Lexicon Announces Blu-ray Player

[teachsac]

I knew this was coming. Lexicon has officially anounced their entry into the BD market, BD-30. It is going to be an awesome product and will cut into the top of the line Denon. It is a BD-Live player, full internal decoding, first THX certified player, and plays all audio formats. This will be the player for high-end systems. Price will be $3499. Anyone game? Might match up well with my MC12HD (which will be getting its firmware upgrade).

Print: Lexicon to Launch THX-Certified Blu-ray Player - CE Pro

S~

Oh yeah, Parasound is in the works, also. MSRP will probably be around 2,000.

S~

 

[Smith P.]

Most of members here will skip this box.

 

[Ilya]

Price will be $3499.

That's actually much cheaper than Marantz UD9004 ($5,999.99 MSRP)

 

[navychop]

Perhaps it will only be sold to single guys and rich guys!

 

[jayn_j]

No, there is always a market for a better product. It is going to go into better systems, if just for the better transport.

My question with this, as always is why all the attention to the internal decoders? The target market here is someone who already has a high end HT pre-amp. That pre-amp is already THX certified and has all the advanced codecs, plus will be downloadable for new ones. It seems to me that what is needed is a stabilized motor controller, some inertial mass for the spinning disc and error detection/correction in the datastream.

Internal decoding is for folks trying to make do with obsolete equipment. If there is a digital component to the signal path it is better IMHO to let it remain digital as long as possible and eliminate the noise that is inserted in any analog path. Put the money in the pre-amp decoders instead.

 

[teachsac]

No, there is always a market for a better product. It is going to go into better systems, if just for the better transport.

My question with this, as always is why all the attention to the internal decoders? The target market here is someone who already has a high end HT pre-amp. That pre-amp is already THX certified and has all the advanced codecs, plus will be downloadable for new ones. It seems to me that what is needed is a stabilized motor controller, some inertial mass for the spinning disc and error detection/correction in the datastream.

Internal decoding is for folks trying to make do with obsolete equipment. If there is a digital component to the signal path it is better IMHO to let it remain digital as long as possible and eliminate the noise that is inserted in any analog path. Put the money in the pre-amp decoders instead.

MC12HD does not have decoders for Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master. It only accepts LPCM 7.1 (after firmware update) over HDMI 1.1. The legacy MC12 does not even have HDMI inputs. The only other processor that has HDMI inputs is the MV-5, but it does not accept 1080p. Their new processor won't be out until sometime next year. There is a serious gap in the high end for processors that have advanced decoding. Many of us do not want to upgrade our processors either. I'd put the MC12HD up against most any processor. Blows my Integra away. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to the new Parasound next month.

S~

 

[jayn_j]

Just seems backwards to me. Youwill end up buying the decoder several times for each source. Granted, I tend to keep obsolete stuff (still have laserdisc hooked up), but I would rather invest in keeping a good processor up to date.

OTOH, I sympathize. Friends have often complained that they have been burned by broken promises of higher end decoders being future proofed.

 

[teachsac]

Just seems backwards to me. Youwill end up buying the decoder several times for each source. Granted, I tend to keep obsolete stuff (still have laserdisc hooked up), but I would rather invest in keeping a good processor up to date.

OTOH, I sympathize. Friends have often complained that they have been burned by broken promises of higher end decoders being future proofed.

From the highend perspective, things change too fast. It does make sense for the players to decode. High end companies would rather have video done in a switching stage, with audio handled by the device. Processors last longer that way. Who wants to spend 5-12K dollars every time something new comes along every year or so. Box store receivers are geared for replacement every two years. That's how they make their money. Remember, DVD players used to have built in decoders.

S~

 

[diogen]

From the highend perspective, things change too fast. It does make sense for the players to decode.

I believe this is how the HD/BD era started: the standards were developed with player-side decoding in mind.
Receiver's inability to decode DTS-MA for a while was rumored to be due to DTS (the company) not having a licensing program for receiver manufacturers.

Diogen.

 

[jayn_j]

From the highend perspective, things change too fast. It does make sense for the players to decode. High end companies would rather have video done in a switching stage, with audio handled by the device. Processors last longer that way. Who wants to spend 5-12K dollars every time something new comes along every year or so. Box store receivers are geared for replacement every two years. That's how they make their money. Remember, DVD players used to have built in decoders.

Well, I understand the logic. I just don't agree with it, especially when you potentially end up replacing a couple of $3k source components to avoid replacing/updating a $5k processor.

The $3k upper end players are at least two years behind on the technology curve anyway, so the user ends up either waiting on the better decoder or purchasing an interim mass market product and trading off mechanical performance against improved codec performance.

Yes, the upper end processors don't sell in the volume to justify turning them over quickly, but the current strategy almost quarantees a questionable signal path somewhere in your system.

 

[teachsac]

Yes, the player will send analog, but the MC12HD does have HDMI, as do several other high end procesors, which keeps it in the digital domain. Technically it should not matter where the decoding takes place, receiver/processor or player. HDMI audio is not quite flawless either.

S~

 

[tomcrown1]

The Lexicon is a shame it is just an OPPO BD83

Ps check out the http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/

notice the price.

 

[teachsac]

Don't think for a minute this is an Oppo. Lexicon has done its own R&D. A rebadge is when Sharp makes Pioneer's 120 for them. Just because specs are similar and there are some similarities in appearance doesn't make it the same product. Oppo does not make their own boards, chasis, chipsets, etc. Neither does Parasound, Denon, etc. They all buy from other manufacturers. You look close enough you'll see similarities between many products. It's all about the parts you buy and how well you put them together and do the programming. Lexicon's patches for their products were for enhancements, not to fix bugs. I look forward to Parasound's entry into the BD world, also. They take great pridde in their products and development.

S~

 

[harshness]

No, there is always a market for a better product.

For these types, more money is always better and if it turns out that it isn't the best, there's always next model down the road.

It isn't entirely reasonable to expect that a $3,500 player is somehow even 10% "better" than a $350 player. The high zoot players often lack some of the handy features of the el-cheapo players like flash slots, JPEG and DivX support. Never mind trying to find a remote code set...

This same argument went on for years when the sales associates had to explain why the Nakamichi high bias cassettes looked so much like the run-of-the-mill TDK SA-C90 but cost 400% more.

 

[teachsac]

I'm sure it will be fully loaded. The only thing it probably won't do is Netflix. My Denon plays all files; JPEG, DIVX (HD), etc. Plus it is spectacular with 2 channel audio. Something the Oppo hasn't been that great at.

S~

 

[Smith P.]

" It seems to me that what is needed is a stabilized motor controller, some inertial mass for the spinning disc and error detection/correction in the datastream."
I'm doubt the ideas will help change anything - the disk is spinning at higher speed [xN] then need for provide video stream at original speed, so decoding going stricly from buffer.

 

[jayn_j]

" It seems to me that what is needed is a stabilized motor controller, some inertial mass for the spinning disc and error detection/correction in the datastream."
I'm doubt the ideas will help change anything - the disk is spinning at higher speed [xN] then need for provide video stream at original speed, so decoding going stricly from buffer.

I agree, but I am frankly trying to find reasons to justify more than $200 for a BluRay player. What I keep seeing are things that actually degrade the signal path. At the same time, I'm trying to avoid triggering a jihad over high priced equipment.

I tend to spend $1k- 1.5k on an integrated receiver. I personally find that is the knee on MY personal cost/benefit curve. I certainly can see and hear the improvement with more expensive stuff though. Even more so with speakers.

The only thing I can really find with BD players is a sturdier build quality. I simply cannot find the performance improvement here, and I see an awful lot of subjective opinions about how stuff looks "crisper" or "astounding black levels". This is all stuff that shouldn't matter. As I said before, a good system should leave the signal in the digital domain as long as possible. A digital system doesn't degrade and isn't subject to noise polluting the signal path. Further, signal processing is better done in the digital domain (that will likely be controversial, but I stand by it) so if any tailoring such as volume adjustment, phase delays and frequency leveling are better done before the conversion.

An interesting side effect is that the high end enthusiasts will admit that the lower end players are quicker to react to real improvements, such as better decoders and media streaming. That is an argument for disposable players until features stabilize for awhile.

I think there is more than a little of the "Monster cable" effect. You spend $30k on an amplifier and you will be less willing to admit that a $200 BluRay player or a $10 HDMI cable can do its job and an overpriced solution will sound and look better.

Look, I have nothing against upper end equipment. However, in this case I can't see the performance justification and I think it would mostly provide a unit with heft and solidly built components, but no real performance improvements.

Sorry. I know I have probably ignited a flame war, but this is how I see this situation. I am definitely willing to be convinced I am wrong, but it is going to take more than the typical 'green marker' arguments to bring this engineer around.

 

[diogen]

As I said before, a good system should leave the signal in the digital domain as long as possible.
A digital system doesn't degrade and isn't subject to noise polluting the signal path.

I'm neitehr an audio- videophile nor did I ever own a piece of electronic equipment worth more than 1.5K (projectors aside). But here I'd disagree.

I've seen people pick an MP3 audio stream (160kbps) mixed with two WAVs of the same soundtrack 6 times out of 6. I wouldn't believe it first, but it was true.

Some people do have better ears and abilities to hear what average people don't.
The same with video.

Diogen.

 

[jayn_j]

I'm neitehr an audio- videophile nor did I ever own a piece of electronic equipment worth more than 1.5K (projectors aside). But here I'd disagree.

I've seen people pick an MP3 audio stream (160kbps) mixed with two WAVs of the same soundtrack 6 times out of 6. I wouldn't believe it first, but it was true.

Some people do have better ears and abilities to hear what average people don't.
The same with video.

Diogen.

That isn't what I said. I too can hear and appreciate the difference in a pure analog signal path. I can certainly hear the difference with a high sample rate. The point here though is that the signal is coming off the disc in the digital domain, and at a high sampling rate. It needs to be converted somewhere along the signal path. The question is when should the signal conditioning be applied, in the digital or the analog domain.

 

[mike123abc]

I would much rather have the $5k in an outboard audio decoder than in the player. The outboard then could be used for other things like a PC or other video sources.

BD is a hard sell for video improvements. There should not be any video processing in the unit. The MPEG is a set standard and every player should decode the MPEG bits exactly the same, it is probably a $5 chip that does every bit of the standard. The point of the HDMI is that it stays digital all the way to the viewing device.