fta questions

[TuxCoder]

I have a few [frequently asked?] questions about FTA. If there is a good FAQ on this that answers these, I'm fine with a swift reply containing the URL. And such a URL should be added to the sticky "welcome to the fta forum" thread.

1) What good FTA receivers do you recommend? I'm the kind of person that needs the ability to "scan the arc" (as I think they say) to my heart's content to see what channels are available periodically. Also I'm not interested in any that are "hackable" (unless their legit features are nice but unavailable elsewhere).

2) I have a SuperDish 105 and DP34 switch (and AT120+locals, Showtime subscription, DVR522). It sure would be nice to just strap the FTA receiver into a DP34 port but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the DishPro stuff isn't DiSeqC (sp?) compatible, which is what the FTA receivers would need?

3) How necessary is the positioning motor (if I can't just use the SuperDish 105)? If I had to get a separate dish (preferably 30" or smaller) for FTA, would there be an optimal fixed position to point it to for the most free channels? Or, would two fixed dishes be worth the extra channels? FWIW, I live in Ohio.

3b) If the motor really is necessary, does that mean I have to wait a significant time for it to turn each time I tune to a channel that ends up being at another location? For me, "significant" is 4 or more seconds, and I don't imagine the motor would be able to swing around and accurately aim in that time. Also, do the motors have decent mean-time-between-failure if they are always moving the dish back and forth? Do they often need recalibrated?

4) According to Lyngsat, the channels are DVB (most of them), Digicipher 1 or 2, NTSC, or PAL. For my TVs, PAL is probably out of the question, but do the receivers work with all of those formats?

Thanks anyone who might answer some of these, and I promise I will reward the good answers with further questions.

 

[PSB]

Heres a good link that should help.....

http://www.coolstf.com/mpeg/

1. There are so many good receivers out there its hard to say, everyone has their favorite, I use a BEC 2000 that has DiSEqC 1.2 that I use to motor my dish, and a Satwork 3618 to do blind scans, some Pansats can do it all, as does the Satwork 3688 it also has Diseqc 1.2.

2. I don't think a FTA system can be integrated easily with a Superdish and switch, I think it would be best to keep them as two separate systems.

3. You would need a 30" dish minimum and your super dish cant really be used I would not go there as it will just make the setup more difficult at this point, it can be a challenge, I think the G 10 satellite is fast becoming the satellite with the most desired FTA programing, and T5 has the most FTA international channels but I could never go back to only having access to one or two satellites I want them all : )

3b.
As above I feel the motor is necessary for the FTA hobby, I started by just moving the dish by hand but adding the motor is the best thing I have done for a long time, I still get a kick when it moves! IT can take 10-15 seconds moving from one side of the arc (The Clarke Belt) to the other, that may be too much for you by the way you are talking in your post, but its worth the wait!

4.
If you look at the list of FTA channels on Lyngsat you get all the green channels with DVB, most receivers now work with Pal and NTSC, they can be set to switch automatically depending on the broadcast.

I am sure the other guys will fill in anything I left out, great idea about the sticky!

 

[Mr Tony]

I have a few [frequently asked?] questions about FTA. If there is a good FAQ on this that answers these, I'm fine with a swift reply containing the URL. And such a URL should be added to the sticky "welcome to the fta forum" thread.

1) What good FTA receivers do you recommend? I'm the kind of person that needs the ability to "scan the arc" (as I think they say) to my heart's content to see what channels are available periodically. Also I'm not interested in any that are "hackable" (unless their legit features are nice but unavailable elsewhere).

for receivers, I recommend either the Pansat 1500 or 2500 or the Satworks 3688. All 3 can run a motor and have "blind" or "smart" search (you dont need to know the frequency & stuff. It finds it for you

2) I have a SuperDish 105 and DP34 switch (and AT120+locals, Showtime subscription, DVR522). It sure would be nice to just strap the FTA receiver into a DP34 port but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the DishPro stuff isn't DiSeqC (sp?) compatible, which is what the FTA receivers would need?

Since the DP34 switch combines both 110 & 119, the FTA reciver wouldnt know which satellite to pick from (all DBS satellites use the same frequencies)

3) How necessary is the positioning motor (if I can't just use the SuperDish 105)? If I had to get a separate dish (preferably 30" or smaller) for FTA, would there be an optimal fixed position to point it to for the most free channels? Or, would two fixed dishes be worth the extra channels? FWIW, I live in Ohio.

30" is the minimum for FTA. A DBS dish could get the audio only channels on Dish or ExpressVu, but thats about it. If you are looking for news feeds, I suggest T6 (now IA6) at 93. For Networks from around the country, G10 (123) is the best. Ethnic channels would be on IA5 (97). Its all what you're looking for

3b) If the motor really is necessary, does that mean I have to wait a significant time for it to turn each time I tune to a channel that ends up being at another location? For me, "significant" is 4 or more seconds, and I don't imagine the motor would be able to swing around and accurately aim in that time. Also, do the motors have decent mean-time-between-failure if they are always moving the dish back and forth? Do they often need recalibrated?

A motor really isn't necessary (I went about 5 months without one..use to manually move the dish), but it is a nice feature.
As for the time moving from satellite to satellite, if you're going from AMC6 at 72W to G10 at 123, it takes about 25 seconds. Thats about the farthest between satellites you'll go. Mostly its within 5 seconds or so. I've had my motor since April and never had a problem yet. Accurate as ever. I woould worry if I was running a 1.2 meter dish on these motors, but my little 30" works great

4) According to Lyngsat, the channels are DVB (most of them), Digicipher 1 or 2, NTSC, or PAL. For my TVs, PAL is probably out of the question, but do the receivers work with all of those formats?

no..DVB is FTA. Digicipher I & II are the cousins to the C-Band system. NTSC is analog (the old C-Band). FTA receivers only work with DVB. Believe me, there are many stations not listed on Lyngsat.

Thanks anyone who might answer some of these, and I promise I will reward the good answers with further questions.

That's what we're here for

 

[TuxCoder]

Thanks PSB and Iceberg, now I've done some further reading and have come up with the following on my wish list:
* Pansat 2500A (very nice features)
* Winegard 30" dish (more durable than hot dish?)
* Standard Ku LNB (perhaps better signal quality than universal?)
* SG2100 motor (seems most popular)

And as luck would have it, here seems to be a decent deal for exactly this setup, on another thread here:

...
I will be getting several 2500A's in about 10 days for the awesome price of $160.00 each. ($9.00 shipping CON-US ONLY)
...
If you want a 30" Dish, Std Ku LNB, and SG2100 Motor then add 160.00 (Plus $40 shipping)

Any feedback (yes/no/agree/disagree) on my notes in parenthesis above would be helpful but I'm probably already biased so it's not too important.

However, a few other questions come to mind:

1) Does lyngsat or anyone have a list of what's offered specifically at each orbital slot and not necessarily enumerated by satellite? This would help me decide where to place the dish since there are a couple trees obstructing my complete view of the southern sky. If there is no list, I'll put a shell script to work with wget to automagically generate one from lyngsat.

2) What are some good structural points on the house to mount the 30" dish and motor? I'd rather this one go either on my roof or maybe on my wooden privacy deck fence (fairly sturdy). I live in a "front-back" split-level that is shaped like a shortened two-story, with the garage attached at the side. My personal preference would be to attach to the end of the roof peak either (a) on the main house roof above the garage roof, or (b) on the garage roof above the ground. I hope those descriptions made sense . If it means anything, my house has its back facing about 20 degrees west of south.

3) Why does lyngsat's free-tv page list some channels that are only digicipher 2? For example, "Casa Club TV" is designated in pink (does that mean C-band?) and is only listed as Digicipher 2. Isn't that a non-free encryption format?

4) Sort of off-topic, but not really... Even though I've more-or-less decided on the 2500A, are there any FTA DVB-S receivers that will also receive digital OTA broadcasts? Digital OTA looks tempting as well but I don't have any digital tuners otherwise.

Thanks again and I look forward to learning more about this.
Jason

 

[Mr Tony]

Thanks PSB and Iceberg, now I've done some further reading and have come up with the following on my wish list:
* Pansat 2500A (very nice features)
* Winegard 30" dish (more durable than hot dish?)
* Standard Ku LNB (perhaps better signal quality than universal?)
* SG2100 motor (seems most popular)

And as luck would have it, here seems to be a decent deal for exactly this setup, on another thread here:

Any feedback (yes/no/agree/disagree) on my notes in parenthesis above would be helpful but I'm probably already biased so it's not too important.

The winegard is a better dish...The hotdish is great for one spot, but if you move it, then it can get flimsy

However, a few other questions come to mind:

1) Does lyngsat or anyone have a list of what's offered specifically at each orbital slot and not necessarily enumerated by satellite? This would help me decide where to place the dish since there are a couple trees obstructing my complete view of the southern sky. If there is no list, I'll put a shell script to work with wget to automagically generate one from lyngsat.

Lyngsat is the best for that...there is some stuff that isnt on there
They list most everything (minus feeds). G10 and IA5 are the most common

2) What are some good structural points on the house to mount the 30" dish and motor? I'd rather this one go either on my roof or maybe on my wooden privacy deck fence (fairly sturdy). I live in a "front-back" split-level that is shaped like a shortened two-story, with the garage attached at the side. My personal preference would be to attach to the end of the roof peak either (a) on the main house roof above the garage roof, or (b) on the garage roof above the ground. I hope those descriptions made sense . If it means anything, my house has its back facing about 20 degrees west of south.

Mine is on the roof...anything sturdy will work

3) Why does lyngsat's free-tv page list some channels that are only digicipher 2? For example, "Casa Club TV" is designated in pink (does that mean C-band?) and is only listed as Digicipher 2. Isn't that a non-free encryption format?

pink is C-Band
Digicipher II is 4DTV..there is some free 4DTV, but those receievrs are much money
Green DVB is the ones you can get with a FTA receiver

4) Sort of off-topic, but not really... Even though I've more-or-less decided on the 2500A, are there any FTA DVB-S receivers that will also receive digital OTA broadcasts? Digital OTA looks tempting as well but I don't have any digital tuners otherwise.

Thanks again and I look forward to learning more about this.
Jason

Can't help you on this one...sorry

 

[TuxCoder]

Thanks again for the info.

When mounting the dish & motor to the roof, do I still need to put a small mast up to ensure 'plumb'-ity-ful-ness?

Also, I'm all for the ECM's used by E* & friends but as long as they don't disturb my subscribing 522 and the honest Pansat I'll be getting. I assume in order for there to be any remote possibility for the Pansat to be bricked by an ECM from E*, that would mean I would have to be tuned into an E* bird (which therefore requires a DBS LNB)? I'll just be getting the Ku LNB so hopefully that answers my question.

Last, I had asked about lyngsat listing the FTA channels by orbital slot but I don't think I worded my question right. I meant I would like a way to simply take a quick look and see which sats have the most FTA. I went ahead and wrote a shell script that spits out an automatically generated text version of lyngsat's html, with slight formatting geared toward parsing to perform different kinds of 'queries'. More in my next post.

 

[TuxCoder]

For those reading this that don't have access to a Unix/Linux/*nix system, this post probably won't interest you.

For all others, try out the attached script (freetv.txt). It was developed for use with the GNU versions of everything but may run on others (BSD, etc.) perhaps with some tweaking. Rename the file as freetv.sh and you can do many things with it, as follows:

To generate a basic text version of the lyngsat free tv html listing, simply run the script and optionally pipe or redirect it:
./freetv.sh > free.txt

Then the fun begins. To filter only the Ku-DVB stuff:
grep "| Ku.*DVB$" free.txt > ku-dvb.txt

Then maybe you want to sort by satellite. Easy enough:
sort -t '|' -k 2 ku-dvb.txt > ku-dvb-bysat.txt
or sort the original full list:
sort -t '|' -k 2 free.txt > free-bysat.txt

Finally, and here's what I wanted to do from the start. Display a quick count of what's listed for each satellite and show in ascending order with the satellite with the most FTA at the bottom (requires a second text file listing the satellites)... IMPORTANT - replace {TAB} below with a literal TAB character (0x9), i.e. in bash you can press CTRL+V then TAB:

cut -f 1 sats.txt | (while read A; do echo `grep " $A{TAB}" ku-dvb.txt | wc -l`: $A; done) | sort -n

or of course replace ku-dvb.txt with free.txt to get a count from the whole list.

With standard Unix style tools about anything can be done!
:shocked

Jason

 

[Mr Tony]

Thanks again for the info.

When mounting the dish & motor to the roof, do I still need to put a small mast up to ensure 'plumb'-ity-ful-ness?

as long as the mast is plumb, you'll be fine

Also, I'm all for the ECM's used by E* & friends but as long as they don't disturb my subscribing 522 and the honest Pansat I'll be getting. I assume in order for there to be any remote possibility for the Pansat to be bricked by an ECM from E*, that would mean I would have to be tuned into an E* bird (which therefore requires a DBS LNB)? I'll just be getting the Ku LNB so hopefully that answers my question.

I've had my Pansat during the time they've been sending the ECM's, and have no problems. I have a ExpressVu LNB line and a Dish 119 line to the receiver. All I have on these are the legit Free channels (the audio ones)

Last, I had asked about lyngsat listing the FTA channels by orbital slot but I don't think I worded my question right. I meant I would like a way to simply take a quick look and see which sats have the most FTA. I went ahead and wrote a shell script that spits out an automatically generated text version of lyngsat's html, with slight formatting geared toward parsing to perform different kinds of 'queries'. More in my next post.

each person has their favorite satellites
-people who want ethnic stuff would use IA5
-I like G10 (the newtorks)
-PSB likes IA6 (news feeds)

honestly its personal preference.....but with a motor, you can see them all!!

 

[TuxCoder]

as long as the mast is plumb, you'll be fine

Well I have no mast or pole of any sort right now, just the roof peak... but I understand the motor & dish need something as close to 100% level as I can get, to mount on. So I suppose that answers my question, that I'll need to get a pole and somehow attach it to the peak?

 

[Mr Tony]

When you buy a dish, it does come with a pole

Yes, the pole has to be plumb...or ity wont work right and be a pain in the ars to aim.

 

[PSB]

The dish usually comes with a (small) mast depending on what side of the roof the dish is going on this may be all you need, I just done a 30" hotdish motor mount on a down sloping roof and it worked fine, nice and low close to the roof, these larger dish should be as low as possible if it has to go on the roof, try to put it at the bottom or halfway up but you want to keep it away from the top and the wind, as that can become just as bad a problem as rain fade!

 

[TuxCoder]

That's good that it comes with a pole. Now all I'll need to add is some RG6 cable, right? And to get that, basically my only option is to find a spool which could be expensive? I'm not sure how much of a run I'll need but I would say it will be at least 60 feet.

I'm a little worried about placement and LOS. By eyeballing it, my neighbors' nice large tree looks to be right were G10R is, and it sounds to me like that will be my favorite bird. To add salt to the wound, one of my own trees, the only other possible obstacle, is right about where IA5 & 6 are.

I took my compass and climbed up on my roof last night to do some real measurements. I'm not sure I totally understand magnetic deviation, but it looks like for my part of Ohio I add 4 degrees to what the compass shows. So, that means "true south" for me is the line pointing at "184 degrees" as read from the compass?

Anyways, the edge of the neighbors' tree is 240 as read from the compass, so going the other way and subtracting 4 that's really at a 236 degree angle from where the dish will be? According to the azimuth calculator at http://www.csgnetwork.com/antennasatelazposcalc.html, G10R is at 231.5 degrees for me, but add 4 to look at the compass and it's 235.5? Or since I already tell it my location is it smart enough to account for magnetic deviation in its calculation?

My own tree is from 200 to 220 as read from the compass, so that's really 196 to 216? That sucks because if my math is right, that blocks IA5 (199.5+4=203.5) and IA6 (193.6+4=197.6).

Man that's a lot of questions? Almost everything else in this post ends with a question mark, no reason to stop now?

Thanks! (no question about that)
Jason?

 

[PSB]

Well that sucks? You are right you still need to adjust the angles for the magnetic pull or deviation, maybe if you can get your dish up HIGH enough it will clear the trees, I would not let a few missing birds put you off, there is still alot up there, I am sure you know the satellites are much higher than where the dish seems to be pointing, I know I am grasping at straws here : (

Maybe this will help workout the size of trees you can see over, I love trees but sometimes they seem to be conspiring against us : )

http://www.bjup.com/services/bjhomesat/tech_support/obstacle.html

 

[PSB]

Maybe time to make a cardboard site survey tool (compass/inclinometer)

 

[Cascade]

killall trees

 

[peekay]

Hi,

Hi, I'm in Canada, off work and bored at the moment, reading the whole internet, felt like saying something, hope you don't mind?

I have a friend that bought this blackbird receiver which he described to me a few months ago as "free to air" anyway, I happened to be speaking to him today on the phone and I just asked him, is that thing any good? He then informed me that it's been down for weeks, he gets nothing on it.

some deal huh?

I'm a little confused by the whole thing, he told me before that it gets all these channels that are free, like you would if you had a big antenna. But, today he told me he was getting Dish network and Bell Xpressview which are not free to air at all so that must be illegal, right?

anyway, now he gets nothing at all. So now, out of boredom I did a search on the web and ended up here and the first thing I seen were posts, on another board I guess, that were saying that these free to air receivers are throwing a big scare into dish net and all that as they can't touch them...

which is why I became tempted to post, in case anyone is thinking about forking over hundreds of dollars for one of those things, they can and are being knocked out of service. I don't know anything other than that but I just wanted to let you people here know that and now you do...if you didn't already.

I hope this isn't an unwelcome intrusion, I just felt I should pass that on.

peekay

 

[Mr Tony]

Hi, I'm in Canada, off work and bored at the moment, reading the whole internet, felt like saying something, hope you don't mind?

not a problem...that's what we're here for. It may be edited, but we'll listen

I have a friend that bought this blackbird receiver which he described to me a few months ago as "free to air" anyway, I happened to be speaking to him today on the phone and I just asked him, is that thing any good? He then informed me that it's been down for weeks, he gets nothing on it.

some deal huh?

I'm a little confused by the whole thing, he told me before that it gets all these channels that are free, like you would if you had a big antenna. But, today he told me he was getting Dish network and Bell Xpressview which are not free to air at all so that must be illegal, right?

The blackbird is programmed to ILLEGALLY get Dish & ExpressVu. The problem is the losers that sell it say "oh, it's legal"....no it isn't
Dish & EVu are changing the encryption all the time, so it screws them up (hee hee)

anyway, now he gets nothing at all. So now, out of boredom I did a search on the web and ended up here and the first thing I seen were posts, on another board I guess, that were saying that these free to air receivers are throwing a big scare into dish net and all that as they can't touch them...

Dish and EVu are already combatting this You must be reading the hack boards......love the lies there.

which is why I became tempted to post, in case anyone is thinking about forking over hundreds of dollars for one of those things, they can and are being knocked out of service. I don't know anything other than that but I just wanted to let you people here know that and now you do...if you didn't already.

I hope this isn't an unwelcome intrusion, I just felt I should pass that on.

peekay

Thanks for the news.

btw: I decided not to edit this, as it doesnt specifically talk about hacking.

 

[PSB]

Its only going to be a matter of time until all these hack boxes go under, then the over inflated prices will crash and they will not be able to give away these hacked receivers, lets face it folks people are not queuing up wanting Pansats just because it has the USALS feature when they could have a Satwork 3688 that does everything else the Pansat does much cheaper , it is a concern to say the least. I would never lower myself to steal TV, too much on FTA!

 

[ckudrna]

A new method of authentication for subscriber boxes has to put into place, and I would think this would be coming in the near future.

DirecTV, DISH, Voom, and all the others have a lot more well trained staff working to make a more secured system, it is just not possible for a 19 year old pansat "software engineer" to be one step ahead of some major companies in terms of box authentication.

If access cards are currently not being used to provide more authentication, and these cards can readily be altered to make boxes function or not used at all and have boxes function, what is the point of a smart card? Sure they look cool, but are they really a good option for better box level authentication?

What else could be done? What vehicle for uniquely identifying subscription receivers can be used that cannot be spoofed in any way?

I would be curious to know just how hard the big sat companies are working on new and better ways to authenticate paying receivers and block out the thieves.

 

[sksatellite]

I really would like to see the satellite position count from the receiver, this way we know which sat we are watching just like old C band day.