Real and Virtual Channel Numbers

E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
Does anyone know if the confusion will go on forever? For example ch 7 and ch 13 will be OK as they presumably go back to their assigned VHF frequencies, but chs 2-6 will remain on UHF. So, will we call them by their UHF ch numbers or continue the confusion by using VHF ch numbers?
 
Don_M

Don_M

SatelliteGuys Guru
Apr 30, 2008
128
0
Aurora, CO
Does anyone know if the confusion will go on forever? For example ch 7 and ch 13 will be OK as they presumably go back to their assigned VHF frequencies, but chs 2-6 will remain on UHF. So, will we call them by their UHF ch numbers or continue the confusion by using VHF ch numbers?

The confusion lives on forever. The FCC mandated use of the original, analog channel numbers as identification by stations, regardless of whether they were to end up back at their original channel assignment after the transition or were to remain at their new DTV assignment permanently. All DTV receivers have the ability to "re-map" from the actual channel and display the mandatory channel assignment. The only time one needs to know actual channel numbers is when deciding on an antenna system to receive local signals.

I suspect this was the result of successful lobbying by the National Association of Broadcasters, whose members undoubtedly didn't want to undertake lengthy and expensive -- and perhaps even more confusing -- re-branding campaigns during the digital transition.
 
S

stck4evr

SatelliteGuys Family
Mar 6, 2006
82
0
chicago
Which channel spectrum was sold? I thought all channels below 18 were going away?
I know in Chicago CBS channel 2 is on channel 3, which is very annoing, since this is the only digital channel below 19, so you need a bigger VHF antenna just to get that. I wonder if they
will push it up to above 19 after "transition".
 
Jim5506

Jim5506

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
7,759
2,684
Lubbock, Texas
The only channels not being used after the digital transition are 37 and 52 and above. Some parts of the country can use VHF low successfullyand there are maybe 10-15 or so stations in that band.

It's great for DXing.
 
M

Mr Tony

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
335
91
Mankato, MN
most electronic equipment will map them to the correct channel..

see below...where I live (Minneapolis, MN) the digital channels have different slots than analog. Come 2/09 some will change to ANOTHER slot.
7-13 most cases will move the digital channel to the old analog slot. Here is the example

(33) indicates the current and post-transition DTV broadcast channel.
(38) (8) indicates the current DTV broadcast channel followed by the post-transition DTV broadcast channel.


2.1 KTCA-DT PBS St. Paul (34)
2.2 KTCA-DT2 PBS HD St. Paul (34)
4.1 WCCO-DT CBS Minneapolis (32)
5.1 KSTP-DT ABC St. Paul (50) (35)
5.2 KSTP-DT2 Radar/News St. Paul (50) (35)
9.1 KMSP-DT FOX Minneapolis (26) (9)
11.1 KARE-DT NBC Minneapolis (35) (11)
11.2 KARE-DT2 NBC WX+ Minneapolis (35) (11)
17.1 KTCI-DT PBS St. Paul (16) (26)
17.2 KTCI-DT2 MN Channel St. Paul (16) (26)
17.3 KTCI-DT3 TPTKids St. Paul (16) (26)
17.4 KTCI-DT4 Create St. Paul (16) (26)
17.5 KTCI-DT5 Weather St. Paul (16) (26)
23.1 WUCW-DT CW Minneapolis (22)
29.1 WFTC-DT My Minneapolis (21) (29)
41.1 KPXM-DT ION St. Cloud (40)
41.2 KPXM-DT2 qubo St. Cloud (40)
41.3 KPXM-DT3 ION Life St. Cloud (40)
41.4 KPXM-DT4 Worship St. Cloud (40)
45.1 KSTC-DT Ind. Minneapolis (44) (45)

no matter what, my equipment recognizes it as 2,4,5,9,11,17,23,29,41,45 no matter what channel its on digitally due to PSIP :)
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
According to tvfool.com CBS 2 in Chicago will be on ch 12 after the switch. One prime reason for the mandate is that the gov wants lowband for homeland security and public safety, the frequencies the gov doesn't want will be auctioned off $$$.
 
T

texasbrit

SatelliteGuys Pro
Pub Member / Supporter
Apr 12, 2006
3,650
361
The confusion lives on forever. The FCC mandated use of the original, analog channel numbers as identification by stations, regardless of whether they were to end up back at their original channel assignment after the transition or were to remain at their new DTV assignment permanently. All DTV receivers have the ability to "re-map" from the actual channel and display the mandatory channel assignment. The only time one needs to know actual channel numbers is when deciding on an antenna system to receive local signals.

I suspect this was the result of successful lobbying by the National Association of Broadcasters, whose members undoubtedly didn't want to undertake lengthy and expensive -- and perhaps even more confusing -- re-branding campaigns during the digital transition.

I am sure this was an NAB idea. IMHO it creates a real mess. It may have been OK pre-transition, where a station was using two different frequencies - one for analog and one for digital - and wanted to retain the analog channel number as its identity. But if the digital channel is going to stay on the "new" frequency, they should have been forced to use the different channel ID.
It's even more confusing with digital translators (low-power stations). If a station has four translators, they will all have the same virtual channel number even though they are transmitting on different frequencies.
 
M

MW390

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 16, 2005
216
0
Good question. I assume they'll still call themselves CW-11 or WABC-7 like they presently do in NYC. As for the spectrum sold, I was told a few years ago by some guy in the industry that UHF ch 62-69 were being freed up for the emergency responder guys and the like
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
Apparently there's a learning curve for the stations too. I was rescanning trying to get ch 7 wherever its DTV is before sunup this morning and later noticed that ch 13 now shows up as 13.1, 13.2 and 13.3 was also picked up as 56.1, 56.2 and 56.3. I never got ch 7's DT, I may have to wait until the switch.
 
T

Tower Guy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 1, 2005
744
116
According to tvfool.com CBS 2 in Chicago will be on ch 12 after the switch. One prime reason for the mandate is that the gov wants lowband for homeland security and public safety, the frequencies the gov doesn't want will be auctioned off $$$.

Not true. Low band will continue to be used for DTV.

Lowband is better at reaching over hills than High band VHF or UHF.
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
Not true. Low band will continue to be used for DTV.

Lowband is better at reaching over hills than High band VHF or UHF.
I just report what I read. My ch 4 is on ch 59 now, but will be ch 36 after switch. . . This from Mike Kohl of Golbal Communications . . . . Complicating things even more has been a new law that will eliminate TV channels 52 to 69, further squeezing the number of frequencies available. That spectrum, in the 700 to 800 MHz area, will be sold to other users such as mobile telephone companies, to enrich the Federal treasury. The VHF low-band, from channels 2 through 6 will also be less congested, because stations have been encouraged to move elsewhere in the channel 7 to 51 range permanently. Less than a hundred stations should remain on channels 2 to 6 after the conversion has been completed, which will allow the government to auction off use of some of that spectrum for other uses in certain areas. Many stations temporarily transmitting digital on UHF channels have happily applied to use their old high band VHF (channel 7 to 13) frequency after the switch because of the better outlying coverage of VHF as compared to UHF frequencies.
 
Peter Parker

Peter Parker

Formerly Geronimo
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,114
1,689
Low band VHF will still be available for broadcasters. At one time turning part of it over for other pyposes was discussed but it never happened. Having fewer than 100 statiosn there pretty much proves that it si not going away. I have no idea why anyone thought that anything below 18 will go away.

TV fool.com can give you the post switchover actual channel assignements. a channels scan on that date might also help.

by the way these changes are not consistent city to city. so reporting wher ch 4 or 7 is might be a bit misleading.
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
Low band VHF will still be available for broadcasters. At one time turning part of it over for other pyposes was discussed but it never happened. Having fewer than 100 statiosn there pretty much proves that it si not going away. I have no idea why anyone thought that anything below 18 will go away.

TV fool.com can give you the post switchover actual channel assignements. a channels scan on that date might also help.

by the way these changes are not consistent city to city. so reporting wher ch 4 or 7 is might be a bit misleading.
Lowband is chs 2-6 then a break for FM broadcast radio before continuing with chs 7-13. It is chs 2-6 that the FCC wants.
 
T

texasbrit

SatelliteGuys Pro
Pub Member / Supporter
Apr 12, 2006
3,650
361
Lowband is chs 2-6 then a break for FM broadcast radio before continuing with chs 7-13. It is chs 2-6 that the FCC wants.


No, the FCC does not "want" 2-6 VHF-lo. Any TV station was allowed to request 2-6 if it wanted and a number of stations whose analog channel was on 2-6 decided to put their digital station there. The FCC simply pointed out that there were issues with 2-6 and that stations might find things easier if they used VHF-hi or UHF.
 
navychop

navychop

Member of the Month - July 2014!
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Jul 20, 2005
54,557
19,825
Northern VA
Too much money was spent on name branding things like "News 9" to lose that identity.

Most of the world has dropped the VHF band for digital transmissions. Sadly, not us.

Channel 2 is very much in question as to if it will work out well for digital transmissions. Low VHF is perhaps not the best choice.

In fact, there is some question if free OTA broadcasts will be able to continue for too many more years as going concerns. Multicasting may help keep them alive. Or kill them, if too many people demand HD and won't watch anything else. My nickel is on survival.

I suspect that any new stations will be pushed to UHF or high VHF stations. I doubt very much that anyone will be licensed to transmit TV in the low VHF band unless there is no space elsewhere. Yes, the space can be auctioned off for other uses, but geographically limited uses.

We used to have channels 1-83. Channel 1 was dropped very early on, as infeasible. In 2004 we dropped to channels 2-69. After conversion, we will have channels 2-51.
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
It seems the FCC has backpedaled a bit which added to the confusion . . . .
Originally the FCC defined a DTV channel allocation plan in which all television stations would operate in the UHF range of channel 14-51. VHF channels, as well as UHF channels 52-69 would be reallocated (auctioned off) to new services. The FCC assigned a new temporary UHF channel in the 14-51 range to existing TV broadcast stations to begin DTV service during the transition period. However, due to complaints from TV station owners and lobbyists, the FCC reversed itself and decided to keep the VHF channels in the mix.
 
Peter Parker

Peter Parker

Formerly Geronimo
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,114
1,689
Lowband is chs 2-6 then a break for FM broadcast radio before continuing with chs 7-13. It is chs 2-6 that the FCC wants.

They may or may not want it but it is not avaialble. The portion of the UHF spectrum above 51 will be sold. VHF 2-6 will not.


(Efit I see that elder has changed his position and now agrees with my original statement that at one time some of VHF was going away but no longer is)

BTW I really don't see the cause for confusion here. you scan and then tou tune as you always did. BTW if chahnel 7 is broadcadting digitally at 34 you can tune to it by tuning to 7 or 34. So even if you can't recall which channel scheme to follow you can still find it.
 
Last edited:
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
They may or may not want it but it is not avaialble. The portion of the UHF spectrum above 51 will be sold. VHF 2-6 will not.


(Efit I see that elder has changed his position and now agrees with my original statement that at one time some of VHF was going away but no longer is)

BTW I really don't see the cause for confusion here. you scan and then tou tune as you always did. BTW if chahnel 7 is broadcadting digitally at 34 you can tune to it by tuning to 7 or 34. So even if you can't recall which channel scheme to follow you can still find it.
Maybe after the switch. At present I can select CH 13 or CH 56 for CH 13, but CH 4 only as CH 4 my set didn't find CH 59 when it scanned. My assumption is that it depends upon what the station places in the stream as its identification. Also, my Sanyo set won't tune it if it didn't find it on scan.
As for CHs 2-6 only time will tell what the future holds there, will the 100 go up or down, will the FCC grant any more licenses or hold it to the 100?
 
Peter Parker

Peter Parker

Formerly Geronimo
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
Sep 9, 2003
12,114
1,689
I f you are watching the digital version of ch. 4 on ch 4 you can watch itat its actual locations as well. It would not be possible to receive it at the PSIP location and not the actual frequency.

i really think that you are looking for something to be confused about.
 
E

elder

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 17, 2007
426
5
I f you are watching the digital version of ch. 4 on ch 4 you can watch itat its actual locations as well. It would not be possible to receive it at the PSIP location and not the actual frequency.

i really think that you are looking for something to be confused about.
No confusion here, I'll try to make it simple for you. Ch 4 is broadcast digitally at Ch 59, but its identifier says Ch 4 and my Sanyo rejects Ch 59 if I try to select it and goes to the next lower scanned channel. However, Ch 13 is broadcast as Ch 56 and can be selected as either Ch 13 or Ch 56. I did note that if selected as Ch 56 program info does not show up when info is selected. Therefore, my conclusion that the station places the identification in its digital stream.
 

Similar threads

ENDelt260
Replies
1
Views
2K
Jim5506
Jim5506
Mister B
Replies
7
Views
2K
dhett
dhett
Peter Parker
Replies
2
Views
1K
bicker
bicker
Peter Parker
Replies
2
Views
714
harshness
harshness

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Latest posts

Top