Does anybody receive Guide Plus updates through their DTVPal Plus?

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

Does anybody receive Gemstar Guide Plus data through their DTVPal Plus?

I have a Guide Plus device (Philips HDRW720) that displays TV Guide On Screen information decoded from the analog vertical blanking interval. With the digital transition coming soon this very nice feature will stop working when the local analog PBS station stops its analog transmission carrying the Gemstar TV Guide data.

Recently, I purchased a DTVPal Plus with high hopes that it would solve my Guide Data issue on my DVR. The Philips HDRW720 has been an outstanding DVR with its 120BG hard drive and DVD player/recorder. The Guide Plus makes its very easy to program. The Philips HDRW720 was an excellent piece of equipment aside from the Guide Plus warts and crashing from time to time. Although the last firmware update made it much more reliable. The TV Guide is freely received over the air compared to TIVO.

I set up the DTVpal Plus for TV Guide & Guide Plus on the menu. Basically, it makes the DTVPal Plus respond to Scientific Atlanta IR remote control commands from the G-Link cable. When I set up the Guide Plus according to the manual and turn it off I can see the Philips DVR sending channel commands searching for a host channel much like it does with my cable box, but it never seems to find a host channel to get the program guide information which the book eludes the DTVPal is capable of providing. I would think it must be converting the PSIP data or some part of the digital signal to analog signal format for this to happen. I notice that the digital channel numbers are converted to what an ancient analog box can command (ex. channel 015-01 is converted to analog channel 14). Unfortunately, there is no documentation in the manual that explains how the channels are mapped. I get about 12 channels in Decatur Alabama with rabbit ears with the DTVPal Plus in the normal mode, but when I switch to the Guide Plus command mode I can only see 6 channels when I scan from channel 1-99 and it seems to be lacking the PBS and CBS stations that could possibly provide the data needed.

Is there any way to re-map the digital to analog channel mapping in the DTVPal Plus, because my Philips HDRW720 is limited to channels 1-99 ?

Does anybody have the Guide Plus or TVGOS getting updated when the DTVPal Plus is in the TV Guide & Guide Plus mode?


Thanks in advance.

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

This is an update to my previous post. I have yet to hear from anybody who has a DTVpal Plus feeding their Analog Guide Plus device with programming information! I assume there are no success stories from all that I have read on the Web.


Synopsis of Dish emails:

1. They recommended attempting to add the CBS channel manually with vague detail on how to do it. The local CBS channel is 19-1 and 19-2. Channel 19-2 was assigned to channel 59 on the DTVpal Plus. It can also be accessed with channel 291 on the DTVpal, but the Guide Plus system on my TV and DVR only search channels 2-99 in their search for a Gemstar / Macrovision host channel. When the DTVpal is placed in the TV Guide / Guide Plus mode it responds to Scientific Atlanta IR remote control commands. I have confirmed that both my TV and DVR send commands through the G-Link IR Blaster by watching it be decoded by a Scientific Atlanta cable set top box. It clearly sends commands to change the channel from 2-99 as it scans for a host Gemstar / Macrovision channel. The DTVpal clearly handles channel 2-69 differently than all the other channels. It appears to map all the “major number-highest minor number” digital stations only. For example, the DTVpal Plus maps 19-2 to channel 59, but it does not map channel 19-1 in the 2-69 range. It will map 25-4 to channel 24, but it does not map 24-1, 24-2, or 24-3 in the 2-69 range. Any channel the DTVpal finds when it is initially turned on will be mapped in the range 2-69, but it only maps the highest minor number of the major number channel. This is clear, but Dish does not explain it. This has been confirmed with a SA handheld remote control since the DTVpal Plus responds to SA remote commands when the DTVpal Plus in in the TV Guide / Guide Plus mode.

2. When step #1 failed Dish told me I cannot map digital channels to other channels in the DTVpal Plus converter. Further, they stated that if my TV must read the channel as a analog channel it is not possible? Huh? Clearly, somebody does not know how their product works. Dish stated that the DTVpal Plus passes TVGOS (TV Guide on screen) information, but the person said they were unsure how it is compatible with Guide Plus. Thy recommended contacting the TV manufacturer. I suspected they were just tossing the monkey on somebody else’s back. I contacted both RCA (TV model F32650) and Philips (DVR model HDRW720) and they both knew nothing about the Dish DTVpal and confirmed what I knew about how their how their devices work. Both the RCA and Philips Guide Plus systems will scan channels 2-99 on the DTVpal box through the G-Link, but they never find a host channel.

3. The third response got to be a little strange in content. The representative explained that the DTVpal Plus would be much more expensive and much larger if it worked the way I thought. Clearly, there is some misinterpretation here. The DTVpal Plus is a converter that outputs a signal to channel 3 or 4 to an analog TV or outputs composite video. When a SA remote control sends the channel 59 command it goes to channel 59 and the TV displays it is channel 19-2 (59) on the TV. Clearly, channel 59 is a mapped channel. Something clearly maps channel sequence 59 to digital channel 19-2. Also channel 292 is mapped to digital channel 19-2. This is the only way an analog TV is going to view digital channels.


DTVpal not providing Gemstar / Macrovision signal to Guide Plus device

This is about as far as I got at this point. My Guide Plus devices have yet to find a host Gemstar / Macrovision channel to gather Guide Plus data. The DTVpal Plus clearly gets channel information for its own guide when it is not in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode.

The question remains, does the DTVpal provide Guide Plus data to Guide Plus devices or not. So far, it has not worked for me. The DTVpal Plus does respond to SA remote commands from my DTVpal Plus when it is placed in the TV Guide / Guide Plus mode of operation. The Guide Plus devices are working as expected by scanning channels 2-99 on the DTVpal. So, the Guide Plus devices are working as expected, but the DTVpal is not providing the Gemstar / Macrovision data my Guide Plus devices need to see when they are searching for a host channel. My next step is to put a scope on the CBS and PBS signals and look at VBI 14 to see if it is there or not. BTW, my local CBS station confirms they carry the Macrovision signal.




How the DTVpal Pus behaves in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation

• Channels 2-69 are handled differently
• Any OTA channel is mapped in the channel 2-69 range with one exception. Only the highest minor channel of the major digital channel is mapped (major-minor). For example, digital channels 25-1, 25-2, 25-3, and 25-4 are available, but only digital channel 25-4 is mapped in the channel 2-69 range. Digital channels 25-1, 25-2, and 25-3 are not mapped in the channel 2-69 range. This is true for all major digital channels.
• For 3-digit channel numbers above 100, there appears to be a systematic mapping method to access digital channels from a Guide Plus device. Where 101 = digital 01-1 and 999 = digital 89-1. The display screen confirms this when a channel is not found. The 3 digital channel number equates to a digital channel number in the “mm-n” mapping method where 2 digit major followed by 1 digit minor channels can be accessed. The first digit of the sequence is always subtracted by 1, where the channel sequence 291equates to 19-1 and 292 equates to 19-2. For channel sequences above channel 999 (4 digit channel numbers), the mapping is similar but there are some deviations. To this date, Dish would not/has not confirmed or denied this information. Their support only states there is no mapping, but I think it is a matter of interpretation.
• For channel numbers 1000 to 9999 the mapping supports digital channels 1-10 through 99-99. The 4 digit channel numbers support the “mm-nn” digital channels or simply the 2 digit minor numbers (10 through 99) for each major digital channels (1-99). The channel sequence 1000 equates to digital channel 1-10, 1089 equates to digital channel 1-99, 1090 equates to digital channel 2-10, and 9999 equates to digital channel 99-99. The mapping is not quite as straight forward as the 3-digit channel sequence, but digital channels 01-1 through 99-99 are mapped to 3-digit and 4-digit number sequences when the DTVpal is in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode to work with Scientific-Atlanta IR remote commands.

What is known about the DTVpal and Guide Plus combination

• The Guide Plus devices (Philips DVR model HDRW720 and RCA TV model F32650 both send commands to scan the DTVpal Plus via the G-Link / I-Link IR Blaster to command it to scan channels 2-99.
• Both Guide Plus devices (Philips DVR model HDRW720 and RCA TV model F32650) fail to find a Gemstar / Macrovision host channel from which to download Guide+ data. They continue to scan in an infinite loop from channels and repeats itself.
• If the Guide+ data is on channel 19-1 it will never find it since the DTVpal Plus only maps 19-2 to channel 59. It does not map 19-1 in the channel 2-69 range.
• One cannot add a specific channel to be mapped in the 2-69 channel range with the DTVpal menu to add a channel. Basically, YOU CANNOT MAP the channels as the DTVpal has its own mapping.
• It is clear that the DTVpal only maps the highest minor channel for any major digital channel in the channel 2-69 range. If 25-1. 25-2, 25-3, and 25-4 are found, then it will only map 25-4 to a channel in the channel 2-69 range and you cannot change it. There is an exception I found through experimentation and that is if you delete the minor channels through the DTVpal menu system. In this case if you delete channels 25-4, 25-3, and 25-2 then and only then will 25-1 get mapped in the channel 2-69 range. This took determination, but it still did not help my Guide+ devices find a host channel for the Guide+ data.
• Both Guide Plus devices will still gather the Guide Data from the local OTA PBS station with no trouble, so they are working.
• The local CBS station confirms they carry the Macrovision feed.
• Even if I remove the G-Link from the DTVpal and set it to stay on my local CBS station while the Guide Plus device is searching for a host channel, the Guide Plus device still does not download the Guide Plus data.
• The DTVpal is set to my local ZIP code.
• The Guide Plus devices ZIP code where tried with both the local zip code and the recommended alternate ZIP code shown in the manual for the local viewing area. Neither setting made any difference in the Guide Plus devices.

The whole reason I purchased the DTVpal Plus (without a coupon, it expired) was to see of it really could solve the Digital Transistion for my Analog NTSC devices. Charter Communications must have changes their PBS feed from analog to digital in Decatur, Alabama during the October 15 channel lineup because it stopped working on my cable. Charter Communications support has no clue about Guide+ and have done nothing to solve the problem. This is what led me to the DTVpal Plus. So, far the DTVpal Plus has failed with stations over the airwaves in providing Guide+ data for my Guide+ devices.


Outside of the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation, I find the DTVpal Plus to provide a very nice channel guide lineup with the Guide feature in the standard mode. It works quite well in the standard mode of operation. Although, I do like my colorful Guide Plus screen better.

More information will be posted when Dish responds to my latest communications. What I have learned about e-mail communication with Dish is it is a slow process and things get misinterpreted which can take another day or a week to get them back on the right track.

 

[oljim]

If I undersand you are hook up to cable and not a antenna ?

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

The DTVpal Plus is connected to rabbit ears for an Over the Air signal. It receives signals from all the major networks very well.

The DTVpal Plus does not seem to decoding Gemstar Guide Plus (TVGOS) data while in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation and pass it to my Guide Plus devices. In order for the TV Guide on my Guide Plus (TVGOS) devices to receive this type of data, the DTVpal Plus needs to be passing the Gemstar data through its output on the vertical blanking interval of the analog NTSC signal.

It is the Guide Plus (TVGOS) devices that were working on the cable, but still work on an Over the Air antenna.

 

[Smith P.]

Guys, please add to your observations your DTVPal FW version; so far Dish listed 5 or 6 current versions: F101...F106.

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

The Software Version for my DTVPal+ is:

F106TCHB-N

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

I feel like I am playing pin the tail on the donkey and the donkey keeps dancing like a politician.

Today, the Dish support folks stated the PSIP is not decoded and sent in Guide Plus format to the TV. The DTVpal+ builds the internal guide information from the PSIP information. The TVGOS mode simply passes the information. It was suggested that I use the DTVpal’s internal guide information.

This sounds like double talk to me. If the DTVpal does not send data to the TV in Gemstar Guide+ format on the VBI of the NTSC signal, then the Guide+ on the TV will never be populated with TV Guide programming information. But yet, they go on to say the DTVpal TVGOS mode passes the information. How? Magic?

I could not believe they suggested using the internal DTVpal+ programming menu. We have established that DTVpal+ works in the standard mode of operation. We have not established that the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation works other than accepting Scientific-Atlanta remote control commands to change channels via the G-Link control from a Guide Plus device.

That is all that is known to be working and that is not sufficient to satisfy any Guide Plus device for programming information.

So, I will go back to e-mail and once again try to narrow the focus of the question to pinpoint just exactly what the DTVpal is suppose to do in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation.

 

[kb7oeb]

Here is a list of TVGOS stations, my CBS is not sending the data so I can't try it.

RabbitEars.Info - Digital TVGOS Service List

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

Thanks for the updated TVGOS station service listing. My local CBS station confirms they carry the Macrovision distribution.

According to the support at Tech@echostar.com, I am not sure it really matters if the local CBS station carries the Macrovision feed at all, since they claim the DTVpal+ collects the programming information off the PSIP (Program System and Information Protocol) stream and builds the TV listing from this information to send to the TVGOS enabled device. This is what the folks at Echostar stated.

It is the sending of the data from the DTVpal+ to the Guide+ enabled device where the problem lies, if what Echostar states is true. It is clear the DTVpal+ works great in the standard mode of operation in getting the TV listings. So, I can only conclude it gets the listings from the PSIP just fine, but when it is placed in the TV Guide / Guide+ mode of operation the Guide+ enabled device never finds a host channel on the DTVpal+ to get its TV listing information. If what Echostar says is true, then the DTVpal+ is failing to create a host station with the proper data on the VBI of the NTSC signal.

The support from Tech@echostar.com went silent the past 2 days and they are not answering any more questions, not that they have answered any specific questions. The phone support and live help support at Dish has been absolutely useless. They simple apologize and tell you they cannot help you. More to follow…

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

Here is another update...

The folks at EchoStar to date have tried to pin the blame on my Guide+ devices and referred me to contact the manufacturers of those devices. Devices that have worked flawlessly on the Analog television feeds and continue to work on the OTA Analog TV feeds. EchoStar needs to train their staff on this issue, but I do realize these are new issues that have overloaded manufacturers in the transition.

EchoStar may have finally pinned the tail on the donkey by pointing their finger at Macrovision. I guess you will get lucky pointing the finger at somebody else eventually when you do not understand how your own product works. There seems to be no way to find intelligence at EchoStar on how their DTVPal Plus actually handles passing the TV Guide+ data to a TV Guide+ enabled device.

EchoStar stated in early February that a Macrovision representative would contact me about the issue. Nobody from Macrovision has contacted me about the DTVPal Plus issue to date.

Today, I received a response from Macrovision indicating that the Guide Data was down in my area, but this is in response to an issue I reported to them back in October 2008 when Charter Communications changed the local PBS and CBS analog feeds to digital feeds. Macrovision states they expect to resolve the issue within the next 6 weeks while they work to install equipment at the broadcast station. This may resolve my cable issue and hopefully my OTA digital signal so I can see if the DTVPal Plus really passes TV Guide+ data. I spoke with a representative at Macrovision back in October who was very helpful when my Guide+ devices first failed to update on a cable connection. He explained they would contact Charter Communications at that time to work with them on how to continue the TV Guide+ service for their users.

Based on technical talk from that discussion I doubt that the DTVPal Plus takes the PSIP data, as EchoStar stated, and builds Guide+ data to be transmitted to Guide+ enabled devices. I believe the DTVPal Plus simply passes a digital broadcast station signal and that digital feed is converted to an NTSC format with the data placed at the appropriate VBI just like the Closed Captioning data would be passed. I think it was mandated that all converter boxes must be capable of converting the CC data which works similar to how the TV Guide+ data is placed on an NTSC signal.

So, I guess I will wait with my fingers crossed and see what happens in a few months.

Since my last communication with EchoStar in early January 2009, I have called and visited numerous stores who handle HDTV’s with the TV Guide feature, mainly Sony Televisions since they advertise the TV Guide feature. Nobody (Sears, HH Gregg, Best Buy, Circuit City (now history), REX, etc.) could demonstrate the feature! Most of the stores say they have a satellite feed and they cannot demo the feature. I have asked each and everyone of them if I could hook up a pair of rabbit ears overnight to see if it actually works or not. None of the stores were willing to attempt receiving an OTA signal to see if it would work. Why would anybody purchase a TV with a feature that cannot be seen! What has happened to sales people? Are sales people really just cash register attendants these days? If you want to sell something you should be prepared to demo it! How can a company like Sony allow retailers to get away with this type of attitude as it does not promote their TV over anybody else’s TV. The marketing people have missed their calling. Will Macrovision let TIVO once again take the lead in the digital transition due to ignorance? Sony should mandate their resellers have the ability to demo their features or pull their product from unqualified retail stores. Perhaps, nobody really cares? Why put any features in a product if there is no return on the investment?

 

[osu1991]

Check out the threads at AVS Forums. Macrovison is having some problems right now around the country with the digital OnScreen data. The Pal+ conversion feature for the Version 7 onscreen devices and earlier is not currently working. The Pal+ will take the digital OnScreen info and convert it into a format that the legacy devices can understand, in theory.

 

[Hotrod-Houlihan]

The DTVPal Plus Guide+ feature is now working

About 4 weeks ago I received an email from the folks at TVGOS indicating some hardware updates would were being installed at the local broadcast station in the next 4-6 weeks. Last weekend, I noticed my TV Guide screen was populated with information on my RCA Guide+ TV connected to the Charter Communications cable. I quickly entered the diagnostic page on my TV and found the host channel is x0C which is cable channel 12 (WHIQ, PBS Station digital feed from Charter in analog format). I guess I was expecting the CBS station to handle the TV Guide, but it appears that the local PBS station is carrying the Guide+ information broadcast on their digital feed.
Charter switched from the analog feed to the digital feed back in October 2008 and this is when my Guide+ devices all lost their TV Guide information. This is the compelling event that led me to purchase the DTVPal Plus to see if it would decode a digital channel and provide the Guide+ information. This attempt to recover the Guide+ data from a digital TV station failed as outlined in an earlier post.

Since the new TVGOS hardware was added to my local PBS stations digital feed and my Guide+ devices are now receiving the TV Guide data, I decide to hook the DTVPal Plus to my RCA Guide+ enabled TV to see if it would work. The DTVPal Plus was placed in the Guide+ mode of operation and my RCA TV was setup accordingly using the special Zip Code listed in the manual, selecting Cable as the feed even though I am using rabbit ears, and selecting the cable box attached entry. When I turned the TV off it started sending the channel commands via the G-Link cable every 60 seconds to the DTVPal Plus as normal to scan from channel 2-99 looking for a host channel.

A few hours later I checked on the TV and notice the TV was no longer sending commands to change the channel on the DTVPal Plus box. This is very evident because the LED on the DTVPal does not flash when there are no commands send to it via the G-Link cable. Of course, my blood was pumping with excitement since that means the TV found a host channel or the firmware has crashed. I have never seen the firmware crash in my TV, so I immediately entered the diagnostic mode on my RCA TV to see what happened. To my surprise, the TV had found a host channel on channel 24 of the DTVPal Plus. As you might recall, I explained that the DTVPal Plus re-maps channels in the channel 2 through 99 range. This is how it works to be compatible with the Guide+ devices since they scan channels 2-99 by default. The folks at EchoStar were not aware of this even after I explained to them how their DTVPal Plus unit worked. In any event, the re-mapped channel 24 on the DTVPal Plus is actually digital channel 25-1, my local PBS broadcast station. I expected the CBS station to carry the Guide+ information from all that I had read about Macrovisions deal with CBS, but I find that the local PBS digital channel is carrying the information for Guide+. I guess it is easier for them since they carried the Guide+ on their analog feed (and still do).

I have connected my DTVPal Plus to my TV to see what happens. I set the DTVPal in the Guide+ mode and then setup my RCA Guide+ information using the special ZIP code supplied in the DTVPal Plus manual. This morning I had a hand full of stations populated in my Guide+ screen. However, it appears the stations in the listing are for Nashville, Chattanooga, and Birmingham. There are only 2 local stations in the Guide for Huntsville or Muscle Shoals, my local viewing area.

The good news is my TV did find a host channel and it stopped scanning channels 2-99 in an endless loop as reported initially. It is working!
So, I am happy to report that the DTVPal Plus with the firmware version I posted earlier, does indeed provide my analog Guide+ enabled devices with the Guide+ data expected on the vertical blanking pulse of the NTSC signal when the broadcast station is providing the proper information. It appears that the digital signal is simply decoded and converted into the NTSC format with the Guide+ data and the Closed Captioning data (basic federal requirement of all converter boxes) where they need to be.

It is unfortunate that EchoStar nor Macrovision publish's this information publicly as I am sure it has impacted some potential sales. I am just happy it works as advertised after all the numerous calls to Dish and EchoStar looking for answers with no help or resolution. These companies need to work on educating their staff about how their products perform so they can explain it to the end user. It does not have to be technical to an Engineering level, but they need to know how it interacts with a Guide+ device for basic troubleshooting purposes.

I will send Macrovision a brief on the channel listing problem, but there is a way to work around this problem. I simply went back and into my Guide+ setup on the RCA TV and set the Zip Code to 00000, turned the TV off, and then turned it back on. Again, I entered the Guide+ setup screen as an initial installation and used my normal Zip Code instead of the special Zip Code provided in the DTVPal Plus manual. The next day I re-entered the Guide+ setup and had 5 different channel lineups to choose from. I did not select any of them. Instead, I selected the custom or manual option to pick my channels from a list. Using the channel editor in the Guide+ menu I was able to select almost all of my local stations and assign the proper digital channel to them. See my earlier notes in the post on how to enter a corresponding digital channel. There are some digital channels (not main stream) that do not appear in the list and you will not get the TV Guide information for them, but all of the major network channels are listed with the exception of their minor digital channel numbers. For example, my local channel 19 is listed and I enter it as 291 in the channel editor, but channel 19-2 has no listing in the channel editor. This is where the Special Zip code would be nice if it was working and listed all the stations in the local area.

I am happy to report that the DTVPal Plus Guide+ mode of operation does work as advertised in the manual when a local broadcast station carries the information on the digital feed to satisfy the Guide+ enabled device. It was unfortunate, that it took this long to arrive at this conclusion. Dish and EchoStar clearly need to educate their staff on their product offerings and capabilities or at least direct their customers to somebody in their organization who can help explain how their products work. The Dish and EchoStar Management/Engineering staff infrastructure get a big “F” for failure to communicate. This is really a shame because the product does function the way it should, but nobody at Dish or EchoStar could articulate how the product works. If they did not hang up on me I got comments like: “it doesn’t work that way”, “you have to disable something, but I am not sure what it is…”, “the book says it does it”, “I cannot help you”, “You have to call the manufacturer of your Guide+ unit”, “You need to call Macrovision“, “I have no idea what you are talking about”, etc… Maybe you start to get the picture of what I am communicating about service that provides useless information or simply frustrates the customer.

The DTVPal Plus is great product with the EPG / TV Guide built-in along with the Guide+ device support. When will their Marketing , Engineering, and Support teams bring the synergy together to capitalize on the market? Oh, the opportunities that are being missed…