To the new resident Dish TSR's - Please do something to fix the loud audio on commercials.

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TheForce

TheForce

SatelliteGuys Master
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Oct 13, 2003
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Jacksonville, FL, Earth
Around here this is an old subject but for you new TSR's from Dish here to help, show us you are worth your paycheck and actually get a dialog going with your engineers and report the truth of what is being done about the extremely annoying loud volume on the commercial breaks.

Here's the deal - 2 years ago we observed an increasing practice of switching the audio meta data from a program in DD5.1 to DD2.0 when the program switched to the commercial breaks on channels cappable of DD5.1. When you do this, whether it is automatic or not, it creates an instant jump in sound volume of 10-12 db which can blow you out of your seat. We quickly scramble to the remote control and lower the volume or do my favorite practice, skip over the commercials. If we lowered the volume to normal comfort levels, then when the program returns ( in DD5.1 ) the sound is so low we can't hear it.

My first question is this- If we have a DD5.1 capable sound system and you are transmitting DD5.1 normally, why do you switch the meta to DD2.0 for the commercials? Most of the volume jump would be resolved if the meta could remain at DD5.1 which is what the program is broadcast at. When the commercial break begins, by not switching to DD2.0 automatically, the loss of audio in those channels for a normal commercial with only left and right channels would not be noticed except by the most esoteric audiophile and I would be willing to bet those audiophiles won't care about losing sound in the rear surrounds for a commercial about Magic Jack or Dish Network for that matter.

A second solution is not one that will bode well with programmers and sales departments but would also resolve 90% of the problem commercials. The suggestion is to institute a policy that NO commercials other than DD5.1 be permitted on a channel that is normally broadcasting in DD5.1. This would force TV programmers to upgrade their production practices to generate DD5.1 audio for all their commercials if they wish to be seen and heard on TV channels that are standard Operating procedure with DD5.1.

While the remaining issues with varying volume levels and loudness ( yes, I do know the difference ) would not be resolved by the above it is believed that most of the complaints about your hugely annoying volume jumps from program to commercials would be eliminated.

Now, about loudness differences. In most cases varying loudness due to audio compression and level limiting methods do not represent much of a difference and are indeed difficult if not impossible to regulate. I understand this. According to my sources at Dolby, they do have a solution to resolving this but it is an added significant cost to MSO operation. The issue is not regulated by the FCC and I can't expect Dish to voluntarily go to this expense, especially when auto volume leveling hardware is not considered to be the root cause of the annoying problem.

January a year ago I was promised by an engineer at Echostar in a face to face meeting on this issue that Echostar understood the problem and had a solution they were working on. He said it was a software they were testing and would be implemented in a firmware update that would fix the problem. Indeed later this past year you did add a feature in your firmware that allowed us to address the volume problem with a menu selection to turn it on or off. Well, I've got news for you. It doesn't work. I have repeatedly tested it with VU metering and there is absolutely no difference on or off. You, Dish Network were sold a scam so you should sue for a refund from the company you purchased that software from.

Please also note that this problem does not occur on a channel that is DD2.0 only. It only happens when a channel is normally DD5.1 for program and you switch to DD2.0 for commercials.


Please respond with what course of action you plan to do, or are able to do, and any response from Echostar / DishNetwork engineering on this. I will be also plan to meet with your engineers at CES next week on this issue.




Additional notes for your engineers on Dolby encoders op practice. It is my understanding that there are settings on the encoders used at Dish Network that permit a variety of pass through functions. Your engineers should consult with Dolby to learn how these can be implemented. The proper settings should be where the DD5.1 is locked on and the DD2.0 allowed to pass through for backward compatibility with viewers DD2.0 only equipment. I believe your equipment is set to auto switch the transmitted meta data based on program source which can generate the volume jump in DD5.1 receivers because it will auto switch.
 
It is expected that you would observe no difference if you are to use VU as a measurement. In fact, the "louder" audio may have a LOWER VU reading. The nature of audio compression is that it is a "perceived" difference in loudness. In other words, compressed audio showing a low VU can actually sound LOUDER than the less compressed audio with higher VU observed. This perception of loudness by our ears is do to the lack of dynamic range, so using VU as a measurement to judge if audio is "louder," which is determined by our ears, won't necessarily bring you to a proper conclusion. It's amazing how much electronic audio is psychoacoustic and subjective even with all the instruments and measurement technology at our disposal, and audio and video techs still use their ears and eyes as the final arbiter of what they are trying to achieve.

I, for one, have perceived a significant difference with the new audio leveling feature rolled out a few months ago. Yes, indeed, it does, to my ears, prevent the huge ear splitting difference between the SD and HD channels. However, it also introduced other, unacceptable artifacts such that I have turned it off and my relatives also complained about how the sound from their boxes sounds all "messed up" and they didn't like it and described "artifacts" (my use of the word) and it was playing havoc with their AV receiver. They had no clue that Dish had added the new software and that it was defaulted to ON. I had to go over to their house and shut it off, and they were plenty thankful and preferred the huge difference in loudness between SD and HD channels, which they still didn't like, to the terrible experience of the new audio software. There may be some folks who prefer the new software, so I am happy for them. At least we were given the option to turn it off.

Several other points in your post demonstrate a misunderstanding or make presumptions that are inaccurate (MVPD's are forbidden, but law to alter local broadcasts they retransmit. Further, MVPD's may be bound by contract as part of the agreement with a "cable" channel to the most minimum of alteration of video or audio in its RETRANSMISSION, but not necessarily at the point where the subscriber controls audio processing).

Please, don't be offended. I am pleased that you did post those thoughts here as it gives others on this board the opportunity to respond with explanations that are far too numerous for me to attempt here. Just keep checking back to the thread you started and the many smart people on this board will be happy to broaden everyone's knowledge on this subject. There really are few stupid questions, and your is certainly NOT. Thanks, for this will benefit all.
 
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DishSubLA:
Thanks for your response. Unfortunately, what I feared was emphasized in your response. You missed the main issue and addressed something entirely different. I even addressed the issue of compressed audio loudness and stated this was NOT the main problem. In addition, I never mentioned a volume difference between different channels, nor the difference in sound level between HD and SD. I haven't even tested this here. In fact, I don't find channel differences objectionable. I was quite specific in explaining there was a volume level difference when the program goes to commercial break and the audio meta data switches the Dolby from DD5.1 in the program to DD 2.0. Not only does the discussion of psychoacoustic affects and compression have nothing to do with meta data switch the mention of compression serves only to confuse the main point I made. Additionally, this problem has nothing to do with the video HD and Video SD.

I do agree with your point about the firmware upgrade and accept that with your equipment it has caused artifacts in contrast to my equipment where there was no observable difference. This is a normal result of tinkering with the additive affects of audio compression upstream of a secondary audio processing in a receiver. The approach to doing it this way, unfortunately can generate pumping of the audio which you directly interpreted as undesirable artifacts. I had mentioned this possibility to Echostar engineer over a year ago and that I felt the upstream approach would not work. Not only because it doesn't address the root cause of the problem of volume level differences between Dolby 5.1 and Dolby 2.0 but also has no way to predict the processing at the receiving end. This is exactly why people are observing different results with the selection.

Now, back to the root cause which is what I wanted to address in this thread. I also agree with you that there may be some contractural issues with program providers I am not aware of. This would prevent Dish from yanking commercial spots after the fact. The suggestion I made on restrictions of only permitting DD 5.1 commercials on a channel designated for DD 5.1 would have to be contract compliant and need to be considered in future contracts. This is a legal issue, not a technical one. The simple solution, is to lock the audio in the encoder to prevent auto switching based on program source meta. This is the solution Dolby recommends and admits many of the broadcasters are not using it.

FYI- I run my sound system for all sources using the audio processing from upstream only. I add no additional DSP at this end and run the amplifiers in laboratory pass through standard. I use a full channel meta data monitor so I can detect which discrete audio channels are active in the signal. In other words, what dish sends to my sat receiver is what I hear. I do not color the audio at all here.
 
Don-

Some questions... are you sure it is Dish Network inserting the commercials and not the channel itself? I know one of the locals channels used to use 5.1 for network programming, but had 2.0 for all local content (commercial inserts during network programming included). They have since put in a device that "passes" the 5.1, "upconverts" the 2.0 to 5.1 AND runs limiting. The amount of drastic audio changes (from switching between 5.1 & 2.0 sources or just different levels on content) has all but been eliminated. So now all the viewers "hear" is just 5.1.
 
sam_gordon said:
Don-

Some questions... are you sure it is Dish Network inserting the commercials and not the channel itself? I know one of the locals channels used to use 5.1 for network programming, but had 2.0 for all local content (commercial inserts during network programming included). They have since put in a device that "passes" the 5.1, "upconverts" the 2.0 to 5.1 AND runs limiting. The amount of drastic audio changes (from switching between 5.1 & 2.0 sources or just different levels on content) has all but been eliminated. So now all the viewers "hear" is just 5.1.
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Doesn't matter whether Dish does the commercial insertion or it is done at the source network. The problem solution is how the meta data is outbound.

YES! your local station has it right, now. This can be done at any decoding / encoding process like Dish, Comcast, DirecTV etc. It doesn't have to be implemented at the source. Your local figured it out and made the correct (Dolby recommended ) adjustment. Dolby says this is all in the setup so it shouldn't require additional equipment. The ability to compensate for different compression levels does require additional equipment purchases, but as I already repeated, this is not the root cause.

So now all the viewers "hear" is just 5.1.
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It should be noted that this upconvert as you called it does not hinder any DD2.0 receiving equipment from reading the signal and working in DD2.0 mode. Just that those with DD5.1 receiving equipment will not experience the switch and will not suffer the volume differences.

Thanks for offering your example here.
 
This will be straighted out as a law was passed to do this. The upconvert from 2.0 to 5.1 is just one way to do this. I am retired now, but have complained at the places I work, that it is like a vacumn when using a 5.1 sound system at home and the show audio drops to 2.0 when they switch from HD to SD for school closings. I do know that is changing in 2011, but that audio change in itself is deadening.
 
DISH was already working on something for this last I heard. Regardless, insulting the very people you want to help you, not a very smart way to start out a post. And more importantly, it's also beyond their ability. At best, they could shoot off an e-mail and pray.
 
Wanted to chime in here (as to DISH TSRs is hard to miss, LOL). We do have something coming down the software pipeline. We do not control the volume of the commercials, nor necessarily the change in volume between HD and SD channels. We do have a solution in the works that has already been sent to some boxes called Volume Leveling. It is found on some 722k's (and maybe a few other boxes) in the Audio Options (which was previously titled Dolby Digital). It is still in the works, but feedback from you guys on how well it works would be AWESOME! Holler if its on your box and let me know! BTW, DishSubLA, your feedback is EXACTLY what I had in mind as far as the "unacceptable artifacts". To be sure, I am aware of the tech, but never thought fully on the issue between 5.1/2.0 stereo making the audio changes so dramatic. Glad to have people like you that can point out what I apparently overlooked in all this (I overlook the obvious sometimes). I personally have direct access to our engineers and can certainly pump the information to them. Furthermore, for those of you with newer (relatively speaking) higher end TVs and surround sound setups (not necessarily higher dollar), night mode may be a good help, as it was also designed to keep from "blasting people outta their chairs" when the commercials roll through.
 
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I don't think the issue is 5.1 vs 2.0, but rather what is set for the 'dialnorm' metadata parameter. This parameter establishes the dialog level relative to max level (0 dBFS) and provides the program author of a way to control headroom. The trouble is that dialnorm can be improperly set so that program content is reproduced too loud or too soft. Besides the enormous amount of compression and limiting applied to commercials to boost the overall level of their audio content, they can set dialnorm to further increase reproduction levels. The other issue is that if dialnorm is not included, a default is applied. It's likely this default won't match the accompanying program. The third issue is that PCM 2-channel audio has no medadata and therefore no dialnorm. Since dialnorm will reduce gain in the AV receiver's processing chain, PCM audio will always be reproduced at a higher level than Dolby Digital (5.1 or 2.0) IF dialnorm is present.

In the relatively controlled environment of movie sound creation, we can expect dialnorm to be set reasonably accurately. Unfortunately, dialnorm is set by a human and perception is a factor in deciding what dialog level should be. I do notice differences in dialog level between movies. A controlled environment in which to monitor audio content AND calibrated monitors AND a dialog reference are required to determine a dialnorm value. Most television stations and many other content integrators don't have the necessary facilities.

Equipment is available to automatically author dialnorm. I have not investigated it but suspect that it would lag significantly behind transitions in the program stream (a switch to commercial) and suffer from the artifacts previously mentioned regarding the Dish Network's Volume Leveling.
 
Well to my untrained ear the volume leveling on my 922 seems to work as stated. with my old 722 i was always doing the remote volume shuffle, up/down between comercials or even just in the middle of programs. i do turn the feature off when i am watching a movie on HBO or the like so that i can get the loud crashes, explosions and stuff. my setup isn't the best so maybe if i had a better system i could tell these differences. but for me and my 5.1 surround system it seems to work fine. i hardly touch the volume now with the volume leveling.

i was watching at my fathers house the other day on his 722 and about blew a speaker. he is hard of hearing anyway so it is usually loud but he changed the channel to a SD channel from HD and i thought his speakers were gone for sure. he even thought it was way too loud.
 
Don`t qoute me on this but I read or heard of that the FCC is or will be,addressing this issue inthe form of some new regulation.
 
The volume leveling on my 922 works pretty good for the most part but there are still a few commercials that are loud. Especially the HughesNet commercials. They always have me scrambling for the remote.
 
joekawasaki said:
The volume leveling on my 922 works pretty good for the most part but there are still a few commercials that are loud. Especially the HughesNet commercials. They always have me scrambling for the remote.
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Couldn't explain why, but I had a laugh about that. Does she live out in the country where high-speed data has been previously unavailable (that's the one that gets me on the Easter Egg Hunt for the remote).
 
ralfyguy said:
My 722 has NO sound leveling feature.
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As of right now, the software update has only been released to certain boxes (I believe only 722k within a certain number range, but could be wrong) until they have it 100%. Then it will go to more and more as time progresses. They don't want to have a mass release and a bunch of boxes go Hari Kari style. (spelling on that?)
 
dfergie said:
Btw, after Don reads & replys tonight I could change the name of this thread to something like "Ask the Dish TSR's" or someone start a new thread... : )
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OK, I'm lost at this point. Why is it you need to change the title to my thread question about the loud audio on DD2.0 commercials?


Anthony- Thanks for seeing this thread and posting here but I don't believe you addressed the question about volume on the commercials.

1. Did you understand the question?
2. While I did state that I was in communication with your Echostar company engineer on the issue, the solution was not satisfactory and wanted you to address the continued complaints through your channels of people in a position to fix it. Not sure if you did anything but could you?
3. If you will be at CES, Dish Booth, I would be happy to meet with you or your representative to discuss progress to this in person.
 
UnSat said:
Heres something on the matter.

Congress moves to stop loud TV ads | WBRZ News 2 Louisiana : Baton Rouge, LA |
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Actually, because of deregulation, the FCC stopped regulating audio on all broadcast TV, leaving it up to industry standards, which there are none, only good practice which has gone the way of professional engineers running things. So, this is why Congress had to act but in typical Congressional fashion, this is what we have as quoted from the AP press release:

Relief from excessive commercial noise would occur a year after the FCC crafts the new regulations, and apply to all broadcast providers, including cable and satellite.
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Translated to human speak, this means that as soon as the FCC gets off their butts and develops a standard, it will go into enforcement a year later. In real time how soon will that be? Hard to tell but we all could be long dead before anything really gets done. Sorry for being so cynical but I'm not concerned about DirecTV, or local TV stations on this issue, or a long to implement law from Congress. I'm only interested in what Dish Network will do now, because Dish is my service provider that I pay for and this is the Dish Network section to ask.
 

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