What do you think of the Programmers at DISH?

[ken]

Since the last software update last week on my 721 I have had nothing but problems. Half of my event timers have failed and 25% of the rest have caused my 721 to freeze up and crash the receiver. Every time those %#$%$#% programmers at E* do an upgrade (I should call it a downgrade) it takes a month to get back to what would be called normal for the 721. Am I the only one that thinks Charlie should fire the lot of them and start over ?

 

[OoTLink]

I think the programmers at dish rawk. Seriously.

http://www.talesmud.com/comcastvsdish.jpg

You don't know how good you have it until you've seen the other crap out there.

Things the Comcast box didn't have:
Favorites lists that you can use as channel surf/guide lists
Channel hiding
PPV hiding
Video preview on the menu system
Svideo output (only on the HD/DVR boxes)
A translucent channel surf bar (nor a nice one at that)
A translucent channel guide (nor a nice one at that either)
Guide info cache (if you changed channels too fast the "flip bar" went blank -- essentially too fast was before the picture for each channel showed up)
Scheduled update times
UHF remotes even as an option

Things the Dish boxes don't have in comparison:
On Demand
Choice of menu colors
SLOW guide/channel surfing. These things make dish's early UI look good in comparison.


Oh yes, and what I'm talking about is the "new iGuide" -- which some comcast customers are so convinced is "best in class"

:haha

I should also say the *single tuner SD non-DVR box* they issued me for $5 a month was a filthy used box that's twice as big as my dual tuner 322s are!

When I complained they told me to go to the local office, so I did, hoping to at least get a DCT2500 -- which they didn't allow, and the $9/month DVR which they showed by pulling one off the shelf.. well... I felt like I was dealing stolen equipment off the back of a van.

Sorry, I just have a really disgusting taste in my mouth from that company.

Err, back to the topic -- your 721 is like the 921, you'd probably have been better off with a 522/625 in single mode. Sorry to hear about the bugginess though, but I really have to say in a way it's worth it lol.

 

[Big Bob]

How about another option for this poll?
something like:
I am only an end user and have no idea how software is developed or just how complicated it can be or how E* has their development teams set up and what kind of pressure the programmers are under or how much of their work is left unfinished because of unreasonable upper management demands and I have never actually seen a "beta" release but I use the term all the time even though I don't really understand it but I am sure that it is the "programmers" fault for anything that I don't like happens.


This poll is totally ridiculous and should be removed.

 

[OoTLink]

No need to be that harsh man.

As far as I know, all the recent dish boxes use linux, which is pretty awesome on its own. Admittedly, you don't hear about it much (dish only admitted it for the 721), but that seems to be the case...

And even if it isn't, the OS they use is a pretty damn nice one. It looks better than what motorola/comcast use for sure, not to mention a few other companies out there. Granted that, it's not perfect, and in a way it's a little disgusting when bugs happen (lately my downstairs 322 will freeze in the middle of a show almost every other day and I have to reset it) -- and when my upstairs one gets the new dish home, it crashes when I try it and gets rolled back to the older firmware every time

But that's an "okay" thing -- people assume (and I mostly thank MS for lowering the standards to which programs are made BIGTIME) that anything computer powered is going to be fidgety and randomly want to screw up, so programmers are given a bit more slack for making crappy code.

Thank goodness for updatable firmware

 

[ken]

Excuse me Bob but I do know a little about programming DVR's. I work on a daily basis with 16 and 32 camera security DVR's worth $5000-$20,000 each and systems that average $50.000. Now I know what your going to say, E* is not going to spend as much time and money on a $300 DVR, well it may only be a $300 DVR but they will be selling a few million more of these units than the ones I work with. If E* refuses to do a proper BETA test and the programmers still release it they are not doing the job they are being paid for. As for the poll, I have seen a lot more useless polls than this one on this site.

 

[Pepper]

I agree, they should beta test more. And they should open it up to some of their more experienced customers instead of doing it all inhouse. For instance, they could scan the forums here and PM some people and offer them a buck or five off the monthly bill if they will provide good testing and bug reporting.

 

[OoTLink]

Personally I think the OS (if it is indeed linux based) should be a little bit more open source (well, except for the encryption system) -- that way they'd actually lower R&D a little bit (maybe even have a "suggestions" part on their site), but still have nifty development going.

Having a better 'all around' experience instead of the junky menus and such cable companies use would be a pretty good selling point to people.

 

[SimpleSimon]

My 2 cents - from over 30 years of everything from micros (I beta-tested the 8086) to mainframes (I worked for the guy that was chief architect of the IBM 360/370).

I have no doubt they are underpaid and overpressured, but the bugs they introduce, and get past "testing" are just ridiculous.

 

[riffjim4069]

Well, I have had E* service for 5 months now and I have had to reboot my two 811s and one 942 a total of twice (combined). Without looking, I think I have been though 3 software updated on the 811 and 5 software updates on the 942. Yes, there are few annoying feature related problems, but by and large I can't complain. I vote good job.

 

[ken]

riffjim, I know the 942 has been out for about 6 months but I'm not sure if it use's linux, does it ? I have not heard what kind of problems have been found on that receiver but if you are doing that good I would consider you very lucky. If I'm not mistaken the 811 is an upgraded 6000 and would not have the DVR software problems of the 721, 921 or the 942. But I would have thought you would have had some HDTV issues. I wish I could say I was as happy.

 

[mrschwarz]

They need to look at usability issues as well basic software design. What good is a new feature that takes 20 moves to get to?

Why does a dual tuner unit skip recording a timer by priority when one of the tuners is idle?

Why can't a user set default behaviors for anything other than beginning and ending padding?

 

[riffjim4069]

riffjim, I know the 942 has been out for about 6 months but I'm not sure if it use's linux, does it ? I have not heard what kind of problems have been found on that receiver but if you are doing that good I would consider you very lucky. If I'm not mistaken the 811 is an upgraded 6000 and would not have the DVR software problems of the 721, 921 or the 942. But I would have thought you would have had some HDTV issues. I wish I could say I was as happy.

There are some annoying feature problems with the 942, but it has been rock solid for the most part. As for the 811, it too has been very reliable. I have read the horror stories of the early software days and I had originally ordered E* service in December 2003 along with two 811s. However, E* stiffed me (failed to send receivers to the installer and notify me of the cancelled appointment) so I found VOOM a short while later.

I have no idea what OS the 811 or 942 are using, but I pretty much follow a routing that worked well for me when I had VOOM DBS service:

- Turn off all receivers when not in use.
- Soft reboot all receivers after receiving a software update.
- Hard reboot all receivers on the last Saturday of every month.

The only other thing I did was to run and test all my cabling...to include both of my OTA antennas. I don't mess with diplexers, combiners, splitters, separators, etc., just make everything as simple as possible and keep Satellite and OTA wiring totally isolated.

 

[ken]

I guess I should have broke down the poll by receiver type. But I think the results would still be the same.

 

[Anole]

508 user

I've used 508's for about 18 months, and have watched new bugs introduced as they "upgraded" the firmware.
This man's post comes closest to my opinion of the E* programmers:

I have no doubt they are underpaid and overpressured, but the bugs they introduce, and get past "testing" are just ridiculous.

I've written assembly language for embedded systems, including credit card scanners, cell phone related projects, printers, and things I don't even remember.
I always took the most defensive path to prevent customers from screwing up the system.
But still you beta test and see if they can find anything.
And, then you fix it !

I thought the 508's worked pretty well 18 months ago. (my bad memory?)

There was no point in the new look they introduced.
If that's what they spent their time on, it was time not well spent.

Bugs relating to pixelated video have surfaced in that time.

Leaving it in stand-by mode should update the guide.
I know it won't sometimes.
Whether that's true all the time, I can't say.

You can get the PVR into lost modes where it won't respond to the remote, due to fast button pushing, I think.

The best cure seems to be: pull the card, wait 30 seconds, then stick it back in!

The poor Canadians have been bitching about their Feb '05 firmware update.
It seems to do different things on different PVRs... (build sensitive?)

There was a name based recording feature promised for the 508 family for around Xmas of 2004.
Last I heard, it's not likely to be shown before Xmas of 2005!

I watched the 522 educational video, and then programmed one.
If that's what Dish thinks name based recording is... more people than the programmers need a good beating.

I'm stuck with what I have, but I do like it when it works.
Changing would cost a lot of money, with no guarantee of better equipment/service.

My motto: better the devil you know.
.

 

[mpeltz]

I have to support Big Bob's post. I've been a software developer for many years and there's been plenty of situations where upper level management decided to release software way before it's ready to ship due to marketing plans. Also, there's a growing trend to add more and more features without adequate time to address existing bugs.

Dish recently introduced their PocketDish product that can be hooked up to the Dish 942. As a consumer, I would have preferred them to focus exclusively on bug fixes and not introduce new features. Who cares about PocketDish, that has no purpose in the DVR world.

 

[Pepper]

...(I worked for the guy that was chief architect of the IBM 360/370).

Did you ever have the opportunity to meet Frank Soltis, the architect of the AS/400? I met him at a conference once, seemed like a really nice (and smart!) guy. Those guys definitely know how to design, build, test, and release software.

 

[mrschwarz]

When I think of the programmers at Dish, I am including their supervisors and managers. I have never seen the number of versions released in such a short period of time as with my 522 (and it seems with the 942).

Releasing a new version a few days after a previous new version only means one thing. Testing did not demonstrate a problem that was revealed in the field in a few short hours. This means that the testing was either non-existent or inadequate.

The problem is not with the skill of the programmers per se. It is with the management philosophy of release it, then test it.

I stand by my earlier statement of usability, too. Using the many features provided is way too much work. They need to approach the user interface more from the user's point of view.

 

[SimpleSimon]

The best cure seems to be: pull the card, wait 30 seconds, then stick it back in!

Unh - I would NOT do that except as a last resort. It puts excess wear on the contacts. Much better to do a soft (hold power button for 5+ seconds) or hard (pull power for 15+ seconds) reboot.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Did you ever have the opportunity to meet Frank Soltis, the architect of the AS/400? I met him at a conference once, seemed like a really nice (and smart!) guy. Those guys definitely know how to design, build, test, and release software.

Nope - different division of IBM entirely, plus I never worked for them. I worked for Amdahl Corp. - as in Dr. Gene Amdahl.

Oh - as for the PocketDish, it DOES have value, being portable. I've seen one, and it seems to work just fine (probably because it was developed by Archos, NOT E*).

 

[mpeltz]

Oh - as for the PocketDish, it DOES have value, being portable. I've seen one, and it seems to work just fine (probably because it was developed by Archos, NOT E*).

I agree that it has value is the world of portability/mobility, but it's not a core DVR feature. What I meant to say was that DISH needs to focus on the core DVR features and make those features stable and reliable before embarking on adjunct features that consume valuable (and limited) resources/time to implement.