are 2 different versions of dpp44s available. The older one is unpainted and not UL listed as a ground connection. The newer one is painted light gray, is UL listed and does not require a ground block.

I have never seen a small dish, grounded or not, take a direct lightening hit unlike the old c-bands that were giant lightening rods.

Most recs damaged by lightening has had it come in over the phone lines first.

If the ground wire ends up being longer than the coax run it will be useless anyway.

Early dish recs only had 2-prong electrical plugs and a lot of people would get a static shock if the touched the rec on an ungrounded system. Newer recs and properly grounded outlets eliminate this problem.

I've also seen jobs were the ground had to be disconnected from the main house ground because it was live or had other problems that messed with the dish system.

There are also very few apartment installs that are or can be grounded at all

 

[w2kb]

I seem to recall that the US National Electrical Code, adopted by many states, requires all radio/TV feedlines (e.g., coax) to be grounded at or as close as possible to the entry point to the building. That is generally done by a feed through a grounding block at that point, connected to the building common ground if adjacent or to a separate properly sized and installed ground rod near the entry point. If the latter, a ground wire is also required to be run from the ground rod to the building ground to equalize any voltage differential.

Suggest that the local building code and/or or local electric code official be consulted to determine what is required.

 

[dvrexpander]

As a installer I can tell you this.. IT WON'T HURT ANYTHING NOT GROUNDED!!! There are many many MANY homes I can't find a grounding location where the dish has to go. Satellite systems should not be grounded. If the ground prong on other appliances is sufficient, the same should apply to a satellite system.

Old houses with reversed polarity, bad service grounds, and loose neutrals are more dangerous when wired with ground blocks and 3 prong plugs, than being wired with no grounds within the satellite system what so ever.

If you want to ground it just run a small gauge wire to the mounting mast and put a small bolt in a hole and lock it down..then hook it to a ground point.... wall socket, water pipe, etc... but again it is not that big of a deal. Dish wants you to make a attempt if you can per the QAS or quality check that a inspector will do but if there isn't one within a certain feet of the install dish then they won't dock you for it and it is just a installer's "Cover my butt just in case" when they write this stuff down on the paper work and have you sign off on it just so you know what is going on with the whole install.

To be honest, I've seen more issues with a ground being hooked up to the Satellite than if there wasn't one. I've only seen lightning effect one dish before but it never destroyed anything - just heated the reflector of the dish up so hot that it shrunk it in like a taco and caused the signal levels to drop 30points lol

Edit: Just to go on record some of this info came from a grounding discussion we installers had in the Installer zone.

 

[magnum2066]

if you aren't grounding many many many MANY jobs you are not doing your job or being lazy. If there is no ground available then the job isn't to be done per dish standards. In that case an electrician is required. Simple as that. It is nec code to ground which is basically law. All the previous techs did was take the responsibility off their shoulders and onto the customers.

 

[eddie willers]

There is the law (antiquated) and what is proper.

I (another installer) agree with dvrexpander. In 98% of installations, you are inviting problems by grounding. Little dish, not high point of roof, plastic yolk separating metal parts, shielded cable, modern house wiring, etc.

Ans as far as static electricity goes, the worst that can happen is that it can short out an LNBF (and I only remember those with the early 18" dish...and mostly Sonys).

I did my own install and purposely left it ungrounded.

Read the literature...you will find arguments for both points of view. I find the not grounding arguments more compelling.

 

[jbrooks987]

You're likely to find it rather expensive should something happen. Insurance companies have been known to deny claims if grounding was improper or non-existent and there was lightning or surge damage.

 

[Haysoos]

If I walked away from every install that I couldn't 'properly' bond the antenna, I wouldn't be doing much work. Apartment installs, which are already hit and miss, would be non existant. No one living in an apartment would have DBS, unless that complex had very flexible rules regarding antenna placement.

The real question should be is why is DISH/DTV and the NEC enforcing archaic rules. I understand there needs to be a standard but this isn't McDonald's and you can't cookie cutter every install. What's the point of bonding to something that isn't properly grounded? Old 2-wire homes, I can't tell if their power mast is properly grounded. If I can find their cold water pipe and bond to it within 1 ft of it entering the house, then great. However that does go against the NEC code of bonding before the cable enters the home. So you have conflicting rules.

So basically you have bond to something that looks iffy and wait for something to happen or not bond to it and have nothing happen. DISH/DTV require the first.

 

[Toddwsu2005]

I worked for Time Warner and can say that grounding was usually something that was if it's close do it. As it's been mentioned, you can run grounding wire all over because that defeats the purpose. Also a house is only supposed to have 1 grounding rod. Which you never know how far away that is. Not to mention the fact that so many homes didn't even have a ground. We were forbid to ground to the water pipe.

 

[MrDogDad]

I really find it amusing that some people find the NEC outdated or antiquated. The code is reviewed and revised every 3 years. The code itself is not a law but basically every jurisdiction in the country has issued laws requiring the code to be followed (with some variances in a few places).
I think the big problem is that since changes to the code are not retroactive, many older homes don't have proper grounding systems and it would be too expensive for satellite and cable installers to have to provide them. None of these companies want to delay an installation until a customer has an electrician provide a properly bonded grounding point. This does violate the code, but I guess the city county and state electrical departments don't really care.

 

[llzel]

"Without grounding the home the entire house is a fire hazard. (Ever hear of old homes burning to the ground from electrical fires?) An extreme buildup of static electricity have a habit of causing electrical fires."

Please don't pass along bad information.

Grounding the dish outside is covered under NEC article 250. The purpose of bonding the metal dish to the building ground system is two fold, one should the dish come in contact with an energized circuit it will immediately fault the energized circuit (trip the circuit breaker to the open position), secondly, if the fault wasn't cleared and the home owner or an installer came in contact with dish and he/she was grounded, ie, on a metal ladder, they then would become the ground path. You are not grounding the dish, you are bonding the metal component to the building grounding electrode system.

The ground has nothing to do with lightning protection, no way could a #12 AWG conductor withstand that much current

 

[dvrexpander]

if you aren't grounding many many many MANY jobs you are not doing your job or being lazy. If there is no ground available then the job isn't to be done per dish standards. In that case an electrician is required. Simple as that. It is nec code to ground which is basically law. All the previous techs did was take the responsibility off their shoulders and onto the customers.

This is false, DNS standards are that but many MANY jobs as I said get inspected and they pass with flying colors - even the ones without Grounds. Now if I had to wait for a electrician on each job to do my job then we wouldn't be getting anything done and no customer that I go to would pay to have a ground rod put in next to a Sat dish.. PERIOD! Hell half the ones I go too are lucky to even be able to afford to watch tv.

 

[dvrexpander]

Plain and simple.. if I had to ground each job then I would be making hardly anything to get by and Dish would be losing money, people would be pissed off cause they can't get TV for something trivial and I can bet my soul on the fact that many customers at that point would be willing to sign it off in blood just to get TV!!

I'll say it again, Grounding isn't needed!! As pointed out if you look at a dish there are many parts that have plastic involved and the wire run from a ground block to a grounding point HAS to be less than that of the shortest wire run to any receiver - PERIOD!

 

[magnum2066]

The ground has nothing to do with lightning protection, no way could a #12 AWG conductor withstand that much current

I know it wouldn't, nothing pretty much withstands that although it is exciting to see a dish after that happens. Looks like someone took a shotgun to the dish.

I'll say it again, Grounding isn't needed!! As pointed out if you look at a dish there are many parts that have plastic involved and the wire run from a ground block to a grounding point HAS to be less than that of the shortest wire run to any receiver - PERIOD!

You want the dish to follow the coax path, but not utilize it because that would defeat the purpose of the messenger wire which is why there is a plastic lnb bracket instead of a metal one.

Please bear with me on this topic guys, I'm no electrician by any means all I have to go by is my personal experience. Back in the superdish days I've always noticed I barely ever got rolled to a job that I grounded (and had failed equip) compared to the ones that had equip failures and were not grounded. After about a year I mentioned it to a fellow tech and he started grounding every job and noticed the same thing. If this is a home electrical issue I find it hard to believe that many homes have electrical gremlins.

Coincidence?

 

[AlaJoe]

You know what I find odd about this is that I still remember this issue from my first dish install. It was around 5-6 years ago and I remember this because I found it strange. When the installer finished and had everything working he said that he just needed me to sign some paperwork and take some pictures before he left. He then got out a digital camera and took pictures of where the ground was connected. I ask him what that was about. He told me that they were required by DN to Ground the Dish and that Dish has Auditors that will on occasion do follow ups to make certain the installers are doing what they are supposed to be doing and if they found an ungrounded dish he would not get paid for the entire install. He said he takes the pictures because he is not going to work for free and he grounds every install he does.