PQ D!SH vs Netflix

wormil

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Aug 30, 2008
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Why? The reason both streams are overcompressed is the same: cram more channels into the available bandwidth. :crying Many people aren't as concerned as we are about PQ, and even fewer IMHO are concerned with AQ.
Why? Because the file size difference between hq sound and crappy sound is tiny relative to video. And I think most people who have worked in audio/video would agree that sound is more important. A video with poor sound is unwatchable.

I disagree that fewer people are concerned with audio quality and believe I could prove it in real life with a simple demonstration. Just because people don't talk about it doesn't mean they don't value good sound. It's the type of thing you don't notice, until you do.
 

TheKrell

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Jan 4, 2007
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Why? Because the file size difference between hq sound and crappy sound is tiny relative to video.
That may be true but every little bit helps, particularly when you are adding up 8 or 10 channels on a single transponder.
And I think most people who have worked in audio/video would agree that sound is more important. A video with poor sound is unwatchable.
Now that is a remarkable statement considering all the deaf people who watch TV just fine. My wife is not deaf, but she generally runs CC on Netflix so that she can catch every word. Just consider how many people buy enormous flat panel TVs with the most crappy sound system in the western world! I think this is because manufacturers agree with me. ;) They even expect people like you and me to add an AVR to their TV and shut off the sound in the TV completely.
 

Bobby

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That may be true but every little bit helps, particularly when you are adding up 8 or 10 channels on a single transponder.


Now that is a remarkable statement considering all the deaf people who watch TV just fine. My wife is not deaf, but she generally runs CC on Netflix so that she can catch every word. Just consider how many people buy enormous flat panel TVs with the most crappy sound system in the western world! I think this is because manufacturers agree with me. ;) They even expect people like you and me to add an AVR to their TV and shut off the sound in the TV completely.
I think that is the point. DISH is catering to the TV speaker crowd while many have gone the AVR route. DISH needs to give more bandwidth to audio for the many, many of us who are setup with good sound systems.
 

Bobby

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Both my H3 and J3 run through Sony HT systems and I find the sound to be quite acceptable.
Yes, the sound is acceptable but it could be crisper. When I stream Showtime, for example, The sound is night and day from the Hopper feed.
 

wormil

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Aug 30, 2008
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That may be true but every little bit helps, particularly when you are adding up 8 or 10 channels on a single transponder.


Now that is a remarkable statement considering all the deaf people who watch TV just fine. My wife is not deaf, but she generally runs CC on Netflix so that she can catch every word. Just consider how many people buy enormous flat panel TVs with the most crappy sound system in the western world! I think this is because manufacturers agree with me. ;) They even expect people like you and me to add an AVR to their TV and shut off the sound in the TV completely.
Not talking about sound systems or the difference between stereo and surround, or the overly bright tv speakers vs good speakers, I'm talking about sound that isn't muddy and hard to understand. When it comes to audio people buy what they can afford. I have decent speakers and would appreciate better audio.
 

olds403

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Feb 3, 2009
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Not talking about sound systems or the difference between stereo and surround, or the overly bright tv speakers vs good speakers, I'm talking about sound that isn't muddy and hard to understand. When it comes to audio people buy what they can afford. I have decent speakers and would appreciate better audio.
I agree, while most of the time the sound on most shows are "ok", I find that Dish sound quality is muddy and difficult to understand quite often. I am not sure if it is the original sound production on the show in question, or if it is Dish's compression that makes it so bad. My wife watches a lot of ID network shows and sometimes the level of the background music is nearly as loud at the voices that she is trying to hear. The sound bar in the bedroom is definitely better than the crappy TV speakers but sometimes it is still an issue.

I hate CC, and my main system is a Pioneer AVR and NHT speakers so the sound is better on that, but there are still times when the voices seem to get drowned out on different programs. I know my hearing is ok, and it isn't on every program. I do find the audio on my roku devices (roku 3 and Roku ultra) from Netflix and Prime does sound much better, so that makes me think it is something that Dish is doing.
 

wormil

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Aug 30, 2008
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I agree, while most of the time the sound on most shows are "ok", I find that Dish sound quality is muddy and difficult to understand quite often. I am not sure if it is the original sound production on the show in question, or if it is Dish's compression that makes it so bad. My wife watches a lot of ID network shows and sometimes the level of the background music is nearly as loud at the voices that she is trying to hear. The sound bar in the bedroom is definitely better than the crappy TV speakers but sometimes it is still an issue.

I hate CC, and my main system is a Pioneer AVR and NHT speakers so the sound is better on that, but there are still times when the voices seem to get drowned out on different programs. I know my hearing is ok, and it isn't on every program. I do find the audio on my roku devices (roku 3 and Roku ultra) from Netflix and Prime does sound much better, so that makes me think it is something that Dish is doing.
I have old dish recordings on my EHD that I've compared to newer recordings of the same movie, the file sizes of the new ones are smaller, the sound significant worse, and the PQ is worse. The background music being too loud is because it's mixed for very loud volume, like a movie theater. If you crank the volume it'll sound better. Most AVR have a setting to fix that but I don't know why anyone would mix sound that way for tv shows, and the same shows on Netflix don't have that problem so it's definitely coming from Dish.
 

olds403

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Feb 3, 2009
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I have old dish recordings on my EHD that I've compared to newer recordings of the same movie, the file sizes of the new ones are smaller, the sound significant worse, and the PQ is worse. The background music being too loud is because it's mixed for very loud volume, like a movie theater. If you crank the volume it'll sound better. Most AVR have a setting to fix that but I don't know why anyone would mix sound that way for tv shows, and the same shows on Netflix don't have that problem so it's definitely coming from Dish.
One thing that I noticed when I moved from my old house in April 2018 and they switched me to a Hopper from my old original 722 was decreased picture quality. I had the same 65" display and watching Dish through the Hopper, it seems significantly softer than my old 722. Everyone told me I was imagining things, but I made no changes to the display, only difference was the Hopper.

The old 722 was able to map the image on the display pixel for pixel if you made no changes to the image size or location in the settings. The Hopper will not map the image pixel for pixel, if I do not modify the image in settings for size and location it has a TON of overscan on my Plasma TV. I don't care what anyone tells me, the Hopper processes the image differently than the 722 and it is softer.
 
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n0qcu

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Modifying the image size/position ONLY changes the DISH overlays (menus, guide, etc.) It makes absolutely zero changes to the program images.
 

olds403

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Feb 3, 2009
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michigan
Modifying the image size/position ONLY changes the DISH overlays (menus, guide, etc.) It makes absolutely zero changes to the program images.
With my Hopper with Sling, If I do not shrink the image and move it slightly down (where you line up the circles with the corners of the screen to size/position the PICTURE IMAGE) there is a massive amount of overscan on my display. It will actually cut off portions of the station ID logos in the lower right corner of the screen unless I resize the picture image.

And this I believe is part of the problem with the image being soft on my Hopper with Sling, it is resizing the image to fit on my display, the additional processing is not good for picture quality.
 
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eddie willers

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Sep 15, 2003
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I know my hearing is ok,
If you are a male over 40, you are wrong. My hearing (at 68) is as sensitive to overall volume as when I was younger, BUT, there is a dip at frequencies that, unfortunately, are in the human voice range. You may think you hearing is OK because it doesn't sound as if anything is softer, but it is.

This is why so many wives think their husband aren't listening to them. They are wrong. Their husbands literally can't hear them. "Hmmm...did you say something, Honey?"
 

wormil

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Aug 30, 2008
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North Carolina
If you are a male over 40, you are wrong. My hearing (at 68) is as sensitive to overall volume as when I was younger, BUT, there is a dip at frequencies that, unfortunately, are in the human voice range. You may think you hearing is OK because it doesn't sound as if anything is softer, but it is.

This is why so many wives think their husband aren't listening to them. They are wrong. Their husbands literally can't hear them. "Hmmm...did you say something, Honey?"
We can hear them but they chatter nonstop so we learn to tune them out, lol. But it is true that our hearing begins degrading in our 20s, high freqs are the first to go.
 

msmith198025

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Aug 28, 2007
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Well now,
What with the stay home virus pandemic.
The streaming services are now starting to cut back their bandwidth.
Youtube dropped to 480.
Surely netflix and others won't be far behind.
Imagine if streaming was THE major player in content distribution....
Overloaded servers cutting back bandwidth or shutting down...
AOL of the 90s


Sent from my SM-G930P using the SatelliteGuys app!
They only changed the default to SD for the short term. The user can set it higher if they choose.
 
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olds403

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Feb 3, 2009
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168
michigan
I verified the picture quality issue this weekend. I was over at my parent's house (they still have a 722k) and my dad was watching TCM on his panasonic plasma, and the picture was noticeably sharper than the same channel on my HWS on my Panasonic plasma. What makes it even worse is I have a Darbee device running on my setup that sharpens the picture, his setup has the video straight out of the 722k to his tv with no additional sharpening and it was still sharper and more detailed than on mine. I have always thought my HWS picture quality was not as sharp as my old 722, and seeing my dads tv last weekend proved it to me.
 

eddie willers

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Sep 15, 2003
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I verified What makes it even worse is I have a Darbee device running on my setup that sharpens the picture, his setup has the video straight out of the 722k
There it is!

Get that thing out of there. I had one, and it was great, ....on my 722. I forget why now, but it is also a limiter and technology has passed it by. It is choking your picture. Kind of like early "line doublers". It didn't take long before they did more damage that they cured.
 

olds403

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Feb 3, 2009
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michigan
There it is!

Get that thing out of there. I had one, and it was great, ....on my 722. I forget why now, but it is also a limiter and technology has passed it by. It is choking your picture. Kind of like early "line doublers". It didn't take long before they did more damage that they cured.
No that is not it, as I had the Darbee device on the old 722/plasma combination and it does improve the current picture, I can see that when I turn it on and off, but the picture coming from the Hopper is nowhere near as sharp and detailed as the 722 was with or without the Darbee. The picture on the Hopper with Sling that I have is inferior to the 722 that I had previously. Nothing to really be done about it, it is what it is, but one would not think that advancing technology would reduce picture quality. I got that 722 in 2008, it would be 12 years old now.
 

eddie willers

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Sep 15, 2003
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Braselton, Ga.
I was thinking you had the Hopper3. Darbee can't do 4K. I went and checked to see if they had a new product (as I said, I loved mine until I upgraded to the Hopper3) but they seem stuck. As far as I can tell, they have no new products and their best licensee (oppo) has gone belly up.
 

omeletpants

SatelliteGuys Family
Mar 12, 2006
100
62
Why? Because the file size difference between hq sound and crappy sound is tiny relative to video. And I think most people who have worked in audio/video would agree that sound is more important. A video with poor sound is unwatchable.

I disagree that fewer people are concerned with audio quality and believe I could prove it in real life with a simple demonstration. Just because people don't talk about it doesn't mean they don't value good sound. It's the type of thing you don't notice, until you do.
Totally agree. I have a Sony HTST3000 which is my first soundbar. Occasionally it disconnects (and it reverts to tv audio) and the difference in audio and voice clarity is shocking
 

Tony S

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olds403: I have been on this board for a long time (actually since day 1) and mostly everyone else has posted the opposite of what you have said. Most people have experienced better picture quality with the Hopper compared to the older receivers (newer chip set).

I saw an improvement in PQ when I traded in my 722K for a HWS. I am not sure why you are seeing the opposite.
 

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