Little surprised, but the Dish HD lils seem to look better than OTA

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gadgtfreek

gadgtfreek

SatelliteGuys Master
Original poster
May 29, 2006
22,105
865
Lower Alabama
Normally I record OTA as much as possible, but I've noticed my Fox Fringe sat recordings looked great in HD and I decided to swap a few more over.

I figured if I like the look, it'll save me space on the EHD (mpeg sat 1080i hour on CBS is 4gb's, as opposed to 7.9 for the OTA).

What Im seeing on CBS and Fox is just as good color, and what appears to be a sharper image, especially the edges. It has a tad more of the 3d look, and I wonder if Dish uses some kind of edge enhancement.

Maybe some of the OTA in my market just has too many subchannels (most have none or 1-2; CBS channel Im comparing has no subchannels).
 
What DMA are you getting. I can tell you that while some do justly complain about the inferior quality of their HD LIL's compared to OTA, here in Los Angeles, I have the same experience as you: Dish HD LIL actually a tad better than OTA. The OTA will break-up in fast action with some pixelation, but NOT on Dish LIL. However, the OTA does have a bit more detail, than Dish LIL, but that is expected. Overall, I have to say that, despite the bit more detail on OTA, Dish HD LIL in L.A. is a better PQ. There is virtually no difference in any other observable way. I've had them both on PIP, and I am truly impressed with Dish's L.A. HD LIL's. They look GREAT!

To answer your question, Dish can and does process the video for some enhancement, but not so much that it looks that different from your OTA. They are limited in how much they can process LIL by law. The "cable" channels are another matter.

I believe the HD LIL issue has to do with the size or population of a DMA. The larger the population, the better the Dish HD LIL PQ because Dish doesn't want their call centers to be overwhelmed--as in shutting down the system--with complaints. I'm telling you, when there is a hiccup with an L.A. LIL, you can't get through to Dish because untold numbers are already overwhelming the lines. The Los Angeles area has among the highest penetration of satellite, and I think that is why the HD LIL in L.A. is so good. Meanwhile, our good friends in smaller metro areas seem to get inferior HD LIL PQ. That's not right, but it is all about the numbers. Charlie has never played hardball with any of the local L.A. stations. He had to pay a ton of $$ for the local Fox and was forced to take Fox Sports West 2 in order to keep Fox L.A. for the LIL some years ago. He even mentioned the ton of $$$ he had to pay a Fox station in L.A. on a Charlie Chat just after he finished negotiations.

It's all about big populations, which means, many more Dish subscribers.
 
Aren't most of the Dish LIL converted to 720p to use slightly less bandwidth? If so, is your set 720p or 1080i? A match is likely to give a better picture. Of course, ABC and Fox are already 720p, generally.
-Ken
 
My set is 1080p, but I dont buy the downconversion.

Shows on Fox and ABC are 2.5gb's while CBS is 4gb's. Makes me think those are 1440x1080i.

To give a bitrate comparison, Sons of Anarchy on FX, which looks pretty darn good, usually comes in between 1.7 and 1.9 gb's.
 
I am in the LA area and can say that the picture quality of Dish major network channels are a push when compared to my OTA channels.

A major plus of Dish vs OTA is that Dish uses MP4 compression so your DVR recordings use much less space that OTA recordings.
 
KKlare said:
Aren't most of the Dish LIL converted to 720p to use slightly less bandwidth? If so, is your set 720p or 1080i? A match is likely to give a better picture. Of course, ABC and Fox are already 720p, generally.
-Ken
Click to expand...

Dish has stated several times that they send to the customers what Dish is sent: If a channel is at 1080, Dish sends it out 1080; if a channel is at 720, Dish sends it out at 720. This has been verified. Now, bit rate is another matter, however Dish is using bandwidth efficiently by using MPEG4, 8PSK, and Turbo Coding, and the result, in many cases, is very good HD quality.
 
DishSubLA said:
Dish has stated several times that they send to the customers what Dish is sent: If a channel is at 1080, Dish sends it out 1080; if a channel is at 720, Dish sends it out at 720. This has been verified. Now, bit rate is another matter, however Dish is using bandwidth efficiently by using MPEG4, 8PSK, and Turbo Coding, and the result, in many cases, is very good HD quality.
Click to expand...

So they aren't downrezzing 1080i (1920x1080) down to 1280x1080 anymore?
 
KenSoren said:
I am in the LA area and can say that the picture quality of Dish major network channels are a push when compared to my OTA channels.

A major plus of Dish vs OTA is that Dish uses MP4 compression so your DVR recordings use much less space that OTA recordings.
Click to expand...

Yes, in fact, L.A. OTA can have some visible and distracting artifacts as a price for the slightly more detail that requires some adjustment to remove the detail on the TV if one is to watch the OTA directly to the TV.

One may not be able to see quite the disgusting detail of the mole on the actor's face with Dish L.A. HD LIL, but there is some noise there on the OTA that comes along with the slightly greater detail, too. Dish L.A. LIL HD is really, overall, better than the OTA. It is more consistent and seems to have better color accuracy than the direct to TV OTA, as well, and handles the fast motion better, too. I feel absolutely no sense that Dish doing and HD Lite on L.A. HD LIL's and feel I am getting my money's worth. I just wish it were this good for all the DMA's.
 
DJ Rob said:
So they aren't downrezzing 1080i (1920x1080) down to 1280x1080 anymore?
Click to expand...

Uh, the "trick" is that the vertical resolution is still 1080 or 720 wide. So, yeah, Charlie is correct when he states only the vertical resolution that Dish is passing on to the viewer. However Dish NEVER mentions the horizontal resolution. They know what they are saying and ommiting, even Charlie knows this. Disingenuous? Yes. Dowresed to 720? No.

Also, let us not forget the importance of bit rate and other technical factors in all this because even 1280X1080 handled properly is still stunning HD, especially if one has been following this thread about OTA L.A. locals at full resolution vs. Dish L.A. HD LIL at the presumed lower resolution. Result: Dish L.A. HD LIL's are virtually identical, even some saying a tad better with no sense of obvious inferior PQ or major loss of detail. Dish L.A. HD LIL's can still be described as "Excelent," at the very top of the grade. No sense of "HD Lite" with these channels. 1920x1080 with other technical factors not at optimum can produce an obviously inferior PQ to 1280x1080 handled properly.
 
Last edited:
KKlare said:
Aren't most of the Dish LIL converted to 720p to use slightly less bandwidth? If so, is your set 720p or 1080i? A match is likely to give a better picture. Of course, ABC and Fox are already 720p, generally.
-Ken
Click to expand...

When I was looking to buy an HD set the research that I did said that there were NO broadcasters who were sending out any 1080 they were all using 720p.
So is this still true?
 
wolfjc said:
When I was looking to buy an HD set the research that I did said that there were NO broadcasters who were sending out any 1080 they were all using 720p.
So is this still true?
Click to expand...
Your research was horribly flawed. It wasn't true when you were shopping and it still isn't true.

Typically, the Disney family (including ABC and ESPN) and Fox channels use 720p and most everyone else is 1080i. There are exceptions on both sides.
 
harshness said:
Your research was horribly flawed. It wasn't true when you were shopping and it still isn't true.

Typically, the Disney family (including ABC and ESPN) and Fox channels use 720p and most everyone else is 1080i. There are exceptions on both sides.
Click to expand...

I live in Dallas with a roof top antenna, hands down the OTA's are better than dish, using the dsiplay on the TV it is easy to confirm that what ever the resolution of the over the air, Dish is the same. Fox 720, abc 1080i. Still the OTA is slightly better, Dish must slightly compress the signa.
 
I get Dallas locals from E*, and Austin locals via OTA. Not an apples to apples, obviously, but I can't really tell much of a difference for HD programs btwn Dallas sat and Austin OTA. Where I do see a big difference is in the SD content. For example, Meet the Press (SD) looks good from Dallas KXAS via *E, but looks like serious crap coming OTA from Austin KXAN. Just goes to show that what your OTA station sends is key.
 
what?

sgt940 said:
I live in Dallas with a roof top antenna, hands down the OTA's are better than dish, using the dsiplay on the TV it is easy to confirm that what ever the resolution of the over the air, Dish is the same. Fox 720, abc 1080i. Still the OTA is slightly better, Dish must slightly compress the signa.
Click to expand...

Both Fox & ABC are 720p. CBS, NBC,& PBS are 1080i.
 
Unless I am mis-remembering, all Dish signals from the satellite are 1080i, with the 720P signals down (or up?) converted prior to transmission. For those that have 720P TVs, the signal is then converted in the box (receiver) to the correct format.

A clean OTA signal of 1920x1080i should be better than Dish's 1440x1080i, but as we know many stations like to break up their capacity and piggy-back a weather station and a secondary SD program (such as CW) to their HD signal. When stations do that, they may be broadcasting in something like 1280x1080i (or even 1080x1080i) for their main signal, and their signal quality is noticably less.

I think there are a couple of threads on the forum that discuss this "breakage" issue.

Regards,
Fitzie
 

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