Locals and Nationals

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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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Why can't Directv and Dishnet lobby to change some of the programming rules?

As a consumer, why can't I pay for the national feeds and buy locals from another area? If I am willing to pay for it, why can't I receive it?

I am originally from Indianapolis and was promoted to Columbia Missouri. I would like to purchase the Indianapolis locals. I would much rather see what is going on 'at home' than what is going on in Central Missouri. I should also be permitted to purchase the east and west coast network feeds.

You would think that Directv would have the ability to run all the locals in the 7000's channel numbers. I realize the government is trying to protect terrestrial television and local markets, but this is not the governments job.

One way to insure their local channels get some revenue is by implementing the following fee structures:

1. If you purchase the network feeds, 50% of the fee reverts back to your local market (DMA).

2. If you purchase additional local markets - like if we purchased the Indy locals - the fee would be split between both the Columbia local market and the Indy local market.

As consumers, we need to demand that we can purchase the programming we desire.
 
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buckeye927

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Jun 22, 2006
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Never understood the ad revenue argument

I live in Marietta Ohio. We are about 100 miles from both Charleston WV and Columbus OH. both of which are available on local cable. We have a local NBC station in Parkerburg WV (one of the five smallest DMAs). I am able to receive distant nets from New York for ABC, CBS, and FOX, but must get NBC ota.

My argument has always been if I see an ad for a pizza place in Charleston or New York City I'm not going to jump in the car and go there. So the ad dollars are wasted on me either way. Since I am completley insignifcant to the ad dollar I should be able to choose where I want my programming from. I would choose Columbus since I went to tOSU and I live in Ohio and don't really care about WV.

I have always felt the rules should be if your local DMA is not available then you get to choose a regional DMA. In my case, NBC included. I have some issues with my local NBC but that is another issue.
 
Derwin0

Derwin0

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Why can't Directv and Dishnet lobby to change some of the programming rules?
Because the Networks own the programming due to copywrites, and have the affiliate system set up to distribute the programming as they want. The affiliates have agreements with the Networks to be the exclusive distributor in their areas. Government had NOTHING to do with setting that system up, it was setup by the networks themselves.

The Distants are setup as an exception to copyright law, not as a restriction, for the express purpose of serving areas that had no network coverage. Without gov't intervention, then the distances would not be there to begin with.

If a channel wanted to be seen elsewhere, all they have to do is what WTBS used to do. Clear their copywrites nationwide and then they could be sent out. Remember, the channels don't own the programming, the producers of the programming own it, and have entered into agreements with networks/stations to show that programming in the areas the networks/stations have paid for.

If you want to know what is happening back "home", most channels put their news on their websites. Some even stream the news broadcasts.
 
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tmikeb

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Because the Networks own the programming due to copywrites, and have the affiliate system set up to distribute the programming as they want. The affiliates have agreements with the Networks to be the exclusive distributor in their areas. Government had NOTHING to do with setting that system up, it was setup by the networks themselves.

The Distants are setup as an exception to copyright law, not as a restriction, for the express purpose of serving areas that had no network coverage. Without gov't intervention, then the distances would not be there to begin with.

If a channel wanted to be seen elsewhere, all they have to do is what WTBS used to do. Clear their copywrites nationwide and then they could be sent out. Remember, the channels don't own the programming, the producers of the programming own it, and have entered into agreements with networks/stations to show that programming in the areas the networks/stations have paid for.

If you want to know what is happening back "home", most channels put their news on their websites. Some even stream the news broadcasts.

Okay, I hear what you are saying, but if I am willing to pay which would result in additional revenue for the locals, why would the networks be against it. What ends up happening is that I never watch the networks.
 
atp1313

atp1313

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Mar 1, 2005
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Another thing to consider in your case is the size of the LIL spotbeam for Indy. Would it reach central MO? Not likely, so you physically wouldn't have that option for "back home" news unless every single DMA was put on a CONUS beam. Don't think D* is interested in that.
 
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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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Another thing to consider in your case is the size of the LIL spotbeam for Indy. Would it reach central MO? Not likely, so you physically wouldn't have that option for "back home" news unless every single DMA was put on a CONUS beam. Don't think D* is interested in that.

According to my service tech, the secondary local dish will be going away when the locals start being beamed in HD. Apparently, everything is going to one satellite.
 
atp1313

atp1313

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The second dish isn't the issue. It's the actual coverage of the signal being beamed down from space. The CONUS signal covers the entire country. The spot beams only cover a certain smaller geographic in various places in the country. Spot beams can vary in size from 100 miles in diameter to a couple hundred miles for the larger DMA's.
 
rad

rad

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According to my service tech, the secondary local dish will be going away when the locals start being beamed in HD. Apparently, everything is going to one satellite.

The need for the secondary dish at 72.5 for some SD locals will be going away. The transponder licenses there are leased from Canada and that lease expires soon. D* will be migrating those folks to one of the 99 or 103 Ka satellites before that happens. Everything will not be going to one satellite, even at a single orbital position there can be multiple satellites (Like 103 which has Spaceway1 and DirecTV10). What's supposed to happen is that for the normal core programming you'll need acccess to 99, 101 and 103, that's it.
 
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texasbrit

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Okay, I hear what you are saying, but if I am willing to pay which would result in additional revenue for the locals, why would the networks be against it. What ends up happening is that I never watch the networks.

Your local station does not want you to watch another provider of network programming because the whole existence of the station is based on getting ad revenue. If you watch a prime time program from (say) New York, you don't see any of the local advertising, so local companies will stop placing ads because the viewing audiwence is less. And the local station does not get the lead-in audience for the local news either, so eventually the local station cuts back on its news programs. You would be striking at the heart of the network distribution model and no amount of compensatory revenue would make up for that. In the limit you would get the local station just going off the air and making a profit just off the compensatory revenue stream.

Also as has been mentioned all local HD with the exception of NY and LA is on spotbeams and is not receivable outside the spotbeam, so if you were (say) in Dallas and you wanted to receive Phoenix locals they would not be available anyway. And that won't change, because the only thing that makes HD locals possible is the use of spotbeams so you can use the same frequencies for different cities..
 
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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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The second dish isn't the issue. It's the actual coverage of the signal being beamed down from space. The CONUS signal covers the entire country. The spot beams only cover a certain smaller geographic in various places in the country. Spot beams can vary in size from 100 miles in diameter to a couple hundred miles for the larger DMA's.

Why would they not want to do this if they could make some money on it?
 
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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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Your local station does not want you to watch another provider of network programming because the whole existence of the station is based on getting ad revenue. If you watch a prime time program from (say) New York, you don't see any of the local advertising, so local companies will stop placing ads because the viewing audiwence is less. And the local station does not get the lead-in audience for the local news either, so eventually the local station cuts back on its news programs. You would be striking at the heart of the network distribution model and no amount of compensatory revenue would make up for that. In the limit you would get the local station just going off the air and making a profit just off the compensatory revenue stream.

Also as has been mentioned all local HD with the exception of NY and LA is on spotbeams and is not receivable outside the spotbeam, so if you were (say) in Dallas and you wanted to receive Phoenix locals they would not be available anyway. And that won't change, because the only thing that makes HD locals possible is the use of spotbeams so you can use the same frequencies for different cities..

First off, consumers should dictate who wins, not government regulation. Currently, my locals get zero hits from my home so how does that effect their ad revenue?

The spotbeam issue would be one that would be hard to get around. How many local channels does D* carry? Is the technology available to offer my idea, if all parties agreed to it?
 
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richiephx

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Feb 1, 2006
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Why would they not want to do this if they could make some money on it?

Because they are stupid and archaic in their thinking. The bottom line is, what they think is best for the network, not the viewer.
 
atp1313

atp1313

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No one is stopping you from offering your ideas to E* or D*. In fact, good luck! But it won't wash. The gov't, believe it or not, is actually helping you by requiring the exemption for receiving the DNS network feeds...if your local affiliates approve the request. But that is limited to the East/West Coast "mothership" feeds from the network sources themselves. Those networks are on CONUS beams and reach everyone who is allowed to get them. But the non-NYC/LA feeds are all spot beamed so no dice on getting anything else.

While you may claim to not be watching the local channel(s), you are still a member of your DMA as counted by the local affiliate. Those numbers are used for their ad sales. They don't claim that xx% watch every ad...they simply tell the prospective vendors/advertisers that "there are XX people living in the market and you have the opportunity to reach them if you buy ad space on our channel".

And I think TexasBrit answered the main questions quite well. If we were to do as you suggest, we lose the local markets by attrition, then the networks lose their kickback on ads and we lose better programming. D* loses money because the networks would try to bargain up the price per sub to cover the loses down the stream, and more people would say no thank you and find another provider. So you have now single handlely killed broadcast television. :D Congratulations!! ;)

It's not THAT bad...I exaggerate for emphasis. But the way we have it works. Can it be improved? Sure. Allow us to select a neighboring significantly viewed network, but that is for overlapping DMA's....not hundreds of miles away. And there may be other simple ideas out there. But what you are suggesting WILL NOT HAPPEN
 
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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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No one is stopping you from offering your ideas to E* or D*. In fact, good luck! But it won't wash. The gov't, believe it or not, is actually helping you by requiring the exemption for receiving the DNS network feeds...if your local affiliates approve the request. But that is limited to the East/West Coast "mothership" feeds from the network sources themselves. Those networks are on CONUS beams and reach everyone who is allowed to get them. But the non-NYC/LA feeds are all spot beamed so no dice on getting anything else.

While you may claim to not be watching the local channel(s), you are still a member of your DMA as counted by the local affiliate. Those numbers are used for their ad sales. They don't claim that xx% watch every ad...they simply tell the prospective vendors/advertisers that "there are XX people living in the market and you have the opportunity to reach them if you buy ad space on our channel".

And I think TexasBrit answered the main questions quite well. If we were to do as you suggest, we lose the local markets by attrition, then the networks lose their kickback on ads and we lose better programming. D* loses money because the networks would try to bargain up the price per sub to cover the loses down the stream, and more people would say no thank you and find another provider. So you have now single handlely killed broadcast television. :D Congratulations!! ;)

It's not THAT bad...I exaggerate for emphasis. But the way we have it works. Can it be improved? Sure. Allow us to select a neighboring significantly viewed network, but that is for overlapping DMA's....not hundreds of miles away. And there may be other simple ideas out there. But what you are suggesting WILL NOT HAPPEN

So, require everyone to take their local dma's plus permit them to purchase additional ones. That way the local market can still state accurately that XX people living in the market that you have the opportunity to reach. In the end, do you really think 100's of thousands of people would buy additional dma's? It would have little if any effect at all.

If the locals dry up, someone else will take their place if their is a void that truly needs filled. You are making the same argument that terrestrial radio made to fight satellite radio. What has happened? Some terrestrial radio stations are not on XM like WLW out of Cincy. Has it hurt anything? No, but it has helped them gain listenership.
 
atp1313

atp1313

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do you really think 100's of thousands of people would buy additional dma's? It would have little if any effect at all.
And if D* (or E*) can't secure 100's of thousands of people to do this, then where is their finacial motivation? Primarily, the technology is not there. The sky would have to be filled with satellites to the point that they would block sunlight in order to get enough transponders to carry 210 DMA's worth of individual network/affiliate feeds in SD and HD.

tmikeb said:
You are making the same argument that terrestrial radio made to fight satellite radio. What has happened? Some terrestrial radio stations are not on XM like WLW out of Cincy. Has it hurt anything? No, but it has helped them gain listenership.
No, I don't think I am. The XM/Sirius option is CONUS by it's very nature. No matter where you go in the country, you can get the same channel(s). This means that there are what, 150 national channels with either or both sat radio services. And keep in mind that the audio only aspect of satellite radio requires much smaller bandwidth per transponder. For D* and E*, you would be talking about 210 DMA's times 4-7 network feeds per market for anywhere between 840-1470 individual channels...not to mention the "cable" channels carried by D* & E*. Simply put, it's not in the financial interest of D* or E* to undertake this task.
 
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tmikeb

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Aug 13, 2008
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And if D* (or E*) can't secure 100's of thousands of people to do this, then where is their finacial motivation? Primarily, the technology is not there. The sky would have to be filled with satellites to the point that they would block sunlight in order to get enough transponders to carry 210 DMA's worth of individual network/affiliate feeds in SD and HD.


No, I don't think I am. The XM/Sirius option is CONUS by it's very nature. No matter where you go in the country, you can get the same channel(s). This means that there are what, 150 national channels with either or both sat radio services. And keep in mind that the audio only aspect of satellite radio requires much smaller bandwidth per transponder. For D* and E*, you would be talking about 210 DMA's times 4-7 network feeds per market for anywhere between 840-1470 individual channels...not to mention the "cable" channels carried by D* & E*. Simply put, it's not in the financial interest of D* or E* to undertake this task.

Good points. I don't know that much about the technology but it just didn't seem like it would be that difficult.
 
atp1313

atp1313

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It's not that tricky when it's just the NYC/LA networks on a CONUS beam, but trying to carry the other 208 DMA's on a CONUS beam is WAY more complicated AND expensive.
 
mlb

mlb

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It isn't more complicated... it just uses up very valuable bandwidth needed to give everyone the national channels.
 
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tmikeb

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I wish they would at least let me purchase the coast feeds to compliment my locals. How many more satellites would they need to do this?
 
mlb

mlb

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I wish they would at least let me purchase the coast feeds to compliment my locals. How many more satellites would they need to do this?

As stated before, D* would love to do that but the networks don't allow it. They protect the territory of their local stations hence you can't purchase other markets without a waiver from your local market.
 
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