I'm probably obsessing (again) ..winter install?

[cparker]

Ok, I am admittedly probably overthinking this, but that's what I do.

I am preparing house#2 to move into and then will sell house #1 (and THEN I'll move into house #2).
House #2 currently has no dish install, but I will want it when I move in. At this time it appears likely that we won't be moving in before December.

From an installer's perspective how hard is it to install in December in western NY?
This is almost certainly going to be an eave install on a ranch home (single story)

If I want the dishes on the END of the house at the gable end (eaves about 18") then I need to get up there and trim back a maple tree a little bit. OR I could move the dish location to about 12 feet from the gable end, still on the eaves (about 2 feet eaves here) and not have to trim anything. These locations satisfy my wife's "I don't want to see them from the street" request and provide good LOS to both the 110/119 and the 61.5 orbitals.

I hate that the last time they did an eaves install (on House #1) they ran the coax over the gutter. Black coax on white siding. Lovely.

Would it be worth it to me to put a couple of commdeck mounts up there and just say, "Put them there" when it comes time for an install? Or should I trim back the maple, go for the eaves install, and then just have the coax entering the gable end of the garage. I have my RG6 runs for the house already run into the garage for this.

I would love to NOT have them on the roof, but my wife doesn't want them as part of the landscaping when she looks out the window in the back yard.

Photos might help.... I'll see if I can find my wife's house pictures...

Ok... http://picasaweb.google.com/slms1989/GriffinStreet#5221812821240719442 is the front of the house for general orientation. If you stand on the driveway, facing the garage doors, you're facing east. You can see that the south side of the house has a line of pine trees. I am confident that I've got enough elevation to the 110/119 orbital to look over those trees without a problem.

http://picasaweb.google.com/slms1989/GriffinStreet#5214359586456534610 is the gable end of the garage. Tree cover in this photo looks much worse than it actually is. To put a dish on this eave almost to the back corner of the house, would require me to trim off one branch on the maple and it's not that big. Most of what you see as tree cover in this photo is actually behind the house and would not interfere with LOS.

http://picasaweb.google.com/slms1989/GriffinStreet#5214359109715164578 is the back wall of the house. The soffits here are not only vinyl clad, but also slanted so I don't think a soffit mount would work here. If you see that little light on the back of the house, there's a people-door into the garage there. If I mount 2 dishes above that door, I wouldn't have to trim any trees, but they'd probably run the coax over the gutter and that just looks ugly. Unless they carry white coax with them.

Or should I consider something like this
http://www.dishmountproducts.com/wm-200.html
and hope that no part of it is low enough for someone to whack their head on?

 

[Quantum]

No idea what you've got there. Might be trees block the shots from most perspectives, greatly limiting options.

Since you seem to have time, look up the coordinates here, then buy a Suunto Tandem and locate those birds precisely. Then you can see where the antennae can go.

I can often hide the cable by running it down behind a downspout (tie-wraps), but usually have to go round the gutter, as flashing laps over the back of it. Winter? Neither rain, nor sleet, nor dark of night, nor risk of serious injury or death over our pitiful $40 bucks usually stops us...

 

[cparker]

Quantum,

Thank. That site basically tells me that if I use the back of the garage over that door as a dish location, the trees would have to be 40 feet higher than the dish to be of concern. I doubt those trees are more than 15 or 20 feet above the dish height. That's for 110/119. There is clear LOS to 61.5. So I was pretty accurate with my drafting triangle and compass.

So then it becomes.... do I try to install mounts or do I leave it alone and let the installer worry about it?

 

[Quantum]

We get basically minimum wage after you consider expenses, OK? If it were me, I'd go ahead and do it, to ensure watertightness. A good way is to keep them on the roof overhang (in case of future leaks), use 2"x3/8" lag bolts and try and get some in a rafter, and put a nice ring of silicone around each bolthole on the roof side of the mounting-plate.

 

[OoTLink]

Having wires go around the gutter to go under the eave seems like such a non-issue to me (compared to having possible water leaks)..... I guess if you really don't want to see the wires you could paint over them or something.

I almost said if you're that worried cut the gutter off XD

 

[cparker]

Having wires go around the gutter to go under the eave seems like such a non-issue to me (compared to having possible water leaks).

Yeah I know it sounds kinda petty, but it also interferes with cleaning the gutters when they get leaves and junk in them.

It's also bugging me (just a little bit) that the prevailing winds come from the front of the house. Up here that means that if we get a heavy snowfall it's likely going to form snow drifts on that back roof. I have a real strong suspicion I'll be out there using a roof rake to clear snow from around the dishes.

Oh well.

 

[Liquidforce88]

Couple things for you to consider. I don't know about your area, but in Michigan this applies.

1. If you have the cable enter the house above the garage, it has to be grounded to the house electric with in 5' of entry into the house. Most of the time there is not a spot to ground in the garage rafters, so we can't enter the building unless we run cables to the ground then back.

2. That fancy mount you posted a link to, will not pass Dish code. We are not allowed to mount to a wall or brick. Even if you put the mount up we could not use it. If we goto service calls and find a Dish mounted to the wall of a house we have to remove it.

3. White cable is not allowed to be used outdoors, as it is not UV rated.

Our only mounting allowed locations are on the roof over the eves not over the living space unless we have no other line of site, or on a pole.

 

[Andrewwski]

I think they install in pretty much anything (OK, probably not windy whiteout conditions, but I see the trucks all winter).

Intertech pretty much does all the installs around here...and they're not always known for making them the prettiest. My advice is to run all the cables yourself ahead of time and just let them set up the dish. I'd try to run the cable through the roof to the attic (tar it up real good then), and then fish down from the attic to the basement if you need to. Seeing as it's a single story you should be able to just use a fishtape down an interior wall (a non-insulated wall is best).

That way you don't have to wrap it around the gutter or go across/down the side of the house. It looks much nicer. It's a little extra work, but it's worth it.

Generally they don't give you an issue with grounding either. I don't know what the exact codes are here but I know they don't follow them either way, at least as far as distance goes. I've seen them attach ground blocks to the natural gas pipe...nice.

 

[cparker]

Yeah I have the cable run into the garage. It's the garage roof they'd be installing on. I'm going to mount a board in the garage to mount the switches and run a ground to .... well there's a grounded outlet right below where I am mounting the board. The electricians that just wired the entire house said that using the ground in that outlet box is a perfectly fine ground for the dish. "It'll dissipate static just fine which is all you can really do. Any talk of a lightning strike and all bets are off. I don't care HOW you have it grounded. Lightning does screwy stuff."

 

[Liquidforce88]

Yeah I have the cable run into the garage. It's the garage roof they'd be installing on. I'm going to mount a board in the garage to mount the switches and run a ground to .... well there's a grounded outlet right below where I am mounting the board. The electricians that just wired the entire house said that using the ground in that outlet box is a perfectly fine ground for the dish. "It'll dissipate static just fine which is all you can really do. Any talk of a lightning strike and all bets are off. I don't care HOW you have it grounded. Lightning does screwy stuff."

What your electrician said is true, but it does not meet code. Still a failed install in Dishes eye's and the NEC. Hope you never have a fire as it would be perfect for your insurance company to deny the claim.

 

[585960]

Also, the 5' rule for grounding inside a house is the water pipe source, pretty sure of that. You can have more than 5' of line in a home before grounding.

 

[cparker]

The water pipes enter the house at the extreme opposite end of the house and dishes can't be mounted there due to LOS issues. I have concrete sidewalks right up tight against the house all the way around the garage so there's no place to even drive a grounding rod.

The new electric panel has a ground that goes outside and is buried and it also has grounding to the water pipe entrance (where it also jumps the water meter). The rules for grounding are confusing as hell. Should I run a wire inside the house to the water pipes entrance and bug it to the electrical grounding there? Or should I run it all the way around the house and tie it into the outside ground? Either way is going to be a fairly long run of wire. Probably 75 to 100 feet easy. Inside path to water pipes is much shorter than outside path around the house.

 

[Quantum]

Ground wire must be =>10ga, and run no more than 20' to a pipe, panel, or conduit.

 

[585960]

Ground wire must be =>10ga, and run no more than 20' to a pipe, panel, or conduit.

yes, no more than 20', and the water pipe must be within 5' of its entry to the house. 20' run is maximum for GW line, and conduit won't pass DNS code.

 

[cparker]

So it's gotta be #10... ok no problem... but it can only be 20 feet? How the heck would you accomplish that if your grounding location is on the opposite side of the house?

Locate the dish in close proximity to the panel location? Not possible in this case. I do have another pipe... it's about a 4" copper line going out to the old septic tank (now abandoned as they've put sewers in), however THAT pipe isn't bonded to the rest of the water supply pipes which ARE bonded to the electric panel.

OK this might be a dumb question, but I'm dumb so I'm asking it...
If the electric panel has a ground going outside (to earth) AND is bonded to the copper water lines in the house at the pipe entrance, AND they jumped the meter so there's continuity of ground (hoping that's the right way to put it) ... isn't that whole copper plumbing system pretty darn well grounded? There's a continuous copper pipe (several of them actually) going to that pipe entrance location, which is freshly and thoroughly connected to the new electric panel. I can't see how a piece of #10 copper wire.... running all the way from the rear, east corner of the house to the front, west corner of the house and connected to the pipe entrance, could possibly be any better of a ground than clamping it to a copper pipe that's only 15 feet or so from the proposed dish location.

AND... you're telling me it would basically be an exercise in futility to go and buy 100 feet of #10 copper and run that wire to the pipe entry point because it would be more than 20 feet and therefore not meet code anyways..... right?

If all of this is correct, then technically I can't have a dish.

OR... I can take the most reasonable approach feasible in this situation and just ground the darn thing to the copper plumbing 15 feet away. Plumbing that I can SEE is connected to my electric panel at the other end.

I know this probably isn't technically correct per NEC, but NEC isn't law... it's guidelines. So in PRACTICAL terms.... is what I'm proposing about the only way to go?

In simplest terms, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this... the copper water supply plumbing is bonded to the electrical panel by virtue of those shiny new connections the electricians put on the pipes.... on both sides of the meter... within 5 feet (1 foot actually) of the pipe entrance into the house. There are no non-conductive connections in that copper plumbing. It's all solder connections and copper-to-copper.

A connection to that supply plumbing then becomes part of that system and is properly grounded and bonded to the panel by virtue of those connections I mentioned.

In PRACTICAL terms, this seems like a whole lot better ground than if I were to pound a copper rod in the ground near teh dish and hope for the best.

After further pondering....
I have a 4" copper pipe exiting the basement at the rear of the house. Easily reachable from the proposed satellite location AND extending more than 30 feet under ground away from the house. If I clamped THAT to the water pipes and then grounded the dish to it within 5 feet of the wall penetration (it would actually be within 2 feet as there's only 2 feet of it left in the house), would THAT be better? Useable? Against NEC...

 

[Agonizing Fury]

That fancy mount you posted a link to, will not pass Dish code. We are not allowed to mount to a wall or brick. Even if you put the mount up we could not use it. If we goto service calls and find a Dish mounted to the wall of a house we have to remove it.

Can you post a source for this? Our CQI still lists requirements for wall mounts and our DNS warehouse used to stock that exact wall mount. (They might still, but I have never used one, so I don't know if they do still or not). Our warehouse still stocks the lag inserts for mounting to brick as well, and I have used them many times.

 

[Quantum]

cparker, technically if the ground (rod or Ufer) is more than 20' away, we are supposed to drive a new ground rod for the dish, and join that rod with the house rod using no less than #8 copper wire. We run into this problem all the time, and the only solution is to punt. What do you do when the dish is 3 stories up? Or in an apartment 150' from the rod? Punt, you guessed it.

Practically, yes that 4" pipe (4" copper?! Really?) would be just fine. Clamp it to the domestic cold-water with #8, to prevent a ground-loop.

 

[Liquidforce88]

What we are required to do if the ground source is on the opposite side of the house?
We are required to run the cable from the dish to the ground source, then run cable back to the point of entry into the house.

Yup we are supposed to wrap your house in cable. Kinda stupid don't you think.

That copper line comming out of the house does not meet code for a ground point.

Where you can ground.

1.At the Electrical panel, as long as it is within 5' of the entry point of the cable.
2.The copper ground wire at the service entry point. Where your power meter is.
3.To the boned cold water supply within 5' of the entry into the house. Another words where your water supply comes into the house, if it is bonded to the electric, then you can bond to that pipe within 5'.

Number 2 is where I try to ground every system. Basically they can't say it's not grounded properly is this situation.

Here is what that looks like.

 

[cparker]

Practically, yes that 4" pipe (4" copper?! Really?) would be just fine. Clamp it to the domestic cold-water with #8, to prevent a ground-loop.

Yeah back in 1960 I guess copper was cheap. I have some of that same 4" copper in this house. I think they were built by the same builder back then. The new house is only 2 streets over from where we are now.

So bonding that 4" copper pipe back to the cold water pipe would be kinda like driving another copper rod, and bonding it, if I'm understanding this correctly.

Would I simply bond it to the cold water pipe that's about a foot away from it? Or would I have to bond it all the way across the basement at the point where the water supply pipes enter the house?

And to maybe save a couple vollies back and forth..... if I can bond that 4" copper pipe to the cold water pipe right next to it (instead of going all the way across the basement to where the water pipes enter the house) then why couldn't I just ground to that same cold water pipe?

If you meant I should bond that 4" copper pipe by running a wire all the way across the basement to get to the entry point, then I can see that the previous question is nulled. However that brings up another one.

If I have to run a wire all the way across the basement to bond that 4 inch copper pipe at the water supply entry point, then why couldn't I just run a ground wire that distance instead? I mean... aren't we essentially doing the same thing in either case?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand this a little better. It might be the terminology.

Bonding... grounding... I know there's a technical difference in their somewhere, but aren't they both just electrical connections? And in this case don't they all go to ground?

Here is where my confusion lies I think...
If I can BOND that 4 inch copper pipe to the cold water pipe that is a foot away from it... why can't I just ground the dishes and coax grounding block to that same water pipe?
Conversely... if I have to run a wire all the way to the water pipe entry point... why can't I just use that wire to ground the dishes and coax grounding block INSTEAD of bonding the 4 inch copper with it and THEN grounding to the 4inch copper?

See what I mean? Right now I'm feeling exceptionally old and dumb. And I know I'm not. I just set up a patch panel in the basement of the new house and pulled cat5e everywhere, so that teh phone guy coming in Wednesday can bring his demarc over near the patch panel and set me up such that any cat5e jack in the house can be either DSL, Voice, or data. I have terminated RG6 quad with watertight compression connectors, I am repairing a swirled plaster ceiling that was originally created in 1960, replacing 2 toilets, installing a dishwasher where there was no hookup for one (I've created them).... but this dish-grounding thing is making feel like an idiot EVEN THOUGH I understand what differential potential is between 2 unbonded grounding rods.

See why I'm frustrated?

 

[Liquidforce88]

I Know it's a pain in hoo hoo.

But look at it this way. Lets say your dish gets hit by a large amount of electricity. Enough that it is going to melt all the cable from the dish to the ground block. I have seen this happen more than once. You want that ground block to be very close to the point where that cable enters the house, or on the outside.

You also want the ground wire to be as close to the ground as possible, I.E. the cold water pipe at the point it comes into the house or the electrical ground. So it has a very short run to ground. If you just hook onto the cold water system anywhere, if a large spike hits it is going to energize the whole system before it gets back to ground.

Will the ground wire inside an electrical box drain static, sure it will. Will the cold water drain static, sure it will. What if something more powerful than static hit's that system?

An example of #1 above. You can't see it in the picture but the green ground wire goes to the copper ground wire that leads outside.