Important Clarification (1 Viewer)

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Jeff_R

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 8, 2003
224
0
Sacramento, CA
Weezknight said:
The question is, though, if they end MPEG-2 completely won't they be legally required to upgrade my equipment for free if I'm still in a contracted commitment for my programming?

As long as they keep your current programming available to you, they don't have to do a thing. If they convert all current HD channels to MPEG4, they would likely have a large class action suit, at the least, to deal with. There's nothing to say that they have to give you a new reciever to get the new channels they should offer.
 
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Jeff_R

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 8, 2003
224
0
Sacramento, CA
Lucky said:
This is why I have said repeatedly they should have kept the new channels MPEG2 for a transition period. They will be a good alternative to lots of us. I say Dish either upgrades all of our equipment, give us MPEG2 for new channels for a while, or we should look elsewhere. This just is not fair.

I agree that it isn't fair to customers with more than one HD box. However, if they even begin to make the new HD channels available to everyone with an MPEG2 box, they can never take them away without giving everyone a free box to recieve them with. What one giveth, they can't taketh away. What one never gives, they don't have to.

Dish put Discovery HD up in 8PSK, and required everyone that wanted that channel to purchase a 99 dollar module for their 6000 recievers in order to recieve it. The old 5000 HD receivers couldn't receive it at all. So a lot of us purchased that thing, and paid 5 dollars a month for Discovery HD, only to not have any other channels come online for quite some time. They had the space and could have given us Discovery in QPSK until more was offered, but instead tried to squeeze us a bit more.
 

Lucky

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 8, 2003
905
0
New York
Sean Mota said:
I still do not understand the marketing stragety of the 1 MPEG4 receiver per year per household. To me this is bogus. Why is Dish restricting us to from watching more HD channels on more than one TV. If there is a shortage of receivers, please tell us that but do not give us treat us like dirt and say "just buy". This is insane that Dish did not think about the possibilibities of exisiting subscribers with more than 1 HDTV. If it turns out that this group is small then please upgrade them with equal amount of receivers. First rule, keep your current/existing customers happy because for every happy one, they will bring two or more. I really do no understand their ilogical ways of doing this. This is not only the problem. The problem also is that we (existing) customers who are currently paying the bill and supporting dish have to wait until april 1st to get the $99 upgrade for a lease receiver.

Very well put, Sean. I never heard of a company upgrading part of a customers service. Either give us upgrades to all our HD boxes or keep the new channels at MPEG2, at least for a while. How can you wave new channels in front of customers and say you can only have them on one TV ? I have two HDTV's and it will be all or nothing. I still say DirecTV is an option. They will catch up to Dish in a hurry in HD channels. Do you really think Rupert Murdoch will just sit by and let Charlie be the HD leader forever. I say, no way. This policy stinks. :mad:
 

Lucky

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 8, 2003
905
0
New York
Jeff_R said:
As long as they keep your current programming available to you, they don't have to do a thing. If they convert all current HD channels to MPEG4, they would likely have a large class action suit, at the least, to deal with. There's nothing to say that they have to give you a new reciever to get the new channels they should offer.

In a legal sense that is true, but that is not how to treat your valued HD customers. In a competitive market you want to keep your best customers happy. Otherwise, they may leave for greener pastures. A year is a long time to wait for another upgrade, and many people may go to DirecTV or cable as their HD offerings improve over that year.
 

Jimmy J

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 12, 2004
372
0
Wallingford, VT.
Well, I made a call to D* to see what I could get. They offered me 2 non DVR HD rcvr's at $199 ea with a rebate of $199 for each on the first months bill. But, they couldn't give me anymore HD than I already have with E*, with the exception of ESPN2 HD & UHD?

So, I'm gonna play ERGEN's game for a little while longer. My plan is to wait til April, upgrade 1 of my 2 811's for a 211, and have them install a second dish for 61.5 as I can't get 129. I'll then wait for a year and see what happens along the way with regards to additional HD programming. If all is well by the end of that year, I'll upgrade the second 811 for another 211 or perhaps a 622.

Wuddaya think?
 

Drone35

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 3, 2005
564
0
Amarillo,TX
Jimmy J said:
Well, I made a call to D* to see what I could get. They offered me 2 non DVR HD rcvr's at $199 ea with a rebate of $199 for each on the first months bill. But, they couldn't give me anymore HD than I already have with E*, with the exception of ESPN2 HD & UHD?

So, I'm gonna play ERGEN's game for a little while longer. My plan is to wait til April, upgrade 1 of my 2 811's for a 211, and have them install a second dish for 61.5 as I can't get 129. I'll then wait for a year and see what happens along the way with regards to additional HD programming. If all is well by the end of that year, I'll upgrade the second 811 for another 211 or perhaps a 622.

Wuddaya think?
Well since u asked, I think u would walk over hot coals for good ol' Charlie if he asked and that goes for alot of others, just tell us what u want us to do and well do it and well pay what u want! Like I said, you asked!! :)
 

TheDishNetworkInstaller

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 11, 2004
179
0
Middle of No Where
This why I'm not worrying about a HDTV right now. I'll stay Mpeg2 and SD-TV till I'm forced (by the FCC Rule) to actually care about upgrading.

To much BS in the wind from ALL providers. If I did go HD it would be strictly OTA since a one time purchase would suffice for years to come.
 

waltinvt

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Feb 16, 2004
3,439
1
Vermont
rdinkel said:
What I find so frustrating is that it would not have been that hard to do things right for the customers--which in turn would build loyalty good for the company. If I were Charlie, I would be firing or at least calling senior management onto the carpet over the way this is being mismanaged! Successful corporations do not put up with this type of nonsense. Bob!sadroll

I agree 100%. It's always a matter of "what-coulda-beens" with Dish. They always act like they have blinders on or something.

A little more concern for their existing customer base would have made everything else a lot easier to swallow.

Even if they'd put the new channels up for MEPG2 receivers on a temporary basis until MEPG4 was really ready and explained that to everyone, it would have made such a difference.

This is such a constant theme with Dish. They need a group of customers on their advisory board.
 

bbtkd

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 11, 2004
309
1
Could this be their plan? Maybe it should be...

OK - if you were in their place and had millions of MPEG2 receivers out there, mostly SD - what would you do? Remember their goal - increase HD, implement MPEG4 - and eventually start eliminating SD channels where duplicated by HD.

So - the first logical step is to uplink new HD channels in MPEG4 to entice existing lucrative HD customers. For this first step, they need only swap out the HD receivers in each household. The next step would be to start eliminating MPEG2 HD channels, pushing the rest of the HD customers to take the MPEG4 deal - and at that point the deal will be sweetened.

While this is going on - over the next 6-9 months, all new receivers are MPEG4 and HD. Then when most of the HD customers have upgraded, Dish will need to move everyone else on to MPEG4/HD. At that point they will have the sweet deal for us to upgrade our current SD receivers.

I would expect that within 16-18 months that their goal is to eliminate all SD and MPEG2 receivers and to eliminate all SD channels that duplicate HD channels. Also - they can then easily swap up SD channels to HD since everyone will have HD receivers that can downconvert for SD TVs if necessary.

If this is not their plan, or if they don't have one - then they are foolish. Many don't like the first step because it appears that they are going to eat it on SD upgrades later, but I figure we just need to wait until summer. Lastly - do the math and you will see that this swap out will be expensive for Dish, but they are betting that the few customers that leave out of frustration will be overwhelmingly replaced by new customers wanting the new HD Dish network. Guess what - they will be what Voom wanted to be! Voom was just ahead of it's time and had poor planning...
 

Weezknight

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jan 10, 2006
628
0
Philly 'Burbs, PA
Jeff_R said:
As long as they keep your current programming available to you, they don't have to do a thing. If they convert all current HD channels to MPEG4, they would likely have a large class action suit, at the least, to deal with. There's nothing to say that they have to give you a new reciever to get the new channels they should offer.

Well I was writing as an existing HD customer who isn't planning on upgrading right away. I guess they are in a position where they can cancel my programming at will (not a great move customer service wise), but I was hoping if they shut off my MPEG-2 HD channels, and I'm still in my contracted period they would have to upgrade me to MPEG-4 for free so I can still see the channels I pay for.
 

Reefer123

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 8, 2005
168
0
20 Miles from OTA Towers :)
Heck I am no E* supporter, me personally I already bailed and sold my 811 for a nice peice of change. But I think everyone here needs to understand that we are a tiny minority here. There may be a few hundred users here complaining and you know what, in the scheme of things you matter 0 to dish, just look what happened when we bitched and screamed about Voom.

Now everyone is complaining about the upgrades. What I don't undestand is you, like I, have a choice. you CAN NOT bitch about their practices and then say "yeah but they still have the most HD content" if thats the case play by their rules.

And not to be an a-hole but wht does everyone have their panties all up in a bunch about the receivers?? Most likely they have a giant shortage because although everyone is complaining about the upgrade price, hd-lite and price increses, yet you guys are all waiting in line slobbering for a new MPEG4, that will give you a few new HD channels of which 2 have any content worth the money (sorry Gameplay fans) . Now if the first few guys in line purchased a few upgrades and you were left out their would be MORE bitching.

You can get one 622 or 2 211s it seems so stop whining.
 

Reefer123

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 8, 2005
168
0
20 Miles from OTA Towers :)
BTW i can only sympathize on certain areas with people that are within a commitment to E*, as I was not. I had been a customer since 99 so I could cancel anytime. If things ever get better I still have a SuperDish. a 61.5 w/ a DPP44 all wired up so I can always come back if I decide to.
 
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Jimmy J

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 12, 2004
372
0
Wallingford, VT.
Drone35 said:
Well since u asked, I think u would walk over hot coals for good ol' Charlie if he asked and that goes for alot of others, just tell us what u want us to do and well do it and well pay what u want! Like I said, you asked!! :)

Oh contraire mon fraire, I wouldn't let Charlie carry my piss bucket. Sure I may have to fork out a $49 fee for a swap out, but I sure as HELL ain't gonna PURCHASE a second unit!!!
 

waltinvt

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Feb 16, 2004
3,439
1
Vermont
bbtkd said:
OK - if you were in their place and had millions of MPEG2 receivers out there, mostly SD - what would you do? Remember their goal - increase HD, implement MPEG4 - and eventually start eliminating SD channels where duplicated by HD.

First, whatever you do, you avoid making it look like you're trying to get your loyal customer base to pay for the big move. Instead you make them feel like they're getting a reward for their loyalty but at the same time are also needed to help carry this jump into reality.

bbtkd said:
So - the first logical step is to uplink new HD channels in MPEG4 to entice existing lucrative HD customers.

Yes on the uplink - no on the "entice" - that's as transparent as it appears and combined with the word "lucrative" comes across as "we'll squeeze as much as we can out of them first to pay for this thing".

Instead you uplink all the new channels in MPEG2 (which is what they've done), so all existing HD customers can get them but be clear that this is temporary and part of the overall move to MPEG4 and better PQ for all HD.
This does 2 things:
1. It at least comes closer to fulfilling the earlier promise of "all 21 Voom channels by the end of '05" "plus maybe one or two more channels". This helps discredit Dish's past history of broken promises instead of substaniating it.
2. It makes existing customers feel included instead of exploited. Your getting part of something now but your also expected to do something in exchange for this and more to come.

What it doesn't do is try to decieve customers like the disguising MPEG2 as MPEG4 move so obviously tried to do. Dish has always underestimated the ability of their customers being able to figure out what's really going on.

bbtkd said:
For this first step, they need only swap out the HD receivers in each household. The next step would be to start eliminating MPEG2 HD channels, pushing the rest of the HD customers to take the MPEG4 deal - and at that point the deal will be sweetened.

Both steps are logical but they need to be implemented in a way that builds true customer support over the whole spectrum, not buys it from some at the expense of others which is exactly what your senerio does. That only serves to make some customers feel like they're getting exploited and decieved. It also tells the customers with the "sweetened" deal, as you so eliquintly put it, that they could be next on the "get screwed" list and the ones that jumped first this time that they'd have been better off waiting.

No, being honest up front works better. Tell all customers from the get-go what the plan is. Tell them that although the move to MPEG4 is NOT ready yet, they will have to move fast as soon as it is and in the mean time our goal is to get everyone ready that wants to move forward towards better HD.

This way existing customers understand the plan: that they're being given something now (the new channels in MPEG2) but in exchange for that they're expected to upgrade their receivers within a reasonable period of time or they not only loose the new channels but untimitly all HD as it moves to MPEG4.

There is the added perk that the sooner this takes place the sooner all HD channels get back to their appropiate resolution and PQ.

bkbbd said:
While this is going on - over the next 6-9 months, all new receivers are MPEG4 and HD. Then when most of the HD customers have upgraded, Dish will need to move everyone else on to MPEG4/HD. At that point they will have the sweet deal for us to upgrade our current SD receivers.

I would expect that within 16-18 months that their goal is to eliminate all SD and MPEG2 receivers and to eliminate all SD channels that duplicate HD channels. Also - they can then easily swap up SD channels to HD since everyone will have HD receivers that can downconvert for SD TVs if necessary.

The conversion of all SD receivers to MPEG4 will fall into place by itself because within the realistic time frame necessary for the above and that replacement receivers will only be with MPEG4 equivilents anyway, by the time the above is complete, most subs will have been upgraded anyway.

It also has the side benefit of making it easy for any SD sub to move into HD any time.

bkbbd said:
If this is not their plan, or if they don't have one - then they are foolish.
Now what are the odds of that being the case?:D

bkbbd said:
Many don't like the first step because it appears that they are going to eat it on SD upgrades later, but I figure we just need to wait until summer. Lastly - do the math and you will see that this swap out will be expensive for Dish, but they are betting that the few customers that leave out of frustration will be overwhelmingly replaced by new customers wanting the new HD Dish network. Guess what - they will be what Voom wanted to be! Voom was just ahead of it's time and had poor planning...
I can't address everyone of your misconceptions but as for the swap out, that expense exists no matter what happens. Attempting to place the brunt of it disproportionately on existing subs in the first phase and before you've even got MPEG4 ready gives the appearance of just what it is.

In my opinion, this combined with no attempt to repair broken promises of the past only serves to alienate existing (high paying) customers plus make Dish look worse to potential new customers, who (and everyone seems to forget this) WILL be existing customers too someday.
 

MR CORVETTE

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Mar 22, 2004
28
0
Well as a former Voom Customer who switched to Dish in May 05 for a 942 and a 811 and paid $350 FOR THE LEASE AND 61.5 DISH. I down graded to AT 60 and HD and Voom and took the 811 offline which I have to send back. I wanted local taken out also but they would not let me. My local cable just added 11 HD. For my locals and Pitts Pa locals and HD package for $30 which includes Starz HD TNT-Hd plus ESPN2-HD coming and CBS-HD coming Shortly, plus our local FOX, NBC, PBS in HD,PLUS Outdoor-HD , plus ESPNhd and OTHERS and I get all Starz and Encore SD channels. i AM SICK OF THE VOOM RERUNS. I am in no hurry to upgrade. I am not happy with all that is going down at DISH especially with the HD downrez. I can see a deferents. The Cable Company is Atlantic Broadband broadcasting at full Rez 1980x1280 and they use a Sa3250hd and 8300hd dvr.
 

CPanther95

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Mar 25, 2004
1,073
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Charlotte, NC
waltinvt said:
First, whatever you do, you avoid making it look like you're trying to get your loyal customer base to pay for the big move. Instead you make them feel like they're getting a reward for their loyalty but at the same time are also needed to help carry this jump into reality.

Unless they are willing to carry that burden. If the demand for the upgrade is there, with the current fees and restrictions, then they accomplish their goal - and the only subs required to help subsidize the transition are one who willingly did so on a voluntary basis. When the number of upgrades under the current program plateaus - they'll come up with a different more sub-friendly plan to handle the balance of STBs that need upgrading.

D* did the same thing (on a smaller scale) when they added SHO-HD. If you wanted to add that channel, you paid $50 for the 3rd LNB and agreed to sub to Showtime for 6 months. A few months later the 6 month SHO subscription requirement was dropped - then later the third LNB was supplied for free. E* is requiring a much more substantial fee (particularly for multi-HDSTB subs), but the carrot they are dangling is also much more substantial.

The only variable is how long can you wait. The longer you wait, the more likely that the deal you are offered will reflect E*'s desire for you to upgrade rather than a deal that accomodates your desire to upgrade.
 

CPanther95

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Mar 25, 2004
1,073
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Charlotte, NC
Another thing for you guys to keep in mind is that unlike most promotions - no matter how small a percentage you represent - you wield a lot more power here than you probably realize. Normally, programs are geared heavily in favor of new subscribers, for obvious reasons. However, the liability for E* here rests entirely with the installed base of MPEG2 HD receivers. New customers can be handled as they come on board, but that base of installed MPEG2 HD receivers does not get watered down as more new subscribers sign up. It is a fixed liability sitting out there that at some point must be upgraded.

If E* has a practice of offering separate deals for those that are under contract and those that are completely free to leave - I'd be very cautious about jumping on the current upgrade deal if you have multiple receivers (or plan a need for an additional HD receiver within 12 months) and if a commitment is involved. The base of receivers that need upgrading is a liability until you voluntarily upgrade or leave E*. That cancellation fee may be enough for E* to classify you as a sub that they are willing to let go rather than supplement further upgrades.
 

jerryez

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Sep 8, 2003
4,434
893
Pensacola,FL
A lot of people threaten to switch to Directv over the mpeg4, but D* does not even have the new channels that E* is offering. So, what are they switching to get.
 

CPanther95

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Mar 25, 2004
1,073
0
Charlotte, NC
It makes sense to wait, but not to switch. Switching for free D* MPEG4 upgrades does no good if you can't get anything with it. If anything, at least wait until (if) D* has a better lineup. Although by that time, the cost to upgrade to E*/ MPEG4 is sure to be much more attractive anyway.
 
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