TCM HD looks fuzzier than its SD counterpart
- Thread starter TNGTony
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Unfortunately, TCM HD will never be what some people expect. If not financially prohibitive, in many cases impossible for HD conversion...negatives long gone or in too bad of shape. I predict that at best, only 50% of the movies will ever be seen in true HD. The only way they can increase the percentage would be to drop films from the 30's and 40's and increase titles from the 60's and up. I personally hope they don't do that. I could imagine possibility that TCM HD would be a completely separate channel from the SD version.
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You're missing the point KAB... I don't expect every movie to look pristine. My point is that TCM HD now looks WORSE, not only a little worse, a LOT worse than the SD counterpart. So much so that it can be seen easily on pictures taken of the screen under identical conditions.
There are no takers so far on my "Identify the HD feed" challenge above.
There are no takers so far on my "Identify the HD feed" challenge above.
TNGTony, I agree with you on the SD looking better than the HD. It is interesting what Blackloz says below about the HD logo being on screen, it is not on mine. I wonder if Dish in their infinite wisdom are actually rebroadcasting the SD channel instead of the true HD channel.
I am doing a comparison right now, and the HD channel definitely looks better. Not leagues like it should be. But there is much more detail in the shots, less artifacts, and the colors are more accurate.
I agree, I think it does, too. I knew going in that TCM wasn't going HD yet, but it's nice to be under the tent once it does. I think they ought to shoot for some HD during primetime hours, and use the rest of the day for older, or non-HD-yet films. Interested to see how the newer movies this evening look.
You got to be joking if you think a 480i SD channel looks better than a 1080i HD channel. Even if the films are upconverted they still look much better than if they were on a SD channel. You can see much more compression on a SD channel and it is much softer.
A = HD
B = SD, Western Arc
In the B images I can see Dish's signature edge-enhancement (mangled details on all horizontal edges and over-emphasized edges on the limited details that are actually retained in the image), damaged color, and other problems.
Also, all of the A images are zoomed / cropped. I'll guess that's either one of the technical problems occasionally reported with TCM HD or that you were zooming it on your end. That's a 2.55:1 film, so even with it zoomed you're still seeing a bit of letterboxing and your DVR's OSD status/controls aren't completely covering the bottom of the image. Anyway, if they're upscaling an old SD transfer of a 2.55:1 film in a 4:3 frame for the HD channel, some of what you observe as a problem may have to do with this film being zoomed/cropped in this example.
The colors are not bad/worse on the HD channel, all of the Western Arc SD channels have had their color tampered with by Dish. You're pretty much dead-on with the 5% figure, but the case is that those Western Arc SD channels have their luma reduced by about 5% compared to Dish's Eastern Arc SD, DIRECTV's SD, TCM Canada SD, and TCM HD on Dish Network. I think you'll find that colors such as red, green, blue, and yellow are all dulled on your SD channels if you switch between SD and HD versions of any channels on Dish Network you receive both versions of, not just TCM.
I looked at some of the Anne Frank movie and made the SD vs. HD comparison to see if it looked like the HD version was in HD. The HD was much better than the SD. Also, the HD version was wide screen letter box, no cropping that I noticed (but if the sides were cropped, I probably wouldn't have noticed). The SD version was apparently cropped and zoomed. The HD channel has the HD header when you switch it on.
Being a TCM fan, I also watched the Harold Lloyd retrospective and the Robert Taylor/Jean Harlow film that followed. As I recall, these were all in 4/3 OAR, and all had excellent pictures with no fuzz, color tint, or anything else (all B/W). I haven't seen anything in color yet, maybe soon. I know the Ben Hur movie is in color.
I'm in the EA, so maybe there is some difference with WA with regard to the HD. I know there is a thread that does explore the SD difference between EA and WA. (Maybe buckchow handled that.)
Best regards,
Fitzie
Being a TCM fan, I also watched the Harold Lloyd retrospective and the Robert Taylor/Jean Harlow film that followed. As I recall, these were all in 4/3 OAR, and all had excellent pictures with no fuzz, color tint, or anything else (all B/W). I haven't seen anything in color yet, maybe soon. I know the Ben Hur movie is in color.
I'm in the EA, so maybe there is some difference with WA with regard to the HD. I know there is a thread that does explore the SD difference between EA and WA. (Maybe buckchow handled that.)
Best regards,
Fitzie
If they just keep doing what they are tonight, I'll be happy. Good upconverts on Thomas Crown and Grand Prix, no postage stamp presentation.
Nope... not zooming in. That is the "normal" setting on both.
Those that said the HD looks better have not said which picture look clearer to you. Also I have a question, Did you KNOW you were looking at the HD channel when you decided it was the better looking picture.
I'll answer when I get home from work in a couple of hours.
Those that said the HD looks better have not said which picture look clearer to you. Also I have a question, Did you KNOW you were looking at the HD channel when you decided it was the better looking picture.
I'll answer when I get home from work in a couple of hours.
Watching Gran Prix right now on a 722. HD on one tuner, SD on the other using the swap button to switch between the two. Although the HD is a bit softer than what I'd like - probably upconverted - it looks good. Definitely better than the SD feed with fewer artifacts and better detail. And kudos to TCM for presenting it in OAR.
Kudos for TCM HD to also not stretch there picture unlike the other turner networks. Lets hope that don't change when they finally air things in true HD.
Looking at a picture of a TV screen on a computer monitor is not the best way to evaluate the differences between HD and SD. It's kind of meaningless, but I'll play anyway.
I think you may be playing tricks on us.
HD = A1, B2, A3
SD = B1, A2, B3
I think you may be playing tricks on us.
HD = A1, B2, A3
SD = B1, A2, B3
The point is all things are equal with the pix taken under exact same conditions.
The answer is A was TCM HD. B was the SD
I am really trying to see how the folks who say they see TCM HD as a better picture come to that conclusion. I still say that those that do already know they are watching the HD channel and convince themselves they see improvement where there is none and in most cases, a fuzzier (softer) picture with skewed hues and boosted pedistal level washing out contrast. And in the example I showed, the HD channel did not have the OAR video.
So enjoy the new faux "HD" channel! I will watch the SD (real) version until TCM and/or Dish fix the crap they are feeding us at the moment.
See ya
Tony
The answer is A was TCM HD. B was the SD
I am really trying to see how the folks who say they see TCM HD as a better picture come to that conclusion. I still say that those that do already know they are watching the HD channel and convince themselves they see improvement where there is none and in most cases, a fuzzier (softer) picture with skewed hues and boosted pedistal level washing out contrast. And in the example I showed, the HD channel did not have the OAR video.
So enjoy the new faux "HD" channel! I will watch the SD (real) version until TCM and/or Dish fix the crap they are feeding us at the moment.
See ya
Tony
Agreed, after seeing so many films on TCM HD in the 4:3 aspect, finally, one film, I can't recall which, was in HD, but was presented much like some B&W films are aired on HDNET Movies: a zoom in to fill almost all the 16:9, but clearly HD and, yes some cropping, but overall much better presentation than anything I has observed on TCM HD since they were turned on for us on Dish.
I think the problem is a lot like when USA and other channels went HD: Yes, they are providing and HD feed, but far too much of the content isn't HD. Overtime, that will change and improve, just as it has on channels like Spike, USA, and others. Meanwhile, MTV HD still has about 98% of content in SD, even some of the brand-spankin' new episodes on tons of shows. So far, Real World and Gauntlet seem to be the only HD content on MTV HD.
My real bone is Logo, Centric, and another "Phoney" HD channel (all down at the 360's and over--at the Platinum level) that are really SD feeds, but Dish imbues them as HD. PLEASE!
