ESPN 4k / Not HDR (guide was wrong) / picture review (1 Viewer)

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bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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Caught todays ESPN 4k game on a nice 75"+ Sony OLED.

Oregon/Washington game.

SDR and obvious upconversion from 1080P.

Guide was wrong about HDR.
But the ESPN news release did say they were doing SDR and so they are.

Picture wasn't anything great.

I think Fox is doing better.

Color was good, but artifacts through out.

The brightness was high and the white Oregon uniforms were blooming and overexposed.
While the purple jerseys of Washington were too dark.

Nothing stood out that great except the closer shots of players.

Very disappointed from ESPN especially with the hyped info on the net about how long they've worked
to get this just right.

Better than the ABC HD channel but nothing to get impressed by.

All the graphics were upconverted and had loads of jaggies on all the edges.
Looked liked something from 30 years ago on their graphics side.
Really bad.

But I supposed it can only get better from here.

When is the question.
How many more years until real 100% 4k HDR in sports in the USA.

All that money ESPN spent but the results are just nothing special.

At least if they had gone the HDR route you would get an improvement even in 1080P.

bjf
 
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longhorn23

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Nov 21, 2017
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I haven't had much time to watch today's ESPN broadcast just yet. From the little I saw earlier today, I thought LSU/Florida game looked a little better than this week's ESPN game but that could also be from my preference of night games looking better. But from everything I've read, they are using 4k cameras and I could def notice the difference last week. Unless if something changed from last week to this week, it should be the same 4k cameras. But I'll watch later this weekend and see if I notice a difference. Also they had dolby atmos on today's game but I thought the crowd sound was overpowering the announcers talking.

Caught todays ESPN 4k game on a nice 75"+ Sony OLED.

Oregon/Washington game.

SDR and obvious upconversion from 1080P.

Guide was wrong about HDR.
But the ESPN news release did say they were doing SDR and so they are.

Picture wasn't anything great.

I think Fox is doing better.

Color was good, but artifacts through out.

The brightness was high and the white Oregon uniforms were blooming and overexposed.
While the purple jerseys of Washington were too dark.

Nothing stood out that great except the closer shots of players.

Very disappointed from ESPN especially with the hyped info on the net about how long they've worked
to get this just right.

Better than the ABC HD channel but nothing to get impressed by.

All the graphics were upconverted and had loads of jaggies on all the edges.
Looked liked something from 30 years ago on their graphics side.
Really bad.

But I supposed it can only get better from here.

When is the question.
How many more years until real 100% 4k HDR in sports in the USA.

All that money ESPN spent but the results are just nothing special.

At least if they had gone the HDR route you would get an improvement even in 1080P.

bjf
 

slice1900

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Feb 14, 2015
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It is ABC's first 4K broadcast, give them some time to get things fixed. It wasn't like Fox, NBC and CBS got everything right the first time. Or second time, or third time, or ...

Especially where HDR is concerned there is no "right" way to do it, so they basically have to tweak and see what works for the largest number of TVs out there. Then tell everyone else to adjust theirs lol
 

bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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I hear ya slice1900 but gotta disagree a bit.

ESPN said in that article posted a while back,

ESPN To Broadcast Its First Sporting Event in Live Native 4K


“After months of planning and technical testing, we are excited sports fans can watch 4K UHD College Football ........."

and there another press release they went on about how great their 4k was....

Note they've tested and worked on this for Months.
So now they are letting us see their signal and it's not that great.
So are they just inept?
I mean Disney's massive money and ESPN finally getting off it's ass to bring out sports in 4k and then we get it in SDR and
with lots of various artifacts.

Of course it will get better but they bragged themselves up like they were inventing the wheel.

And even though they will not say it , it's obvious that it's 1080P upconverted to 4k.

And the graphics look like s###.

And they had a blueprint to go by with Fox already doing all that learning curve.
They just stole what they were already doing and tweaked it.

They are also lying about it being real 4k,etc. , just like Fox.

I'm happy to have anything but what I saw was a pathetic version of 4k for that Oregon / Wash. game.

Even the water on the lens created rainbow artifacts and it was overcast in the stadium.
You even saw this on the HD ABC channel. The edges of the wide angle shots looked blurry.

The grass looked like garbage for sharpness even compared to Fox.

If they've tested for MONTHS then why are we seeing all these flaws.
I'm guessing they are just doing this on the cheap. But it's ESPN so no surprise there.

It can only get better but when!

And regarding HDR.
From all I'm reading HLG is the only choice they are all using for live sports and anything live.
Keyword is live.

Broadcast industry will also use HLG from what I've read.

The Olympics were tape delayed and sent out either HLG or HDR10.

Everything streaming that is not live can be any of the various formats.

But live is one choice only and so ESPN should have been able do it from day one.
In fact it would have been the smart move to do 100% HDR on everything with ESPN.
From a marketing point of view they could have made themselves look more on top of 4k.

If you are old enough 20 years back when HD was brand new there was a dedicated HD channel.
The first I think called HDNET. Mark Cuban owned it and was hugely pro HD and wanted it here now.

To date we have nothing like this for 4K and that's part of the problem.

A 24/7 FULL 4K HDR Channel for sports and variety . Everything sourced from Full 100% 4K / 4K HDR cameras and full 4K studio / editing all the way to the viewer at home.

That is what someone needs to offer.

Or a paid streaming version of it.

Next year I'm guessing Samsung will have a 8K video recording smart phone.
China already has one from a China company. Apple might be there too.
In the meantime we can't even get live sports in 4K for the bulk of the pro leagues and college.

I hope ESPN gets it together soon.
Just tired of waiting for years for this and then getting sub-par 4k picture quality.

And as we all know the Olympics have been doing the best quality on the planet for several years now.
And sourcing from 8k and full studio 8k. They should all have emulated that blueprint. They got it right.

bjf
 

slice1900

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Disagree with me about what? It was ESPN/ABC's first 4K event ever. If you believed all their hype and thought it would be beautiful and problem free when no one else was able to do that with their first 4K broadcast (and arguably still can't) then that's on you.
 

bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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I guess I wasn't clear enough.
ESPN has been doing full production of games or sports end to end in test mode.
This has been going on for a long time. The bugs were worked about behind the scenes.
Before you, me and the world could see the first live ESPN 4k game.
That is what the press release pointed to.

This was NOT day one going live in any way shape or form.
They were not so stupid that they would just try it out and hope for the best and then look like idiots.

The first game they did was their version of a finished job.
They were ready to give us the a live 4k sporting event.
Their first for us but very likely they've done dozens of them and got their crew ready and completely
comfortable.

They spent bucks to look like the big man on campus on day ONE.

I could not see game 1 but did see game 2 Oregon v. Wash.
And it was quite disappointing from a quality 4k tech. point of view.
Lots of problems.
Which I've pointed out.

There you go.

You are giving the impressive just give 'em a break and in time they will get it together.
My point is they already HAVE had time and they are not impressing me with the job they are doing.

This isn't some Mom and Pop company this is DISNEY WITH DISNEY MONEY.
ABC and ESPN know how to shoot live sports. There is no excuse for substandard live sports video.
This ain't re-inventing the wheel with 4k production.
HD WAS a major change this is minor except for HDR (which they said they are only doing SDR so even that was not a hurdle with their 4k production).

Hopefully this time you got the jist of what my point was.

If you feel ESPN is just doing a peachy job. Good for you.

I don't think they are and WE all deserve much better from them, NOW.

bjf
 

Jimbo

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I see an issue ....
You KEEP referring to the Olympics you saw that were Stunning ....

Now we find out that it WASN'T Live ??????

I thought you were talking about Live ....
If it's Not Live, they can do a whole lot more with it ...

Your clearly not comparing Apples to Apples.

Everyone here is Happy to have better pictures, none of us are saying that its Perfect or anything near what it WILL be ... but were all accepting the fact that they are working on it.
Except YOU.

It must Suck to expect perfection right from the start of a new technology.
 
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longhorn23

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If you watched the LSU Florida game, you would have been more impressed. It was obvious to me and everyone else who watched with me that it was real 4k. And like you, I always refer to the Olympics because that's the best 4K I've ever seen since it was actually 8k cameras being used. But this LSU Florida game was really close to impressing me as much as the Olympics.. One of the most impressive 4k sporting events I've seen.

I guess I wasn't clear enough.
ESPN has been doing full production of games or sports end to end in test mode.
This has been going on for a long time. The bugs were worked about behind the scenes.
Before you, me and the world could see the first live ESPN 4k game.
That is what the press release pointed to.

This was NOT day one going live in any way shape or form.
They were not so stupid that they would just try it out and hope for the best and then look like idiots.

The first game they did was their version of a finished job.
They were ready to give us the a live 4k sporting event.
Their first for us but very likely they've done dozens of them and got their crew ready and completely
comfortable.

They spent bucks to look like the big man on campus on day ONE.

I could not see game 1 but did see game 2 Oregon v. Wash.
And it was quite disappointing from a quality 4k tech. point of view.
Lots of problems.
Which I've pointed out.

There you go.

You are giving the impressive just give 'em a break and in time they will get it together.
My point is they already HAVE had time and they are not impressing me with the job they are doing.

This isn't some Mom and Pop company this is DISNEY WITH DISNEY MONEY.
ABC and ESPN know how to shoot live sports. There is no excuse for substandard live sports video.
This ain't re-inventing the wheel with 4k production.
HD WAS a major change this is minor except for HDR (which they said they are only doing SDR so even that was not a hurdle with their 4k production).

Hopefully this time you got the jist of what my point was.

If you feel ESPN is just doing a peachy job. Good for you.

I don't think they are and WE all deserve much better from them, NOW.

bjf
 
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Jimbo

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If you watched the LSU Florida game, you would have been more impressed. It was obvious to me and everyone else who watched with me that it was real 4k. And like you, I always refer to the Olympics because that's the best 4K I've ever seen since it was actually 8k cameras being used. But this LSU Florida game was really close to impressing me as much as the Olympics.. One of the most impressive 4k sporting events I've seen.
What channel / Network was the LSU game on ?
Is there another one coming up ?
 

comp9

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Jan 24, 2017
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If you watched the LSU Florida game, you would have been more impressed. It was obvious to me and everyone else who watched with me that it was real 4k. And like you, I always refer to the Olympics because that's the best 4K I've ever seen since it was actually 8k cameras being used. But this LSU Florida game was really close to impressing me as much as the Olympics.. One of the most impressive 4k sporting events I've seen.
But the Olympics wasnt live... All of that content can be cleaned up and brought closer to the delivery point to increase bandwidth.
 

slice1900

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Feb 14, 2015
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I guess I wasn't clear enough.
ESPN has been doing full production of games or sports end to end in test mode.
This has been going on for a long time. The bugs were worked about behind the scenes.
Before you, me and the world could see the first live ESPN 4k game.
That is what the press release pointed to.


So what? Everyone does that, you don't think the first time NBC or Fox did a 4K football game they hadn't done tons of tests as well? The point is that they can test all they want but that doesn't mean there won't be plenty of problems they don't see until they are delivered to customer homes. If internal testing was sufficient to detect all problems, a new Windows, Android, iOS etc. release would always be bug-free.
 

bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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So what? Everyone does that, you don't think the first time NBC or Fox did a 4K football game they hadn't done tons of tests as well? The point is that they can test all they want but that doesn't mean there won't be plenty of problems they don't see until they are delivered to customer homes. If internal testing was sufficient to detect all problems, a new Windows, Android, iOS etc. release would always be bug-free.


As ESPN stated they've working on this for a long time and just now brought it out publicly.
Now that it's ready for primetime. But the game I saw was not.

ESPN made sure they told us to plan on great things with their 4k.
So that is my basis for expectation. They told viewers to expect it.
As I said for the Oregon / Wash. game they did not deliver.
You can argue your take 'till the cows come home but I am going by their own press.

That said, Longhorn23 was impressed by the first LSU game, which I didn't see,
and in reading his posts he seems to know what he's talking about regarding good quality.
His posts are always worth reading.

I will try and see more of ESPN 4k games and hope to see great things.

Wished they had a replay or put in on ESPN+ to see.

I would bet a bundle that will happen soon.
ESPN 4K streaming for $30 - 50 bucks a month.
They're not going to waste their time on a few games.
It's got to be plans finally for a full 4k sports network or streaming package.

bjf
 
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bjf

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Jimbo,

Regarding the 4k Olympics for US viewers of cable and satellite it was always tape / time delayed.
Not for tech reasons but for not giving it too us before the HD live chanels. God knows why the idiots at NBC did that.

But I think everyone viewing the 4k both times, already knew that..... Um, years ago. LOL

bjf
 

Jimbo

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Jimbo,

Regarding the 4k Olympics for US viewers of cable and satellite it was always tape / time delayed.
Not for tech reasons but for not giving it too us before the HD live chanels. God knows why the idiots at NBC did that.

But I think everyone viewing the 4k both times, already knew that..... Um, years ago. LOL

bjf
Thats my point, if your showing something taped or delayed, you can make it look much better than the Live signal.
 
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slice1900

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Thats my point, if your showing something taped or delayed, you can make it look much better than the Live signal.

Yep, compressing stuff live isn't nearly as efficient, so a given bandwidth on a live broadcast is probably equal to about 50% of that bandwidth on something pre-packaged.
 

bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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I rather doubt the Olympics held back on the " 8K " sourced downconvert, just to make sure the 4K looked as good as possible.

Honestly..

The 8K was sent LIVE back to Japan and possibly South Korea to jumbo screens and well connected people.
This was a test for future tv. They were supposed to show it at some large venues for regular people to see.
No tweaking needed.

The 4K was delayed by NBC for the SAME reason the World Series and Superbowl will not be in 4k.
They don't was viewers eyes not on the the HD screens for commercials and ratings.

Once again that was all common knowledge at the time.

BTW, the repeated it a few times.
You know I think you're right.
Each time they must have tweaked it.
It looked better each time. Sharper and clearer thant he first showing. LOL

I will be interested if this finally changes for live 4K for the USA for next years Olympics.
EVERY event will be shown LIVE IN JAPAN (maybe S. Korea) in 8k from the articles I've read.
I believe samsung will heavily push 8K tv's just for this event.
I think they will be able to get this both terrestrial antenna and satellite.

Wish we weren't so far back in technology.

bjf
 
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bjf

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should have added in the other post, do you really think NBC is going to take the time and money to do a specialized amount of time on a
daily 4K feed during the Olympics, just to make that picture look even more stunning in 4k for a few thousand viewers.

NBC / Comcast cable company , LOL

Spend time and money so we get even more amazing 4k.

This was one and done.

Downconvert and send it out.

And the downconvert probably was done at the moment of sending it out to the states.

With no fanfare for the 4k channel.
No large quantity of viewers.

Fewer if you have to have a HDR tv set last time around.

No the reality is the Olympics 8K original production end to end downconverted to 4K LOOKED STUNNING!!!
With any of the things you seem to think occurred.
This ain't no Hollywood film where they aren't tweaking for a Bluray or Netflix film.
You couldn't buy this period. They aren't making more money. They didn't bother doing anything to make it look better.
It looked great out of the converter in real time.

Really, NBC / Comcast spend a dime.
What were you thinking! LOL

It's almost shocking NBC even bothered with 4k for the Olympics.
They gave that atypical NBC way of not really part of the club treatment for the Olympics.
That said it's more enjoyable to not have some of their terrible announcing team on the 4k
version. I'm sure that will be shortlived.

If only we could get the international Olympics feed (4k) and skip NBC altogether.
I'd be happy to pay Never hearing or watching NBC hosts / announcers again would make
it so much better.

bjf
 

Jimbo

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I rather doubt the Olympics held back on the " 8K " sourced downconvert, just to make sure the 4K looked as good as possible.

Honestly..

The 8K was sent LIVE back to Japan and possibly South Korea to jumbo screens and well connected people.
This was a test for future tv. They were supposed to show it at some large venues for regular people to see.
No tweaking needed.

The 4K was delayed by NBC for the SAME reason the World Series and Superbowl will not be in 4k.
They don't was viewers eyes not on the the HD screens for commercials and ratings.

Once again that was all common knowledge at the time.

BTW, the repeated it a few times.
You know I think you're right.
Each time they must have tweaked it.
It looked better each time. Sharper and clearer thant he first showing. LOL

I will be interested if this finally changes for live 4K for the USA for next years Olympics.
EVERY event will be shown LIVE IN JAPAN (maybe S. Korea) in 8k from the articles I've read.
I believe samsung will heavily push 8K tv's just for this event.
I think they will be able to get this both terrestrial antenna and satellite.

Wish we weren't so far back in technology.

bjf
Very likely, seeing Samsung is the only one here that has an 8k TV at this time.
 

bjf

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Sep 28, 2004
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Looks like in a brief search for 8K tv brands.

In Japan Sharp is selling 8K tv's also so that to the list with Samsung.

Not sure about Sony.

But TCL was due to have one in the states and they delayed until 2020.

Not sure if they have one out in S. Korea or Japan.

Not sure what Vizio is doing.
Or if they have that brand to sell in Asia.

I'm sure there will soon be loads of China made brands of 8K sets for 1/2 the price or less than the major brands.

Can't happen soon enough for me.

bjf
 
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