Hey Ergen, Show Us The $$$....love, Tivo

dragon002

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Mar 7, 2005
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TiVo Suit Vs. EchoStar to Begin This Week


DALLAS - In a case beginning this week, a Texas jury will be asked to decide whether satellite-TV giant EchoStar Communications Corp. stole TiVo Inc.'s technology that lets viewers skip the commercials.
TiVo claims that EchoStar, which operates the Dish satellite network, violated TiVo patent on technology used to record one program while playing back another. TiVo is seeking unspecified damages.

The trial is scheduled to start Wednesday in U.S. district court in Marshall, 150 miles east of Dallas, and last about two weeks.

If TiVo wins, it could sue cable companies that offer other set-top boxes or at least force them to pay licensing fees. Defeat would probably relegate TiVo to a niche place in the market it created, analysts say.

TiVo produced a stand-alone digital video recorders, or DVR, in 1997 and changed the way Americans watch TV. It now has more than 4 million subscribers, but TiVo's growth slowed as EchoStar and cable companies offered other DVRs, usually at lower prices.

EchoStar, the nation's second-biggest satellite TV provider, produced its first DVR in 1999 and now offers free boxes to new customers.

Neither TiVo, based in Alviso, Calif., nor Englewood, Colo.-based EchoStar would comment.

In its lawsuit, TiVo charged that EchoStar's set-top box violates TiVo's patent for a "multimedia time warping system" developed by a half-dozen engineers in California. Lawyers familiar with patent cases say TiVo hopes for a verdict that would pay it millions - a sum equal to what EchoStar would have paid TiVo to license its technology the past five years.

EchoStar lawyers denied that the satellite company infringed on the patent, and they said the patent is invalid anyway. EchoStar also filed a countersuit, which is scheduled for trial next year in Texarkana.

TiVo's lawsuit includes engineering diagrams and a dense description of how a TiVo box works. Testimony is likely to be highly technical, and both sides likely will call expert witnesses.

On a simpler level, TiVo lawyers have said they will portray their client as an underdog. EchoStar earned $1.5 billion on sales of $8.4 billion last year, while TiVo hasn't earned a profit yet and 2005 sales were just $172 million.

By suing EchoStar in East Texas, the TiVo lawyers also picked an area considered kind to plaintiffs.

"The David-versus-Goliath strategy may play very well in a courtroom like this," said Brian Coyne, an analyst with Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co. who has followed the case closely. "But this case is a big attention drain for (TiVo) management. They would be better off focusing on fixing their distribution system" with cable operators.

April Horace, an analyst with Hoefer & Arnett Inc., said that even if TiVo wins, it probably won't sue cable companies that use other set-top boxes because it is negotiating deals with them. It recently struck a deal with Comcast Corp. to produce a box that will carry the TiVo name and may offer additional functions, including downloading video from the Internet.

Still, Horace said, TiVo faces stiff competition from box makers including Motorola Inc., NDS, which is owned by News Corp., and Scientific-Atlanta Inc., which is being acquired by Cisco Systems Inc. And its relationship with satellite-TV provider DirecTV Group, which accounts for about half of new TiVo subscribers, will end early next year.

"TiVo might be able to carve out a niche, but it's competing against large corporations with significantly larger R&D efforts and much deeper pockets," Horace said. "I'm concerned about the long-term fundamentals of their business."

TiVo is trying to stay ahead of the competition by introducing remote programming of DVRs from the Internet and cell phones, and loading of TV programs on personal computers, iPods and other devices.

TiVo executives have said they are developing more products for patent.
 
BWWWWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

$200,000,000.00 plus

gotta love old charlie, crack it open and copy it!!

i hear DIRECTV is going in as a friend of the court.

HAHAHAHAHA!

he is going to pay through the nose!!
 
dragon002 said:
BWWWWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

$200,000,000.00 plus

gotta love old charlie, crack it open and copy it!!

i hear DIRECTV is going in as a friend of the court.

HAHAHAHAHA!

he is going to pay through the nose!!

It's great to see a post from someone who is an expert in patent law and can render their expert opinion or maybe not. Or perhaps you like rooting for a company who caved to the National Association of Broadcasters and took out the 30 second commerical skip feature over the company who didn't cave.
 
rocatman said:
It's great to see a post from someone who is an expert in patent law and can render their expert opinion or maybe not. Or perhaps you like rooting for a company who caved to the National Association of Broadcasters and took out the 30 second commerical skip feature over the company who didn't cave.

New Tivos don't have the 30-second skip?
 
Stargazer said:
If Dish would have to pay then why would DirecTv not have to pay with their new boxes that they have out now?
Because D*'s new mpeg4 DVR will not have tivo features as far as I know. Thats why it will probably suck. no 30 second skip. :rolleyes: D* does have an agreement with Tivo for the existing boxes. Not sure what will happen with the existing HD tivo after that relationship ends though. Will D* just turn our HR10-250's off to avoid a lawsuit?
 
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It's not just the 30 second skip. It's the whole idea of "time warping" - recording for later viewing and using a hard disk, etc.
 
navychop said:
It's not just the 30 second skip. It's the whole idea of "time warping" - recording for later viewing and using a hard disk, etc.
LMAO, Tivo cant seriously think they have the rights to time warping. Weve been doing that with VCR's and tape for yearssss. I see Tivo losing this one.
 
vurbano said:
LMAO, Tivo cant seriously think they have the rights to time warping. Weve been doing that with VCR's and tape for yearssss. I see Tivo losing this one.


I don't think TIVO is gonna win. The patents is qustion are way to vague.
 
I hope you're right.

But the patents that RIM had to pay off on weren't considered valid either. The most important one was revoked, the others were expected to be revoked. But the court system was used against them, and time was running out. I hope a similar situation doesn't befall Echostar - and all other DVR makers.
 
vurbano said:
LMAO, Tivo cant seriously think they have the rights to time warping. Weve been doing that with VCR's and tape for yearssss. I see Tivo losing this one.

Really, you can do that with VCR tapes? You could rewind while its recording?

Everybody else DVR is just copy cat of Tivo! There is nothing like Tivo. Echo can keep their never be abel to voice sync properly, non(Wannabe) name base recording 625, 622 and 942 but it will never be an DVR like Tivo.

I install and trout E* DVR everyday but I consider them to be inferior to DirecTivos
 
ZawNH-VT said:
I install and trout E* DVR everyday but I consider them to be inferior to DirecTivos
That's you opinion, and you would be would be incorrect when it comes to the 942/622. I cringe whenever I visit my friend and his slow-as-molasses DirecTivo...may as well keep it tuned to one station. Instead of trying to patent such abstract things like "air" the "fast forward" button and "skip forward" perhaps they should spend more time trying to build an effective business model and less time filing frivolous lawsuits. The folks at Tivo should be crying...at the failure of their leadership.:river

Tivo says, "We're going bankrupt...let's sue our competitors since we're incapable of marketing our products and, by-the-way, we just noticed their technology is so much better than ours."

Tivo's 2007 Product List: sue EchoStar, sue Motorola (UCentric), sue DirecTV, sue Cisco (Scientific-Atlanta), sue Microsoft, sue, sue, sue.

I recently purchased a Sony ATSC/QAM HD DVR that came with TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS). TVGOS provides basic programing guide date and, while it's no Tivo Service, it works pretty well. Oh, I forgot to mention...it is FREE! No need to spend $19.95 on Tivo Service.
 
Tivo's so great? Never made a profit. Clearly something's wrong. Turning to lawyers to save your bacon sometimes works, but doesn't fix your REAL problems.

And there doesn't seem to be a D* HD MPEG-4 capable version of Tivo in the future- that D* contract ends in early 2007 & will not be renewed. Most of their customers are D* customers, and it's looking grim. Maybe the cableco deals will keep them in business. Maybe they can sell their software. Somebody might be able to take it, add features and speed it up.

I think we've got the same Sony HD DVR. The guide data is certainly FAR superior to the PSIP the stations normally provide.
 
ZawNH-VT said:
Really, you can do that with VCR tapes?
The issue was time shifting. Yes VCR's do that. Record something now for later viewing while your watching something else now. PC's and Media centers can too. And they can rewind. Is tivo going to sue all of the PC makers and Bill Gates too? :rolleyes:
 
vurbano said:
The issue was time shifting. Yes VCR's do that. Record something now for later viewing while your watching something else now. PC's and Media centers can too. And they can rewind. Is tivo going to sue all of the PC makers and Bill Gates too? :rolleyes:

I just bought a DVR/DVD recorder about 3 weeks ago. Sure its no Tivo (it doesnt buffer automatically) but I can record a show and start at the beginning while its still recording and edit out commercials so I can copy it to a DVD or copy to a tape with the commercials gone. and there is no monthly charge :)
 
navychop said:
I think we've got the same Sony HD DVR. The guide data is certainly FAR superior to the PSIP the stations normally provide.
We have a DHG-HDD500 and it works well...set it and forget it. I just fear losing TVGOS guide data once they turn off the analog stations since TVGOS currently doesn't support PSIP. Anyway, I guess I should add Sony to the above list since they have programmable "Skip Back" "Skip Forward" and other "Guide" features Tivo has certainly patented.

Damn...I knew I should have patented "double-click" back in the 80s.:rolleyes:
 
Iceberg said:
I just bought a DVR/DVD recorder about 3 weeks ago. Sure its no Tivo (it doesnt buffer automatically) but I can record a show and start at the beginning while its still recording and edit out commercials so I can copy it to a DVD or copy to a tape with the commercials gone. and there is no monthly charge :)

They had better watch out Tivo's gonna sue them :rolleyes: I hope everyone starts to see how ridiculous this lawsuit is. I just dont see how you can claim to have a patent on this kind of technology.
 
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