Voom's PQ vs. HDNet Movies

wasch_24

wasch_24

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I'm pretty sure that Voom is scrambling and working as fast as possible to stop compressing their broadcasts. Otherwise they wouldn't even be trying to figure out how to implement WM9 or the lastest/greatest MPEG technology. If the additional satellite and dish upgrade actually pans out, we may not even need to worry about new compression schemes. Voom has stated that they will have the capacity for like 96 HD channels when that occurs. Even if they give us some HD on demand (PPV) there is not enough content or providers out there to create 96 channels so hopefully we will have something like 50 quality full bandwidth channels. Some where on this forum I think Vurbano has already laid it out how they could do this. Luckily for me Voom is my only source for HD, ignnorance is bliss. I think this goes for a lot of the people that continue to think Voom's PQ is outstanding. Voom is definitely the best PQ in my HT.
 
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barth2k

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Sean, let's be fair. Last week, you compared a soccer on hdnet vs one on worldsports and said you didn't see much difference. You took this as indication of, well, SOMETHING. Now conjuror is picking a movie on hdnet at random and comparing it to TEN movies on voom and says that nothing on voom is quite as good. But you say well that means nothing.

Look at it this way. Say you go to one classroom A and pick out one kid at random. Then go to room B and pick out 10 kids at random. The kid in A beats the 10 kids in B at some test. The next day, you do the same thing again and again the lone random kid in A beats all 10 random kids in B. Now sure that's not scientifically conclusive. Maybe you just got lucky and picked a good student in A and picked all lousy students from B. But it's telling isn't it?
 
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agregjones

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Jun 25, 2004
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Conjuror said:
In fact, I remember you saying few times on other topics that there is nothing like HDNet. I highly doubt you needed to watch same two shows to figure that out. And I think you'll agree that HDNet is superior to any Voom's HD channel.

That is what we should talk about here. High compression (Voom has it) is like a cancer - if you don't cut it of in its early stage it'll spread eventually everywhere. That is my worry about Voom - they are intentionally not matching PQ to HDNet just to be able to give us more channels. If that thinking spreads on other DBS providers then the HD revolution will disappear in 5-6 years.

I don't hate Voom. I will be Vooming until there is no better choice. However, all of us who are driving force on the DBS market, should demand the highest possible HD PQ everywhere. If we don't, they will use more and more compression for as long as we are not bitching about it. Therefore, I believe it is critical to complain now, in HD early stage, to force DBS providers to look after better compression techniques to give us more channels, not just to squeeze existing ones in order to make more room for new ones.

You are missing Sean's point, I think. A film transfer of poorer quality will always look worse than one of higher quality. HDNet is looking better, in large part, due to its higher concentration of good source or transferred material. It all comes down to a question of programming.

Taking a high quality picture of a Yugo won't make it look like a Ferrari.
 
DarrellP

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Also "A Chorus Line" is currently playing on HDNET Movies and has been on Voom, so keep an eye out for them. I wish they would play at the same time one of these evenings so I could do a direct comparison.

Another movie that HDNET Movies won hands down was "The Music Man". HDNET was OAR plus the transfer was much cleaner, more colorful and very crisp.

Sean, do you know if both providers obtain their HD stock from the same source?
 
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Sean Mota

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barth2k said:
Sean, let's be fair. Last week, you compared a soccer on hdnet vs one on worldsports and said you didn't see much difference. You took this as indication of, well, SOMETHING. Now conjuror is picking a movie on hdnet at random and comparing it to TEN movies on voom and says that nothing on voom is quite as good. But you say well that means nothing.

Look at it this way. Say you go to one classroom A and pick out one kid at random. Then go to room B and pick out 10 kids at random. The kid in A beats the 10 kids in B at some test. The next day, you do the same thing again and again the lone random kid in A beats all 10 random kids in B. Now sure that's not scientifically conclusive. Maybe you just got lucky and picked a good student in A and picked all lousy students from B. But it's telling isn't it?

The production of Live Soccer games on both HDnet and WorldSport is HD Video. That's a good comparison for PQ. Yes, each production team has different ways of producing the game but for the most part it is HD video for both.

The comparison of HD Transfers from film is not the same (if the HD Transfer are not the same). HD Transfers films vary from one to another. This is because the master from where the HD Transfer came is subject to storage condition, grainy, and temperature changes. So not all HD transfers are created equal and this why if you want to make a fair comparison (even of 10 different films), look at the same transfer on both.

Why is it so hard to watch the "The Woman in Red" which has been shown in both with the same aspect ratio? When you watch them both comeback and make a report and complain all you want.
 
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Sean Mota

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DarrellP said:
Also "A Chorus Line" is currently playing on HDNET Movies and has been on Voom, so keep an eye out for them. I wish they would play at the same time one of these evenings so I could do a direct comparison.

Another movie that HDNET Movies won hands down was "The Music Man". HDNET was OAR plus the transfer was much cleaner, more colorful and very crisp.

Sean, do you know if both providers obtain their HD stock from the same source?

A chorus line is on OAR and on HD Cinema was not. As we all know OAR has a better resolution than a non-oar transfer that blown up on the screen.

Don't know about who provides their HD transfers. It may come from different, sources (internal or external).
 
C

Conjuror

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wasch_24 said:
I'm pretty sure that Voom is scrambling and working as fast as possible to stop compressing their broadcasts. Otherwise they wouldn't even be trying to figure out how to implement WM9 or the lastest/greatest MPEG technology. If the additional satellite and dish upgrade actually pans out, we may not even need to worry about new compression schemes. Voom has stated that they will have the capacity for like 96 HD channels when that occurs. Even if they give us some HD on demand (PPV) there is not enough content or providers out there to create 96 channels so hopefully we will have something like 50 quality full bandwidth channels. Some where on this forum I think Vurbano has already laid it out how they could do this. Luckily for me Voom is my only source for HD, ignnorance is bliss. I think this goes for a lot of the people that continue to think Voom's PQ is outstanding. Voom is definitely the best PQ in my HT.

When I hear that oficially from Voom, I'll stop complaining. I can wait untill they they get it right. However, they just say they will add more HD channels but they say nothing about giving better bit rates to the existing ones.

barth2k said:
Sean, let's be fair. Last week, you compared a soccer on hdnet vs one on worldsports and said you didn't see much difference. You took this as indication of, well, SOMETHING. Now conjuror is picking a movie on hdnet at random and comparing it to TEN movies on voom and says that nothing on voom is quite as good. But you say well that means nothing.

Whaaat???? I am a soccer maniac and I watch almost every game on both HDNet and WorldSport and the difference is huge!!!! Never, ever, any soccer game on Voom looked nearly as good as one on HDNet! When I watch the game on HDNet it is really like being there. Watching it on Voom is just TV-like watching experience. Soccer games on Voom are one of main reasons why I ordered Voom. I wanted to have realistic soccer experience just like on HDNet but with much better soccer teams. I was so excited about it and couldn't wait to get Voom! 123 was the first channel I ever watched on Voom and immediately after I saw it I said to myself "Oh, no. That's not it". And still that is not it.
 
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slffl

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Nov 18, 2003
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I'm currently also comparing V* and D* side-by-side. Right now I give all movies on HDNET a 10 for the simple fact that they are OAR! I give any non-OAR V* movie a 1.

I'd take DVD OAR over HD chop-shop anyday.

P.S. I've compared DCHD side-by-side and would give the slight edge in PQ to D* using the HD-TIVO and component output on both.
 
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Sean Mota

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Conjuror said:
Sean man, let me correct you once again. We are not talking about subtracting and adding apples and oranges in kindergarten, it is not that simple. What we are talking about here is a taste. Can you not tell which one is sweeter? Sure you can. It's the same with PQ. You don't have to watch the same show to tell which picture is better, you just know it.

If this the method you are using to determine PQ, I am sure anyone who has done comparison of providers will laugh at such method. Go to AVSforum and ask the same question and anybody will tell you the same. You are not even close.

Conjuror said:
For example, look on the Horrible PQ on tennis channel thread. All of you agreed that it looks worse than other channels but no one, including you, bothered to say "well, we can't compare apple and oranges, we have to watch the same show to say which one is better". Why? Because all of you simply know that the tennis channel is not as good as other channels and you don't have to watch the same show for that.

I have never denied that this channels - the Tennis Channel - did not look poor. I have confirmed the same. This one is so obvious as it is the sparks on other SD channels that you need no comparison. But if I was asked about HBO-SD on VOOM and HBO-SD on Dish, I would have to look at both sources with the same programming and at the same time because the differences may not be so obvious.

Conjuror said:
In fact, I remember you saying few times on other topics that there is nothing like HDNet. I highly doubt you needed to watch same two shows to figure that out. And I think you'll agree that HDNet is superior to any Voom's HD channel.

HDnet is not even superior to any Voom's HD channel in PQ but is even superior to Discover HD (on E* or D*), ESPN-HD (E* or D), HBO-HD (E* or D*), Show-HD (E* or D*). So what's the point? This is something that we know from the beginning. Do you want every single channel on VOOM to look like HDnet? You'll be waiting for a long time. Maybe you should bother Dish Network and DirecTv as well and please ask them to make ESPN-HD, HBO-HD, Show-HD, & Discovery-HD like HDnet as well.

Conjuror said:
That is what we should talk about here. High compression (Voom has it) is like a cancer - if you don't cut it of in its early stage it'll spread eventually everywhere. That is my worry about Voom - they are intentionally not matching PQ to HDNet just to be able to give us more channels. If that thinking spreads on other DBS providers then the HD revolution will disappear in 5-6 years.

Please ask Dish and DirecTv and my OTA HD channels affiliates to all look like HDnet because I agree with you everything in HD is a compression cancer when compare to HDnet.

Conjuror said:
I don't hate Voom. I will be Vooming until there is no better choice. However, all of us who are driving force on the DBS market, should demand the highest possible HD PQ everywhere. If we don't, they will use more and more compression for as long as we are not bitching about it. Therefore, I believe it is critical to complain now, in HD early stage, to force DBS providers to look after better compression techniques to give us more channels, not just to squeeze existing ones in order to make more room for new ones.

As I said before, you should become an advocate Not only for VOOM but please by all means ask dish to make Discovery HD, TNT-HD, Show-HD, HBO-HD, the same as HDnet. Not maybe you should ask them better to increase the mbps on every HD channel to the level of HDnet. I am sure they will get a good laugh about that.
 
wasch_24

wasch_24

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Conjuror,
I think that the fact that you continually start posts reiterating the same point over and over again is what is ruffling feathers around here. You have been pointing out Voom's PQ deficiencies from the onset (very first post). We get it... in your opinion Voom's PQ is bad. Repetition is a key to learning but does absolutely nothing to help you try to convince others. In actuality it detracts from your validity.
 
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Sean Mota

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slffl said:
I'm currently also comparing V* and D* side-by-side. Right now I give all movies on HDNET a 10 for the simple fact that they are OAR! I give any non-OAR V* movie a 1.

I'd take DVD OAR over HD chop-shop anyday.

P.S. I've compared DCHD side-by-side and would give the slight edge in PQ to D* using the HD-TIVO and component output on both.

I completly agree with you. The fact that HDnet movies and HDnet uses OAR to show their HD Transfers is a big plus. I would love to have every single movie in HD Cinema on OAR. This is what I have been pushing since day one and finally was contacted by the director for HD Cinema and I got an emailed from him that stated that he was going to push this matter further because he agrees that movies should not be cropped and should be shown OAR. I am only hoping that we get this policy change soon.
 
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Conjuror

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Sean Mota said:
HDnet is not even superior to any Voom's HD channel in PQ but is even superior to Discover HD (on E* or D*), ESPN-HD (E* or D), HBO-HD (E* or D*), Show-HD (E* or D*). So what's the point? This is something that we know from the beginning. Do you want every single channel on VOOM to look like HDnet? You'll be waiting for a long time. Maybe you should bother Dish Network and DirecTv as well and please ask them to make ESPN-HD, HBO-HD, Show-HD, & Discovery-HD like HDnet as well.

Yes, I do want every single Voom HD channel look as HDNet. If they currently don't have enough bandwidth to do so then Voom should drop 4-5 of its exclusive channels which should be good enough to give them more room to significantly increase PQ on the other few channels. Even if that would not be good enough to increase PQ on the HDNet level, I'm sure that they can do it for about 5-6 Voom's best channels: HDEquator, Monsters, Rush, WorldSport, and a couple of cinemas. Why they wouldn't consider this option? Do you know? This would make happy a lot of folks, including me.

Plus, new compression technology will give them enough room to make every channel they have now to look like HDNet unless they want to add more moov-like channels. Dude, if we accept what they offer, they will not increase PQ. It is cheaper for them to keep adding new channels by squeezing current ones. Therefore they will not invest money to apply new compression techniques unless we push them hard.

Why don't I complain to Dish and DirecTV about it? Because I want Voom to succeed and be a true HD leader in both PQ and number of HD channels. Something just tells me that is the only way for Voom to become #1.
Take a look on Dish, man. They are so loaded with crappy SD channels that they don't even have enough room to send Charlie's fart via satellite anymore. I guess it's the same with DirecTV.
 
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Sean Mota

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Conjuror said:
Yes, I do want every single Voom HD channel look as HDNet. If they currently don't have enough bandwidth to do so then Voom should drop 4-5 of its exclusive channels which should be good enough to give them more room to significantly increase PQ on the other few channels. Even if that would not be good enough to increase PQ on the HDNet level, I'm sure that they can do it for about 5-6 Voom's best channels: HDEquator, Monsters, Rush, WorldSport, and a couple of cinemas. Why they wouldn't consider this option? Do you know? This would make happy a lot of folks, including me.

Plus, new compression technology will give them enough room to make every channel they have now to look like HDNet unless they want to add more moov-like channels. Dude, if we accept what they offer, they will not increase PQ. It is cheaper for them to keep adding new channels by squeezing current ones. Therefore they will not invest money to apply new compression techniques unless we push them hard.

Why don't I complain to Dish and DirecTV about it? Because I want Voom to succeed and be a true HD leader in both PQ and number of HD channels. Something just tells me that is the only way for Voom to become #1.
Take a look on Dish, man. They are so loaded with crappy SD channels that they don't even have enough room to send Charlie's fart via satellite anymore. I guess it's the same with DirecTV.


Now, I see where you come from. Conjuror, I completely agree with you I want all my HD channels to look like HDnet but that will not happen. It is not realistic for VOOM or any provider to do that. Dish or DirecTv or Cable for that matter will not comply with my wish and your wish. You can yell all you want (and I will help you to yell) but it won't happen.

At least the smoke is clear now and we understand where you are coming from. But understand that looking like HDnet is not the same as saying PQ on VOOM sucks. I think that when you talk about PQ, you want to make sure that others understand what standard you are using. Your standard in this case and (all cases) is HDnet. Is that correct?
 
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Conjuror

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Yes, it is. Don't you think that mpeg4 or wm9 should give them enough extra bandwidth to have 20 HD channels with HDNet quality? What about dropping moov and few other channels now and make EquatorHD, Monsters, WorldSport, and few others stunning? Why they wouldn't do that?
 
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Sean Mota

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Conjuror said:
Yes, it is. Don't you think that mpeg4 or wm9 should give them enough extra bandwidth to have 20 HD channels with HDNet quality? What about dropping moov and few other channels now and make EquatorHD, Monsters, WorldSport, and few others stunning? Why they wouldn't do that?

With MPEG4 or WM9 it is possible to do that but I do not know if they will. That remains to be seen. Right now and this is just my opinion, they are not about to drop any of their channels (including moov). From their business point of view, it will not make sense. From our point of view of looking at quality (compare to HDnet), it makes perfect sense but not to them. They have a business model which they will not deviate from unless it means drastic changes.
 
G

gutter

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I think it is a bit odd that OTA HD is superior and we don't pay for it and cable or direct TV compress the hell out of the picture and we to set there and accept it and shell out the money month after month. I think the whole point of HD should be the highest PQ content possible. Hell I would watch a test pattern for half an hour if it was in HD. By the way, can't we get some time on MOOV to run an HD test pattern so we can tweak our sets to VOOM? VOOM sets it self up as the HD leader and that should imply PQ as well. Nothing less. It is what they talk about break after break after break. Also they talk about OAR and they don't do it. I notice some movies are now. I hope this continues but don't advertise something that you can't deliver.

People with HD at this time are not like regular TV viewers. We invested early to get the quality. I have put back up my SAMMY OTA receiver for my local HD channels. What a difference. I don't think the entire problem is just the compression but also the damn Motorola box. A truly inferior product. Motorola didn't learn anything when they took over General Instruments and they should have.
 
DarrellP

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Voom is soooo close to having excellent PQ it's disheartening. Just 3mbps/channel more and we could be OOOOHing and AWWWWWWing at every HD channel. I hope with WM9 they address this issue first then think about adding more channels.

Does anyone know if HD/SD can be shared on a transponder? I've read previously that E* can't do that, is it due to the 8psk stream? If so, when Voom goes WM9, then all channels will be WM9 and they should be able to mix & match, right? Wrong? Anyone know? Anyone Care? I do.
 
vurbano

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DarrellP said:
Voom is soooo close to having excellent PQ it's disheartening. Just 3mbps/channel more and we could be OOOOHing and AWWWWWWing at every HD channel. I hope with WM9 they address this issue first then think about adding more channels.
I agree Darrel! ANd if Seans posts are right, that better PQ is not in Vooms business plan, then when D* has 37-21 = 16 HD channels I and I think many others wont be in Vooms business plan either. Once D* has the mainstream HD channels, without superior PQ there is no reason to stick around :mad:

Im not just talking, if Wm9 does not improve the picture ..see ya. Voom exclusives will NOT keep voom alive IMO. Who was the genuis that decided on 12 mbps avg? They could look incredible at 14-15 mbps. Its really sad
 
vurbano

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Sean Mota said:
Now, I see where you come from. Conjuror, I completely agree with you I want all my HD channels to look like HDnet but that will not happen. It is not realistic for VOOM or any provider to do that. Dish or DirecTv or Cable for that matter will not comply with my wish and your wish. You can yell all you want (and I will help you to yell) but it won't happen.

At least the smoke is clear now and we understand where you are coming from. But understand that looking like HDnet is not the same as saying PQ on VOOM sucks. I think that when you talk about PQ, you want to make sure that others understand what standard you are using. Your standard in this case and (all cases) is HDnet. Is that correct?
My standard is HDNET, CBSHD OTA, ABC HD OTA, NBCHD OTA, UPNHD OTA, upcoming foxhd OTA. ANd guess what? Voom cannot match the PQ of any of them. They must improve. Lets not dismiss Conjuror to quickly on this. I dont know about you exactly but I am sure when you bought your HD sets you didnt buy them to watch an average HD picture. If a service like D* can come up with everything but the Voom exclusives and offer a higher bitrate you would stay?
 

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