OTA digital issue for WYOU 22-1 and WBRE 28-1

[buckspaul]

I'm having an issue receiving both WYOU and WBRE digital channels. I have a large winguard uhf correctly alligned although im 58 miles from their transmitter.
i have line of sight right to horizon and well within both -41 dBm as per the fcc maps, the signal strength is very high on both 22-1 and 28-1. But why do i constantly have PIXEL and Audio break up, could this because their digital channels are located on 11 and 13 while i have a uhf antenna? or could they have the issue?

 

[Rick0725]

It is most likely the combination of signal blocked by the geography between the towers and your home and using your uhf antenna to receive vhf. seeing the horizon does not mean a thing if there hills blocking signal on the way to your home...there are a ton of hills down there.

add a winegard ya-1713 high band vhf antenna combined with your current uhf antenna with a cm0549 vhf/uhf antenna combiner or with the appropriate dual input antenna preamp.

If you want to improve signal on the uhf side, suggest an antennas direct 91xg. The bowties do a crappy job with multipath and I do not suggest one where you live.

this will get you the best of both worlds. uhf on top and vhf combined about 3' below.

 

[techpuppy]

Digital VHF Transmitting Power

From my own experience and what I'm reading in other forums I think that VHF DTV stations are severely underestimating the power they need to duplicate their analog coverage area.

From my own experience I can pick up KRCG analog most of the time with very good to excellent picture quality. (Analog 13). So it would seem that picking up their digital signal (ch. 12) would be as likely. I have never been able to lock in or scan their digital signal. Once in a great while I get a small blip on the signal strength, but it's never enough. I even picked up a weaker UHF digital (KMIZ) that is further away.

I've noticed this same trend for several other VHF digitals including KMBC from Kansas City and others.

 

[Tower Guy]

From my own experience and what I'm reading in other forums I think that VHF DTV stations are severely underestimating the power they need to duplicate their analog coverage area.

From my own experience I can pick up KRCG analog most of the time with very good to excellent picture quality. (Analog 13). So it would seem that picking up their digital signal (ch. 12) would be as likely. I have never been able to lock in or scan their digital signal. Once in a great while I get a small blip on the signal strength, but it's never enough. I even picked up a weaker UHF digital (KMIZ) that is further away.

I've noticed this same trend for several other VHF digitals including KMBC from Kansas City and others.

That does not make sense. I'd suspect another unrelated problem such as the use of a 4228 UHF antenna. The 4228 is 12 db better on channel 13 than on 12 (KRCG-DT). KMBC-DT on channel 7 is down even more than 12 db. Some receivers may have a hard time dealing with the gain changing so much across channel 7 and 12.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The minimum signal to noise ratio for analog reception is 28 db. The highest TASO grade is 42 db or more. Yet a digital signal is perfect at 16 db s/n. To compare the two, you must use a 6 db correction factor because analog power is rated at peak power and DTV power is rated average power. ERGO, for highest picture quality, DTV requires 20 db less signal than analog, or 1 % of the transmitter power. If you look at the coverage countors for KRCG on the FCC web site you'll see the 20 db difference on the coverage maps, and the DTV signal is shown to reach further than the analog.
DTV: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT667698.html
Analog: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV1017197.html

That does not mean that the posters on other sites are wrong. I have noticed the same trend. You have to analyze each situation to see the cause of the problem before a conclusion can be made. Yes, the reception problems on DTV channels 2 and 3 are obvious. The reasons are higher noise and a need for more antenna height on the lowest VHF channels. The discrepency could be corrected by additional power on channels 2-6, but that can't happen until after the analogs are switched off or the higher power DTV stations will interfere with analog reception.

 

[techpuppy]

Tower Guy - Thank you for your informative reply!

Now I have some information to do some more research. I understand that the antenna could make a difference as well as the tuner. Using another example I occasionally get a strong signal from KAIT in Jonesboro, AR (analog 8). Their digital (ch. 9) signal is elusive at the same time.

I have even switched antennas to a combo antenna with no changes in results, as far as digital goes. When dxing I have received a digital signal as far away as 298 miles, but always UHF, never a VHF. I use an antenna rotator to tweak to the best signal level.

Just a few nights ago I picked up KNLJ DT from Jefferson City. It is very near KRCG's tower. Still no luck with KRCG DT. Again I realize I'm comparing a UHF with a VHF, but it just seems like such a dramatic difference.

 

[johnnytuinals]

Well Rick0725 might be right,I just ordered the Antennas Direct 91XG UHF and hope it does the Job............
I have the Winegard HD7084P in the Poconos in Brodheadsville 18322....
I am getting the 2 VHF 22.1 and 28.1 with very good signal from Scranton.....
I am getting the PBS stations in Scranton on 44.1,44.2,44.3,44.4 with a decent signal.....
Only problem 2 stations that I am not getting is ABC and FOX
Tonight I put the Antenna another 5 feet higher and the ABC station is trying very hard to come in.....
So I feel since I am just missing getting the station I might as well get the
Antennas Direct 91XG for $90 and hope I will be able to pull in that station among maybeeeee Fox.......JohnnyT

 

[Rick0725]

add the 91xg to your current setup on top and use the hd7084p for vhf about 3' apart on the mast.

combine the 2 antennas with a cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner or with your current preamp if it has 2 separate inputs for vhf and uhf.

when you assemble the antenna, the arrow on each of the elements point to the front of the antenna. the balun assembly gets mounted on the bottom of the antenna.

the coax is taped to the antenna support structure below and gets looped to the back of the antenna through the screens to the balun coax fitting.

the antenna is very directional and needs careful aiming.

 

[johnnytuinals]

Hope that I will get the 91xg by Friday,I know its gonna take awhile to put together....
Right now I am getting ABC on UHF from Scranton but its always popping in and out so I feel maybe the 91xg will help alot....
Yes I will move the antenna slow,I have all dayyyyy and night...
I have the Wingard Preamp that cost me around $60,,,not the cheaper one that they sell.....It only has one in and one out with the cable......
I was thinking of getting rid of my Winegard HD7084P,,,,Because I thought the
91xg will get channel 11 and 13 on the VHF side????............JohnnnyT

 

[Rick0725]

you can try the 91xg for the high band vhf digitals there...not sure how well it would receive in your case.

otherwise use both antennas ...91 xg top and hd7084P bottom about 3 feet apart, add a cm0549 vhf/uhf combiner ($7.36 - warren electronics) and amplify off the combined output of the cm0549.

I do that here...best of both worlds! see avatar. I will move my 91 xg to top in the spring when I do some maintenance work on the system.

 

[johnnytuinals]

Getting my 91 xg today sometime by UPS.....
Yes if I cannot pickup channel 11 and channel 13 on the VHF side with the 91 xg then I will use both antenna and will order the CM0549.....
Its funny I have 4 five foot radio shack poles to hold my antenna up on my deck...
with 3 poles I was not able to get ABC but with the extra 5 foot pole I am getting ABC with the local weather station that they broadcast,but with a terible signal where the station pops on and off,I hope that the 91xg will help,well I am sure it will help and give me a better reception...Hope to let yea know later,but I am sure the antenna will take awhile to put together...Thanks JT

 

[johnnytuinals]

Well I have just got my 91XG
I put it together and took my Winegard 7084P off and put the 91XG in its place.
The stations that would POP in and OUT now gives me a great signal,,,What a great antenna......
But I lost my 2 VHF stations,,,I thought maybe I could get Channel 11 and 13 on Channel 22 and 28 like I got with my Winegard,,,but Noooooo signal at allllllll....Dammmmmm.........
Well maybe instead of putting the Winegard backup maybe I can buy a Very Small VHF antenna,,,I was getting great reception on VHF before I took the winegard down....Maybe a Cheap antenna if that makes any sense.......
I am glad I listened to Rick and his good advise,,,Or would it make sense if I put the winegard back up MINUS the UHF part of the antenna??????
Now I need to buy a cm0549 and I am all set.............Geeeeeee what a very hard time I had,well not that hard but a tad annoying lol....JohnnyT

 

[Rick0725]

you can replace the hd7084 with a winegard ya1713 high band vhf antenna...not very expensive and alittle shorter.

but why bother screwing around with another antenna. you would need 2 antennas anyway and the hd7084p receives the entire vhf band including FM!

save your money and buy a few cases of rolling rock for the big game..

just think of all the satisafaction you gained from this entire experience when everything is all said and done.

and you achieved the impossible there...

 

[johnnytuinals]

Geeeee I am glad I didnot listen to Radioshack,they said that I could never receive Digital stations in my area....
And yes I will keep that big eye sore winegard antenna as you say,,,glad I just ordered the CM549 from Warren.........
I have a few cases of Coronas just incase if I ever run out of wine lol.....
Now maybe I can play around a tad with the 91XG and see what else I can pickup while I wait for my CM549 to come........Thanks For yea time and now I can put a roof mount on since I know that I can get all of the stations.......JohnnyT

 

[johnnytuinals]

Funny I lost my reception this morrring...Now its fine at night time...
but tonight its back to as it was....
Am wondering does daytime does anything to yeaaa reception at allllllll
Glad I will be seeing the CM549 within the next day or 2.........so I can watch VHF along with the UHF stations......JT

 

[johnnytuinals]

Just got my CM549 and it works great............Getting UHF and VHF on 1 cable going to my Amp with no problems....
Its funny the First night I got a better reception then I am getting now,,,Maybe its the weather we have been having....
I read that the 91Xg can also go Vertically mounted installation can be achieved...
So wondering has anyone seen if reception can come in a bit better???...thanks JohnnyT

 

[Rick0725]

you may want to try angling about 10 degrees toward the horizon...not vertical. a click or 2 on the antenna mounting clamp.

or experiment with location , heigth, aim again.

You may see improvement maybe not.

would be channel specific...one channel better another worse.

I was at the parent's and their fox was pixelating this afternoon....it was perfect last night.

what a pain in the ass!

 

[johnnytuinals]

I think I will wait till the weather gets a tad better and see whats happens.
I might put the antenna 5 feet higher,,,but the CM549 works great.......
Yeaaa know the weathers been very wettttt out here and we will see when it gets cold tomorrow and hope it will get clear,And see what happens...
So far its a good hobby lol.....johnnyT

 

[Rick0725]

here is some reading ..pertains to things we discussed or you were thinking about

91xg...cm4228...hd7084p...ya1713.

http://home.indy.rr.com/challengerul/antenna.html

http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/antennasdirect91xg.html