Suddenly my locals have changed--no notice, no option

[JPatootie]

When we returned from Christmas vacation and hooked up our DVR, I called Dish to have our locals changed back to our home locals. We live in the 45895 zip and have always had Lima locals, with no option to choose Dayton, OH locals. The call was pretty normal, but when out Ohio guide came up, there was no Lima and all Dayton locals. This caused 'confusion' with our 100+ timers, so I called Dish to ask them to change our locals back to Lima, as there must have been some mistake.

They tell me that Dayton is our local choice when our zip is entered, while i know that our neighbor's locals are still Lima. I asked if something had changed and they had no answer for that. My neighbor has the newer Dish pointing to the SE. Ours is three years old, and points to the SW. Did a contract change as of the first of the year? Lima locals on Our SW Dish are not HD. Ay least the Dayton channels are.

 

[TNGTony]

The home of Neil Armstrong, the county seat of Auglaize county... the ping-pong ball between Dayton and Lima.

Auglaize county constantly jumps back and forth between the two TV markets. When you had the locals before they were essentially grandfathered from when you originally got the locals. Essentially your locals are frozen in whatever market your county was in for several years. When you cancel or turn them off and turn them back on, Dish has to (by law) give you the locals from the market that county is in at the time you are getting locals. There is no option, unfortunately.

 

[KE4EST]

Welcome to SatelliteGuys!!
Tony explained it pretty well, but unless that county changes again you are stuck with Dayton. Nice thing is your locals are now in HD, bad thing is you have to re-do your timers.

 

[mike123abc]

You can also "move" to somewhere that has Lima locals. You would have to call dish and change your "service" address to the new address, but can still leave the billing address the same.

 

[JPatootie]

So, then, my neighbors' who have Lima locals won't change until there is a change in their service? BTW--thanks for recognizing our favorite son--and 'ping-pong ball' is the perfect analogy, it appears, in this instance.

 

[TNGTony]

No problem. If your neighbors don't cancel or interrupt service, they will keep Lima locals almost indefinitely. In reality, if Auglaize county stays in the Dayton market for more than three years in a row (I think. Could be 5 years) then everyone in the county has to be switched. This happened in Pennsylvania between Washington and Harrisburg locals IIRC. But in all the time I have been keeping track of TV Markets (20 years), Auglaize county has not remained in either the Dayton or Lima market for more than 2 or 3 years at a time. The market lines are redrawn every September. The satellite companies (Dish and Direct) have to comply with these market lines the following January.

 

[JPatootie]

You can also "move" to somewhere that has Lima locals. You would have to call dish and change your "service" address to the new address, but can still leave the billing address the same.

We can get Lima locals with our antenna, but there is no guide to make timer recordings. I just am not understanding the no-notice, sudden change. But tha ks for the tip--I'm thinking someplace much warmer than Lima right now.

 

[TNGTony]

I'm not sure which receiver you have, but my 622 gets locals from Dayton via OTA antenna, and Cincinnati locals via OTA and Satellite. I get guide info for all the channels. It takes a day, or a hard reboot after you plug in your antenna to the receiver.

If your receiver has an OTA module or built in antenna jack hooking up that antenna to the receiver should do the trick.

 

[Mr Tony]

Looks like Dish doesnt care about the guide for Lima. Here are the stations with guide info

27-01 WBGU TSID 0x08B9, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 6585)
27-02 WBGU2 TSID 0x08B9, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 15138)
27-03 WBGU3 TSID 0x08B9, Subchannel 03 (DISH Channel 15139)
44-01 WTLW TSID 0x08ED, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 6584)

None of the Big4 have guide info

 

[TNGTony]

Ouch!

 

[Mr Tony]

that is just laziness on Dish's part if they can't even remap the Big 4 for OTA. I see they have done that in a few smaller markets (not map all of the big 4)

 

[Hall]

We can get Lima locals with our antenna, but there is no guide to make timer recordings. I just am not understanding the no-notice, sudden change. But tha ks for the tip--I'm thinking someplace much warmer than Lima right now.

Lima's locals, which are finally in HD, require a different satellite dish setup. Your current dish points SSW (Lima's non-HD channels are still there, by the way). Even if you "move" (that means tell Dish that your service address has changed) to Lima or probably Cridersville would work, it's not that simple - you would need a NEW dish installed (one that points SE, towards Indian Lake more).

By the way, Dish doesn't decide what locals you get - the TV industry itself does (I think - the "DMA" ?). Anyone looking at a map can see that Wapak (notice I didn't say Wapakoneta) is so much closer to Lima that it is to Dayton).

Lastly, isn't Neil from New Knoxville ?

 

[Hall]

Looks like Dish doesnt care about the guide for Lima. Here are the stations with guide info

None of the Big4 have guide info

I wonder if that list is out of date ? Dish carries Lima's locals in HD now so even satellite-delivered channels get NO guide data according to that ? I'll bet that guide data is pulled from a WA satellite and the proper data is only fed from EA now....

 

[Mr Tony]

I wonder if that list is out of date ?

no that list is current since it comes from the uplink reports

Dish carries Lima's locals in HD now so even satellite-delivered channels get NO guide data according to that ?

correct.

I'll bet that guide data is pulled from a WA satellite and the proper data is only fed from EA now....

it looks like it only pulls from WA. Looking at the charts if there is a HD & SD market it lists both channels. Using your market (Dayton) you'll see the 5XXX station (HD) and the 7XXX (SD) channel number listed. So if you have SD it grabs the SD channel, HD would grab the HD. The 5 digit ones are irrelevant as they are guide only. Only did the 1st couple
2-01 WDTN TSID 0x08E1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5252/7427)
2-02 WDTN2 TSID 0x08E1, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14682)
7-01 WHIO TSID 0x08E3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5251/7426)
7-02 WHIO2 TSID 0x08E3, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14946)

Bowling Green, KY is a split market and they list 2 channels (EA & WA) Big 4 bolded
13-01 WBKO TSID 0x04BF, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5260/6610)
13-02 WBKOD TSID 0x04BF, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 5263/6613)
13-03 WBKO3 TSID 0x04BF, Subchannel 03 (DISH Channel 14859)
24-01 WKYU TSID 0x04C1, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5265/6615)
40-01 WNKY TSID 0x04C3, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5262/6612)

40-02 WNKYD TSID 0x04C3, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 5261/6611)
48-01 WKGB TSID 0x04C5, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5264/6614)

Now looking at a market like Evansville which is a split (HD on EA, SD on WA) they dont list the EA channel numbers, but they do list the Big 4 (those are bolded) so those folks are kinda screwed if they are EA only
7-01 WTVW TSID 0x0445, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 7368)
12-01 WNIN1 TSID 0x0447, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 14409)
12-02 WNIN TSID 0x0447, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 7371)
14-01 WFIE TSID 0x0449, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 7367)
14-02 WFIE2 TSID 0x0449, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14408)
14-03 WFIE3 TSID 0x0449, Subchannel 03 (DISH Channel 15319)
25-01 WEHT TSID 0x044B, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 7365)
31-01 WKOH TSID 0x04F7, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 7372)
31-02 WKOH2 TSID 0x04F7, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 14539)
31-03 WKOH3 TSID 0x04F7, Subchannel 03 (DISH Channel 14411)
31-05 WKOH5 TSID 0x04F7, Subchannel 05 (DISH Channel 14541)
31-06 WKOH6 TSID 0x04F7, Subchannel 06 (DISH Channel 14542)
44-01 WEVV TSID 0x044D, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 7366)
44-02 WEVVD TSID 0x044D, Subchannel 02 (DISH Channel 5276/7370)

But in the case of Lima, those are the only stations with guide info.

I see some markets where DIsh doesn't carry the BIg4 guide info even when the stations are in market (not imported)
Victoria, TX NBC
Bangor, ME FOX
Bluefield/Beckley WV they ONLY carry the CW guide info
Cheyenne, WY NBC
Dothan, AL NBC
Fargo, ND CBS (this was a case of the CBS getting moved to the subchannel of NBC due to ownership...but dish carries the station on satellite)
Greenwood, MS NBC
Helena, MT ABC, CBS, FOX
Jackson, TN NBC & CBS

There are more but there is a quick short list of areas where Dish carries the local on satellite but doesnt remap it for OTA

 

[Nyth]

Make sure they have your street address formatted correctly in the service address field. I work in an area where we have a number small towns with zip codes that cross into more than one DMA. If Dish's computers can't pinpoint the address, there is a default DMA for the ZIP code and that is the one that you end up with. I have also seen where Dish has updated their address data base and had some address end up in the wrong DMA set and switching customers to a different DMA even though they have not moved. If their address database is wrong, there is a procedure for sending them a copy of your property tax bill showing which county you live in and getting it fixed so they can get you the 'correct' local channels. You may have to ask to talk to someone in Customer Loyalty. I saw one customer who had the wrong locals because his street name was spelled 'Pearce' rather than 'Pierce'. We got the CSR to correct the spelling and requalify the customer and they were surprised that the DMA changed! I have been doing Dish service work for 9 years and have learned a number of useful magic spells.

 

[dwarren2]

My locals are Rochester NY. With my ota antenna I get Syracuse NY. The guider is fully populated for both cities.
It did take a day or 2 for the Syracuse info to show up

 

[Nyth]

Hey TNGTony, where do you get your information about the local DMA's getting remapped every September? Is this AC Nielsen that is doing this? My understanding is that the boundaries as they exist were created in the 1950s predating zip codes which is why they follow county boundaries is most cases and often make no sense with which market people are closest to.

 

[bobvick]

Hey TNGTony, where do you get your information about the local DMA's getting remapped every September? Is this AC Nielsen that is doing this? My understanding is that the boundaries as they exist were created in the 1950s predating zip codes which is why they follow county boundaries is most cases and often make no sense with which market people are closest to.

Nope, they can change from year to year in certain fringe areas. They have changed ALOT since the 50's.

 

[Nyth]

You say they can change but where is your evidence that they change?

From Code of Federal Regulations, at 47 CFR § 76.5:

"(2) Effective January 1, 2000, a commercial broadcast television station's market, unless amended pursuant to §76.59, shall be defined as its Designated Market Area (DMA) as determined by Nielsen Media Research and published in its Nielsen Station Index Directory and Nielsen Station Index US Television Household Estimates or any successor publications."

I know that dishuser has older copies of the maps on their site at:

http://dishuser.org/TVMarkets/

But I do not know if they are very current. They state on their site also that "The TV Market borders change slightly every September" but I still have never seen a change in boundaries anywhere in Wisconsin at least. Can anyone show a 'Before' and 'after' map to show any changes that have occurred over the last 15 years?

My understanding is that when Nielsen drew up these boundaries, Zip codes did not exist yet and using the county lines was the most convenient way of divvying up the population for demographic profiling irrespective of what people were actually watching off of their TV antennas. That is why if you look at the map of Wisconsin, (http://dishuser.org/TVMarkets/Maps/wisconsin.gif) you see goofy situations like Juneau and Adams counties where satellite customers in southern Adams get Wausau locals and people living 40 miles further north in Juneau county get Madison locals. Totally nonsensical. Other weird situations are for example, Waupun, WI which straddles the County line between Dodge and Fond du Lac counties. Customers north of Main street get Green Bay locals and those south of Main street get Milwaukee. They all share the same Zip code though.

Here is the map for Ohio

http://dishuser.org/TVMarkets/Maps/ohio.gif

No question that if this is correct, you should have Lima, OH locals. Unless someone can show where there has been a change in the DMA boundaries which I very much doubt. I wonder if they have your Zip code wrong. Here is a good zip code map of Ohio:

http://www.aboutzipcode.com/statemaps/Ohio-zip-code-map.png

It is a little hard to tell, but from google maps it appears than small sections of the 54895 zip code south of highway 219 cross over into Shelby County, in which case those customers would be getting Dayton locals. Are you most definitely living within the boundaries of Auglaize county?

Irrespective of Auglaize perhaps changing DMAs (which I am skeptical about, and no one has provided any concrete evidence for despite offhand statements made above) your dish set up MAY be part of what is causing the problem. I just ran into a similar problem with with a customer losing his locals completely when the CSR removed the 110 orbital tag from his account. He has a 722k and a 1000.4 EA dish pointing at 61, 72, 77. They had to add the 110 code back to his account to get the locals to show up again which are on the 61 sat. This appeared to be a goofy artifact having to do with the WA to EA migration for the Madison WI, DMA and his account being about 12 years old.

 

[Nyth]

"Auglaize county constantly jumps back and forth between the two TV markets." Tony, can you provide any evidence backing up this statement? The Lima DMA only has three counties in it and knowing how fiercely protective the local stations are of "their" markets, I am very doubtful if they would let Auglaize county 'jump' to Dayton DMA and take the huge advertising revenue hit that would be for them.

The biggest problem I have seen with market confusion has more to do with the huge address database that Dish (and DirecTV) has to maintain, especially for those many many Zip codes that do cross DMA boundaries. It is a constant headache with the volume of address updates that are done every year. (New home construction, fixing errors, e.g.) This database must be able to pinpoint the customer's location by county since 99.9% of all DMA boundaries follow county lines and NOT the zip code boundaries. The zip code only determines the DMA when the customer provides a street address that does not find a match in their address database. I know this after installing over 3000 systems and seeing many weird things like a space placed incorrectly in a rural address in Walworth County, WI causing a customer's DMA flip from Green Bay, WI to Madison, WI.

This is the kind of crap you get when you let business (aka TV station) write legislation. It is very customer unfriendly. In my opinion, the customer should be allowed to chose between the two (or some cases three) nearest channel markets. Make the TV stations compete for those customers rather that having protected territories especially when those territory boundaries are so arbitrary and nonsensical anyway. Just my opinion.