grounding in attic question

[redbandit98]

hello all, I am prepping my house for an install. I have not yet even set it up but i want to get a few things ironed out. First off I need to know what kind of grounding needs to be done. As of now, I have no grounding on my dish at all. The original dish guy never put one in, and for good reason. The problem is there is no easy way to ground it. It is about 125 feet from the house and the coax is strung through the air. My house sits lower than where the dish is so the cable runs directly out from my attic to a big oak tree where it is supported there and then runs to a light pole. From there it goes into the ground and over to the dish pole. There is a ditch in between where the sat is and the house so burying conduit to the house is not an option. Also, Ive read you cant drive a ground rod and just use it they must be bonded with the house. (which is stupid being as though in a detached garage/building you are required to drive a seperate ground rod and not bond it to your house ground) Im not worried about the NEC or building codes. I am just worrying about the guy putting it in passing his inspection. The reason I am not worrying about the building codes is a ground rod driven in the ground beside the dish is just as good as it being bonded to the ground rod going into your service entrance. There is no difference in my opinion. Anyways, I was wondering if I was to run him a ground wire from my box into the attic if he could tie into it up there in a jbox and would that meet his requirement? Im doing all this ahead of time becuase I know they will not do it at the time of install. Some would say pull the ground back where it goes into the attic and run it down the side of the house and bond it at the service entrance. I am not going to do that becuase I dont want a wire going down the side of my house.

thanks for any input

 

[stardust3]

Everyone has their own opinions on grounding. Either way the only approved ground is the house bond back to power. That said wouldn't it be easier to run coax to the ground than to bring the ground to the coax?

 

[Van]

Well if the installer cares about getting dinged and a charge back or a write up if he's inhouse then he will ground the entire system according to dns specs and nec specs. If you have home owners or renters insurance and something happens in relation to the dish system then the adjuster will go through that entire system and could hold up any claim pay out leaving you to figure out whether you want to take it to court or pay for the repairs rebuild yourself.

As to grounding in the attic thats a no no so let the installer do it right but you may find he wont touch your system with the coax strung through the air as none of the coax that dish or its subs use is airial rated and airial line runs are not approved install options. Situations and installs like yours is what dish has been dealing with for years and the industry as a hole has had problems with sub par installs causing property and financial damage so thats why dish has made strict rules and has been enforcing them for the last 5 years now.

 

[stardust3]

Cable companies are pioneers in aerial drops. With the millions out there in the air, I disagree that the same practices cannot be applied to satellite with the proper attachments and clearances. What's the difference?

 

[redbandit98]

Like I said, all of this was done by the dish guy, not me. I dont see how in the world you could get the RG6 over to the pole without going through the air. It may be that I might not be able to get a dish and have to go with cable if this is the case. There is no other place to put the dish due to trees. As far as the attic grounding, I can not see how its any different than bonding something in the crawl space. You have your water pipe bonded to the main panel in the crawlspace. What is the difference between bonding it there than in the atttic? Both are bare ground wires going to the main panel which are bonded to the ground bus which is attached to the ground rod outside. I know its hard to tell a persons "attiute" over the interent. I want to make sure you guys understand I am not trying to be a smart a$$ or pain. I am just asking questions and giving my point of view on it. If I knew what to do I would not be asking. I just wanted to clear that up because after reading my post it kind of sounds like Im coming off in a bad way, which i assure you i am not. I also agree with the above, I had cable and it came right off the pole into the side of the house, just the same as what the dish does now.
thanks guys
matt

 

[stardust3]

In my opinion if you can't bond back to power, I wouldn't even bother with anything else.............

 

[redbandit98]

I dont understand what you mean by bonding back to power. You run a bare #8 ground wire to your service grounding rod from the satellite and bond it. You run a bare #8 wire from your electric box to a jbox and bond it wherever. You drive a ground rod, run a #6 bare ground and bond it to your service ground rod and then bond it to the dish What is the difference?

 

[gadgetguru63]

Grounding in the attic takes the ground into the house to be dissipated. That is dangerous. Let the installer and his manager make the call.

 

[redbandit98]

well, I wont argue about the ground situation as we all have different views of what is right and wrong. Just so you guys know though, I went out and looked over the situation real good and went and talked to them down at dish. Long story short I could not upgrade without paying a bunch of money. I talked to one of their installers and he told me he would put the dish in a bucket of concrete if I wanted.haha He said he could care less if the cable is in the air, ground or what. Long as it had good connections and was secured. Well I hated it being in the air anyways so I reluctantly got out my pick axe and dug one hellacious trench around the ditch, around some trees, etc. When the guy gets there, all he will have to do is hook up to my wiring. I am not 100 percent sure on the number of coax to run and I posted a question in the Direct Tv forum. I am running a 1.5" conduit to the pole stubbed out with a 90 and a peckerhead at the dish. At the other end I am going to go into some sort of jbox that I have not determined what kind and where to get it yet. Im guessing due to lack of time, I wil just use a universal one I can get at lowes or somewhere. thanks for everyones input on my original question.
Matt

 

[royd]

Everyone has their own opinions on grounding. Either way the only approved ground is the house bond back to power. That said wouldn't it be easier to run coax to the ground than to bring the ground to the coax?

This is the correct answer
Forget the conduit I'd go with direct bury cable forget the Dish
its on a pole in the ground 150' away
Ground the Coax just before it enters your house
bond that to the power ground
get a coax ground block run the ground wire down and around to where the power ground rod is or
Since you now have a trench enter the house where the power or phone line comes in not the attic should be a easy ground

 

[redbandit98]

I am going to mount a jbox on the side of the house where I plan to go into. Its only about 3 ft off the ground. I dont want the wire going up the side of my house where the phone line goes in. (it goes in through the eve and is grounded via the service entrance pole) Yes, I am going to go with a burial cable. The trench is too winding to put conduit in. I am just going to bury 6 cables so I will have a spare set in case something happens. I am going to mount the grounding block in the jbox and run 1 1/2 conduit down to a 90 in the ground to protect it from the weedeater. I will probably run the ground wire down through a 1/2 conduit for the same purpose. I am then going to tie it to the service entrance ground. I also lucked out on the pole, I just sank a 1 5/8 galvenized pole in the ground since I thought I was going with dish. Well now that Im going with direct I needed a 2" pole. I thought about just putting the 2" over the old pipe and bolting it so it wouldnt move. HOWEVER,,I dug around here at work and found a ton of old stainless tubes that are cut into 4ft sections. I put a set collar on them and welded them together. I also welded me a piece of unitstrut so I could clamp the conduit to the pole. Its gonna be a little more work to dig the old pole up and put the new one in but this one should never rust and is the correct 2" OD without any type of rigging.
:up

EDIT: While I got you guys here, is 4ft about right for the height of the pole? I think thats about where I have it now. 3.5' would actually be better for me since I could put the collar I welded the two pieces together with underground. That just seems a tad bit too short but I dont install these things for a living.

 

[Claude Greiner]

Depends on how deep you are digging the trench, on wether or not you put everything in conduit.

If you just spend a few days going down a foot, by all means put in plastic conduit. If you spent an hour going down a few inches then just put the cable in the ground without conduit.

As far as grounding, if you want to go by the book then by all means ground the system and bond with the electrical.

If you don't ground it, its probably not going to make a difference as your really protecting agenst static and not a direct lightning strike.

 

[Stevenje98]

Ok, this can be done.

You can use aerial cable, but it has to be rated for outside use. This RG6 cable has a ground leader on the outside jacket of the RG6 and has its own jacket around #8 or # 12 copper. It’s heavy stuff. You can order this form an electrical supply. Dish Network will not have this I’m sure. You will have to support this cable over 125 feet one place minimum in the center. At both ends will need a wedge clamp one on the house and the termination point at the dish. You cannot support any electrical or low voltage cable from a tree. Once at the house you will have to bond it to the electrical panel. Bring up a #8 bare copper to the attic to a j-box. If you cannot do this inside of the home, use schedule 80 electrical conduit from the panel to the J-box. Then paint it. This seems to be the only option you have. Electrical Supply stores might have it in stock if not they can order it for you. You can also check out coleman cable on the net. I think they still carry this. Comcast still uses this for long spans between buildings, so I know they make it. I did a building last year with this type cable. I usually dont do low voltage only the high voltage.

 

[Claude Greiner]

I have never seen RG6 with a #8 or #12 Copper wire attatched.

All the messenger cable I have seen, usually has an 18 gauge steel wire.

 

[Stevenje98]

I have never seen RG6 with a #8 or #12 Copper wire attatched.

All the messenger cable I have seen, usually has an 18 gauge steel wire.

your right on this. 18 ga, I think it;s 17 ga now. Vextra made the heavy RG6 with #8 or 12. I think it was 12ga for this job It might have been a special order. It was heavy cable. I had to use the greenlee puller for this. Maybe a single #8 from some triplex pulled with the RG6 for this situation. The triplex could be used as the ground. Still heay though. but less expensive then the custom cable from Vextra. a 3 person job for sure. would meet the NEC code too.

 

[Claude Greiner]

Before I would special order a box of cable, it would probably be cheaper to run a seperate ground wire.

I would hate to see the costs on the special order cable, with a #8 attatched to RG6 your probably looking at $500+ per 1000 foot box if not more.

You can use the 17 or 18 gauge messenger cable to ground the Dish. Keep in mind all your doing is bonding everything together to give the static electricity a path to the earth.

If your truely trying to protect agenst lightning, your going to need something as thick as your thumb in the 2-3 Ought range

 

[Stevenje98]

Before I would special order a box of cable, it would probably be cheaper to run a seperate ground wire.

I would hate to see the costs on the special order cable, with a #8 attatched to RG6 your probably looking at $500+ per 1000 foot box if not more.

You can use the 17 or 18 gauge messenger cable to ground the Dish. Keep in mind all your doing is bonding everything together to give the static electricity a path to the earth.

If your truely trying to protect agenst lightning, your going to need something as thick as your thumb in the 2-3 Ought range

If it's just static 17-18 ga will work fine. That is good for 300 Volts.

 

[redbandit98]

well Im about half done with the whole shebang. The stainless pole is setting in concrete. Ive got a 1 1/2 conduit stubbed out with a weatherhead on it. The trench is dug and I am going to get the rg6 today after work. I got my j box and am gonna pull the holes in it today at work. Once I lay the cable in the trench, its just a matter of going through the wall and mounting my jbox on the house. Thanks for all your input.