DishHD-Lite: Can We Ask Some REAL QUESTIONS During Tonight's Tech?

[riffjim4069]

I seldom watch the DishHD LIL channels since I receive them in pristine form (let's not get into multicasting) from broadcasters in Washington DC, Baltimore MD, and Richmond VA. However, I accidentally recorded the Pistons vs. Bulls game this Sunday afternoon on one of my HD LIL channels instead of OTA. All I can say is that all of my worst suspicions about DishHD-Lite have been confirmed.

The PQ on DishHD continues its downward slide as evident by comparing recordings made on my ViP622s over the past year or so, making comparisons against that being offered via OTA and Comcast on my four HDTVs, using my well-trained eyes, and seeing stuff like this pop up from time-to-time. Granted, this is obvious and overt, but I see all the numerous minor artifacts, soft picture quality, and other covert attempts to hide the fact these MPEG4 encoders just aren't doing the job with the current workload being thrown at them. It's just that simple - it's just that bad!

Anyway, check-out the linked video (I'll attempt to attach it) and ask yourself if Dish Network is providing you with an honest DishHD value for you viewing dollar. BTW, all my equipment is properly calibrated, almost all my TP signal levels are 100+, this recording was identical on two ViP622s, and this problem did not occur on my DC and Richmond locals. Also, noticed how the audio and static ESPN score banner remain displayed and somewhat in focus, while the games...well, the video speaks for itself.

It's time to demand that Dish Network STOP overloading transponders in the hope that the new encoders, and modulation, will somehow provide everyone with a pretty picture - it's just not happening in my opinion.

I'll try to upload the attachment, but I've provided a link to photobucket just in case...

http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/riffjim4069/?action=view&current=DishHD-Lite20070513.flv (sorry about the Photobucket viewer, the WMV file is actually much better)

 

[harshness]

That looks more like lost signal to me.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Looks like you have something screwed up on your end Jim.

 

[riffjim4069]

That looks more like lost signal to me.

Look like it, but it is not.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Ill be the first to admit that OTA locals look better than anything ive seen(have not yet seen mpeg4 locals) and its all I watch and record when I can.

Now, other than the Voom channels showing a slight PQ issue, I feel E*'s other HD channels (NatGeo,Disc,Hdnet,Univ) are all on par with D* and Comcast(owned them both in the last year).

I think a proper question is why is 1080i not 1920x1080. There might already be a reason but I do not know it.

 

[foghorn2]

I seldom watch the DishHD LIL channels since I receive them in pristine form (let's not get into multicasting) from broadcasters in Washington DC, Baltimore MD, and Richmond VA. However, I accidentally recorded the Pistons vs. Bulls game this Sunday afternoon on one of my HD LIL channels instead of OTA. All I can say is that all of my worst suspicions about DishHD-Lite have been confirmed.

The PQ on DishHD continues its downward slide as evident by comparing recordings made on my ViP622s over the past year or so, making comparisons against that being offered via OTA and Comcast on my four HDTVs, using my well-trained eyes, and seeing stuff like this pop up from time-to-time. Granted, this is obvious and overt, but I see all the numerous minor artifacts, soft picture quality, and other covert attempts to hide the fact these MPEG4 encoders just aren't doing the job with the current workload being thrown at them. It's just that simple - it's just that bad!

Anyway, check-out the linked video (I'll attempt to attach it) and ask yourself if Dish Network is providing you with an honest DishHD value for you viewing dollar. BTW, all my equipment is properly calibrated, almost all my TP signal levels are 100+, this recording was identical on two ViP622s, and this problem did not occur on my DC and Richmond locals. Also, noticed how the audio and static ESPN score banner remain displayed and somewhat in focus, while the games...well, the video speaks for itself.

It's time to demand that Dish Network STOP overloading transponders in the hope that the new encoders, and modulation, will somehow provide everyone with a pretty picture - it's just not happening in my opinion.

I'll try to upload the attachment, but I've provided a link to photobucket just in case...

http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/riffjim4069/?action=view&current=DishHD-Lite20070513.flv (sorry about the Photobucket viewer, the WMV file is actually much better)

There is always Cable Choice available to you.

Dish's HD signals look great to me and most Subs. Otherwise people would be leaving like crazy, except for the HD-Lightweights of course!

BTW the video posted is not going to convince anyone.

 

[MikeD-C05]

I get the same thing on my Dish HD ABC from Houston. Especially the pink 6 quadrants screens. This is an on going problem that Dish knows about and I have been working on with them but sadly a year after the launch of mpeg4 hd locals , I still have problems with this station: Ktrk channel 13 . I don't see this on the national hd channels at all , JUST ABC channel 13 ktrk in hd.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I got a chance to really watch Jims video. And it really is an issue on his side. If ESPN looked like that for everyone we would never hear the end of it.

 

[pdxsam]

While there might be something up on Jim's end, I recorded the baseball game off ESPN last night and I ended up with a recording with a bunch of tearing throughout the game. I expect that once in a while there will be some pixellation, it's the nature of the beast. This is the worst I've seen in a long time. I wonder if there's a transponder issue. Could be that most people are like me and expect there's going to be some issues with getting television out of space but just don't say anything. It will be interesting to watch in the coming weeks if the complaints start coming out of the woodwork.

 

[mlb]

The 720p stations on Dish look great, IMO. Exactly the same as Time Warner here in Dayton, whom does not compress the signal at all.

1080i stations obviously are not full 1080i, and while that sucks, I don't notice it so much because my projector is only 720p.

Dish is by far the best HD value, I won't be leaving any time soon.

By the way, the channels I watch the most are ESPNHD and ESPN2HD, I've never seen anything like that. Obviously you have issues with your setup, Jim.

 

[gadgtfreek]

The 720p stations on Dish look great, IMO. Exactly the same as Time Warner here in Dayton, whom does not compress the signal at all.

1080i stations obviously are not full 1080i, and while that sucks, I don't notice it so much because my projector is only 720p.

Dish is by far the best HD value, I won't be leaving any time soon.

I agree. NatGeo in 720p is awesome. My only real issue is why the non 1920x1080i on some channels. Granted I think HBO and Disc are true hd.

As far as ESPN goes, I truthfully never watch it unless its football season. I did notice last year that between D* and Comcast, ESPN really had some fluctions on PQ between broadcasts. Watch one game at 4pm and it would be horrible, next game would look fine. Someone told me it was the different cameras in place for the particular game.

 

[mlb]

I've noticed ESPNHD looking bad, but that is not provider specific, it has been ESPN specific. Both Dish and TWC looked bad at the same time.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I've noticed ESPNHD looking bad, but that is not provider specific, it has been ESPN specific. Both Dish and TWC looked bad at the same time.

I agree, I feel ESPN's HD quality is not where it should be. Which is funny since they are a sports only station.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I see compression shortcomings on pretty much every HD channel and every HD show, including the 720p channels. I'd love to have a higher quality option, but there is none for me. So I just bide my time, accept it for what it is, and hope that a better option materializes at some point in the future.

My first preference for the better option would be E* upgrading the quality by taking advantage of the improved MPEG4 encoders and using some of the bandwidth gains toward PQ instead of more channels. But I'm not holding my breath because I've had the same hopes for E* SD channels for years and it never happened.

Right now the HD PQ is decent. It's not true HD, it isn't stunning, but it is usually better than DVD.

 

[db2]

I see compression shortcomings on pretty much every HD channel and every HD show, including the 720p channels. I'd love to have a higher quality option, but there is none for me. So I just bid my time, accept it for what it is, and hope that a better option materializes at some point in the future.

My first perference for the better option would be E* upgrading the quality by taking advantage of the improved MPEG4 encoders and using some of the bandwidth gains toward PQ instead of more channels. But I'm not holding my breath because I've had the same hopes for E* SD channels for years and it never happened.

Right now the HD PQ is decent. It's not true HD, it isn't stunning, but it is usually better than DVD.

I agree with much of what you said Tom. E* will continue to compress signals to the point where enough people start to complain and then they will back off. I am highly skeptical of some of the recent speculations involving the 2 forthcoming satellites and, "better picture quality." Yes, the new mpeg4 encoders can look better than overly compressed mpeg2 signals but I believe E* will use the extra space created by going, "all mpeg4" on the new satellites to squeeze in more channels, not improve PQ.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

An example of what I would like to see E* doing would be along the lines of ...

Let's say you can get 3 HD channels on a single transponder using MPEG4 Gen1. Then MPEG4 Gen2 comes along and it enables you to put 6 HD channels on at the same quality as the Gen1 encoder.

What I would love to see happen is for E* to take that advanced technology and put 5 HD channels on the Gen2 transponder. This way they would realize a 67% gain in capacity, while increasing the effective bandwidth by 20% per channel.

However historically E* (and D*) have left the PQ & bandwidth the same, and used 100% of the gain for increased channel capacity.

Based upon my experience of being an E* sub for 9 years, I am not optimistic that the two new satellites and conversion to full MPEG4 will result in any PQ improvements. In fact, I think there is more reason to fear further PQ degradation as E* will want to provide HD LiLs to every metropolitan area in the USA, along with trying to offer more national HD channels than any other provider. Being the leader in HD channels usually requires more compression.

 

[kstuart]

An example of what I would like to see E* doing would be along the lines of ...

Let's say you can get 3 HD channels on a single transponder using MPEG4 Gen1. Then MPEG4 Gen2 comes along and it enables you to put 6 HD channels on at the same quality as the Gen1 encoder.

What I would love to see happen is for E* to take that advanced technology and put 5 HD channels on the Gen2 transponder. This way they would realize a 67% gain in capacity, while increasing the effective bandwidth by 20% per channel.

However historically E* (and D*) have left the PQ & bandwidth the same, and used 100% of the gain for increased channel capacity.

We have had this argument on the various DBS Forums for 10 years.

Decreasing the number of channels for greater PQ only works if the channel you want to see is still being carried.

If E* increases the PQ by not carrying the channel you want to see, the advantage is zero.

Since E* has no preference for any particular channel, and there is a wide array of preferences amongst the viewers, then any action to not carry a channel is going to cause some customer to miss something they want to see.

The other aspect always missed by the "HD-Lite" complainers is that MPEG2 and MPEG4 are both lossey. All HD in the USA involves removing data that is in the original picture. Lowering the resolution to an HD resolution that is still far greater than SD, may produce a better picture than being religiously devoted to "1920x1080" at all costs.

 

[Sammy033]

Unfortunately , E* is in a bind in that most people look at number of channels and not quality. Read enough posts here about why people signed up for or switched is the number of HD channels compared to the others. Nothing about their quality. So E* gives the market what it wants: quantity over quality.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Ive accepted the fact that Ill only get the best looking HD OTA and that limits me, so Ill take what I can get via a provider. I still record as much OTA HD as possible as opposed to Cable/Sat HD locals.

 

[Kru83]

Ive accepted the fact that Ill only get the best looking HD OTA and that limits me, so Ill take what I can get via a provider. I still record as much OTA HD as possible as opposed to Cable/Sat HD locals.

i never seen OTA HD feed. how does it look. is it as good as dvd quality ??? or better.........any video clips.