increasingly frequent "signal loss" w/o apparent cause (1 Viewer)

jtiner

Thread Starter
Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Sep 26, 2010
30
0
Maine
I'm looking for help with a really odd signal problem. I've got a one and a half year old Eastern arc 1.4 installation with a single 722k receiver and have been experiencing increasingly frequent "signal loss" messages. The message will intermittently occur when powering up or changing channels. Moving up one channel and then back down resolves the problem. Likewise, if flipping to a channel results in a "signal loss" message, flipping up/down a channel resolves the problem.
When I've encountered the error message, I've performed some quick signal checks and found the same signal levels I've had all along (between 50-60 on 72/61.5) with all three sats and even/odd transponders showing up as O.K. I've run "check switch" perhaps ten times with no errors. I've also performed several cold power starts on the 722K, and I've checked and tightened the connections at the LNB, grounding block, diplexer, and receiver.The problem is occuring with increasing frequency, and I'm starting to lose recordings (they're marked as being lost due to no signal).
The system has been trouble free until just a few months back; there's no weather/wind/temperature/obstruction correlation to the apparent signal loss, and as I said, it's always resolved with a channel flip.
I'd welcome suggestions on where to look in the diagnostics/history for more helpful information (LNB drift, etc.).
The setup is two straight 60' runs of high quality 3 Ghz. RG-6 from two ports on the LNB directly to the house to a dual grounding block, then one 20' length of the same type of RG-6 to the diplexer at the receiver. It's a 722k on a small UPS with no OTA module. The problem seems to occur most frequently when moving between Food TV, HGTV, and TBS on 72 (that's our most consistent viewing/recording pattern......).
 

ERSanders

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 3, 2004
392
46
Fairport, NY
I have a similar setup but with two 722k's on the 1.4, but no known lost recordings. On one of the 722k's I get your type problem, not the other one. It seemed to have started after the last s/w update and since it only effects one of the two, I'm thinking a serial number sensitivity within the 722k fleet. I'll stay tuned to see what response you get (D.I.R.T. are you there?).
 

hdflsts2002

SatelliteGuys Guru
Jul 1, 2008
135
5
If you go to the system info screen and then details do you see LNB Drift detected in there anywhere? If so is the value greater than 5? LNB Drift is an indicator of the LNB failing. Your receiver can compensate for some drift but beyond a given point it can not. If you're old enough think back to the days when you would listen to your favorite MLB team on your transistor radio. You'd have the station tuned in perfect then all of a sudden it would start to fade and you would need to rotate the tuning dial one way or another until you got it spot on again. That's sort of what your receiver does when you start getting LNB drift if however the drift becomes bad enough it can no longer tune the station (Transponder/channel) before it's tuning into the adjacent one.
 

ERSanders

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 3, 2004
392
46
Fairport, NY
I did as you suggested re. "drift" and found a warning on the setup screen that "LNB Drift Detected". On the troublesome set I got values as follows Item 3 = 1 and item 7 = -2. On the troublefree set I got all zeros except item 7 = -2. I think we have a winner! Thanks.

Addendum: No OTA on problem set but yes on OK set.

Addendum #2: Are the values shown above sufficient to cause the flaky performance?
 

hdflsts2002

SatelliteGuys Guru
Jul 1, 2008
135
5
Values are below what Dish will want to do a replacement for and really should not be at a point to cause the issues you describe, but then I really can't say how accurate the receivers are at identifying the level of drift. I would talk to one of the DIRT members here and explain the issues you are seeing and also mention that you do have some drift. If you have Home Protection I would think that they should be able to get you a service call scheduled if not you may want to consider adding it. It's $6 per month and will limit your charge for the service call to $15. Not sure what the current min length of time you must then keep it on your account is. 5 months for some reason is sticking in my mind but even at that your total out of pocket will be $45 ($15 home protection service call + $6 per month x 5 months) as opposed to $95 which I think is the current non covered service call charge.
 

jtiner

Thread Starter
Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Sep 26, 2010
30
0
Maine
I'll check for LNB drift; and for the poster that asked about OTA, I don't have a module installed. I get my off-air channels off-air (directly to my TV tuner).
 

3HaloODST

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Jul 2, 2010
6,648
97
Earth
I did as you suggested re. "drift" and found a warning on the setup screen that "LNB Drift Detected". On the troublesome set I got values as follows Item 3 = 1 and item 7 = -2. On the troublefree set I got all zeros except item 7 = -2. I think we have a winner! Thanks.

Addendum: No OTA on problem set but yes on OK set.

Addendum #2: Are the values shown above sufficient to cause the flaky performance?

A value of 3 for 1 and -2 for 7 seem to be normal values, however I'm not sure as I don't think even Dish uses these values anymore. LNB drift detected means you should get Dish to replace your LNB. Contact a DIRT member here.

Also, just out of curiosity, on your receiver, hit MENU - 6 - 3 - SEND STATUS - CONNECTION - CHECK SIGNAL. Let it do its thing. Then when it's done, cycle through the sats. What are the values for the 4 transponders on each satellite? Are they similar on both tuners? When you're done just hit CANCEL.
 

bnewt

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 6, 2003
1,208
239
Shepherdsville, Ky
I also have this problem, but again it happens only on 1 of my 2 722's. I do have the lnb drift message. I just don't understand why it only shows on the most used 722 & not the other
 

hdflsts2002

SatelliteGuys Guru
Jul 1, 2008
135
5
I also have this problem, but again it happens only on 1 of my 2 722's. I do have the lnb drift message. I just don't understand why it only shows on the most used 722 & not the other

Your issue could be due to something other than drift, but if receiving the drift message that is where I would first begin. As to why you would see issues on one STB and not the other these receivers are designed to receive and decode the signals primarily. There are some diagnostic functions in them to aid in diagnosing issues. Some may provide more accurate readings than others some better able to correct for drift. Think of it this way. You can sight a Dish using a $20 meter and get decent at using it, or you could get a several hundred dollar meter and get every last bit out of your alignment. Which tech do you think would be incorporated into a consumer STB?
 

jtiner

Thread Starter
Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Sep 26, 2010
30
0
Maine
Well, I checked again last nght, and definitely have the most trouble when switching to TBS or HGTV; all other channels seem fine. The LNB drift indicator gave some hex values that didn't mean anything to me except for the negative exponent value (like bit error rate). The reading was 0X1C, 0XA2, and 72(e-13). Thoughts?
 

boba

SatelliteGuys Master
Dec 12, 2003
11,351
1,032
Dorchester, TX.
Well, I checked again last nght, and definitely have the most trouble when switching to TBS or HGTV; all other channels seem fine. The LNB drift indicator gave some hex values that didn't mean anything to me except for the negative exponent value (like bit error rate). The reading was 0X1C, 0XA2, and 72(e-13). Thoughts?
Thoughts? It's time to call DISH tech support or PM a DIRT member.
 

hdflsts2002

SatelliteGuys Guru
Jul 1, 2008
135
5
Well, I checked again last nght, and definitely have the most trouble when switching to TBS or HGTV; all other channels seem fine. The LNB drift indicator gave some hex values that didn't mean anything to me except for the negative exponent value (like bit error rate). The reading was 0X1C, 0XA2, and 72(e-13). Thoughts?

The part between () is what you need to be looking at. The e indicates the value from an even transponder and if there were an o it would be an odd transponder. A drift of -13 way beyond spec!!!! As the other poster said call dish or contact a DIRT member here. That situation is not going to improve, it's only going to get worse. I have seen docs where techs are to replace an LNB with a drift value of greater than -/+5 I have also seen one where it says less than 6 no action necessary, 6-8 replace if there is an issue reported and 9 or above is a required replacement unless the value is above 12 and no problems are being exhibited. You are at 13 and you are seeing problems. I'm actually surprised you're not seeing more issues. Even at values lower than 5 you can see issues and if you have Home protection report the issue and have a tech out. I know previously I had similar issues on a 722K my drift was showing as -3 yet when I put my birdog on the line the value was much higher than that. Tech showed up his supperbuddy showed the same thing. LNB replaced and no issues since.
 

jtiner

Thread Starter
Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Sep 26, 2010
30
0
Maine
The part between () is what you need to be looking at. The e indicates the value from an even transponder and if there were an o it would be an odd transponder. A drift of -13 way beyond spec!!!! As the other poster said call dish or contact a DIRT member here. That situation is not going to improve, it's only going to get worse. I have seen docs where techs are to replace an LNB with a drift value of greater than -/+5 I have also seen one where it says less than 6 no action necessary, 6-8 replace if there is an issue reported and 9 or above is a required replacement unless the value is above 12 and no problems are being exhibited. You are at 13 and you are seeing problems. I'm actually surprised you're not seeing more issues. Even at values lower than 5 you can see issues and if you have Home protection report the issue and have a tech out. I know previously I had similar issues on a 722K my drift was showing as -3 yet when I put my birdog on the line the value was much higher than that. Tech showed up his supperbuddy showed the same thing. LNB replaced and no issues since.

Oh..... I thought the -13 was a negative exponent value; that's how bit error rate was always designated for T1/T3 circuits and such. So it looks like it is time for a new LNB. Thanks for the input everyone.
 

Neutron

Founding Supporter
Supporting Founder
Nov 7, 2003
18,730
1,122
Texas
We have this problem with our 722k with a WA setup. The only way to fix this is to do a reset of the receiver. It happens several times a week. We've had the service since November and it started the first week after our install. The tech said he didn't know what the issue was. I have yet to have DISH fix this.
 

3HaloODST

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Jul 2, 2010
6,648
97
Earth
We have this problem with our 722k with a WA setup. The only way to fix this is to do a reset of the receiver. It happens several times a week. We've had the service since November and it started the first week after our install. The tech said he didn't know what the issue was. I have yet to have DISH fix this.

If your 722K is indicating that it is detecting LNB drift then you will need to have the LNB replaced. I have however read of issues with DPP44 power inserters that cause a similar issue.
 

hdflsts2002

SatelliteGuys Guru
Jul 1, 2008
135
5
Oh..... I thought the -13 was a negative exponent value; that's how bit error rate was always designated for T1/T3 circuits and such. So it looks like it is time for a new LNB. Thanks for the input everyone.

Not exactly sure why the - designation on even and + on odd but you definitely don't want to use your T-berd to troubleshoot. :D What I can tell you is that even transponders use lefthand circular polarity at 18 volts and Odd is left hand circular at 13 volts. Still learning all the ins and outs of Sat, but dang it's nice to meet another pcm/tdm person. Pretty much these days, the only thing Quasi Random around here are my thoughts. :D
 

boba

SatelliteGuys Master
Dec 12, 2003
11,351
1,032
Dorchester, TX.
Not exactly sure why the - designation on even and + on odd but you definitely don't want to use your T-berd to troubleshoot. :D What I can tell you is that even transponders use lefthand circular polarity at 18 volts and Odd is left hand circular at 13 volts. Still learning all the ins and outs of Sat, but dang it's nice to meet another pcm/tdm person. Pretty much these days, the only thing Quasi Random around here are my thoughts. :D
Are you still installing LEGACY LNBs voltage switching isn't used on Dish Pro they are "18 volt".
 

pabeader

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 18, 2004
1,709
0
OTP Georgia
We have this problem with our 722k with a WA setup. The only way to fix this is to do a reset of the receiver. It happens several times a week. We've had the service since November and it started the first week after our install. The tech said he didn't know what the issue was. I have yet to have DISH fix this.

if you are still having this problem.
Press the SWAP button the the Dish remote.
Tune to a Satellite channel.
Press the SWAP button again.

Problem corrected for now.
 

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