What is "Service ID" ? (1 Viewer)

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Pixl

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I'm using a Geosat 1100-C attempting to manually program in a channel. I'm asked for a service ID along with the usual Vpid, Apid, and PCRpid. I see everything I need on "The List" except service ID.

Jim
 
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Pepper

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Mar 16, 2004
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I think this might be the 'channel number' for example if you were on E*119 'dish 101' would be service id 101. You may can just make up a number. Lyngsat has this info if im not mitsaeken. :)
 

Mr Tony

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yeah service ID is just what channel you want it to show up as

When I inputted the CW's off 91W I used 101,102,103 as the service ID...but you can make it show as anything :)
 

Pixl

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Ok, thanks guys, I was able to complete a manual channel input with that info, however I didn't fix what I started out trying. I'm pointed at Hispasat, very interesting sat, but no sound on RTPA Intl. channel. When I press stereo/L/R button I get sound for just a second. I thought the pids might be the trouble. Any ideas?

Jim
 

Mr Tony

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I just tried it today on my Geosat200 and regradless of what you put in as "Service id" it still logs the channel at the end of the sat list. SO I just used "1" as the service ID ;)
 

SatelliteAV

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Service ID or SID is assigned to service in the PMT transmitted on the transponder. Receivers often use the SID to automatically track updates to a specific service using a network scan function. The PIDs including the SID will be displayed on the GEOSATpro DVR1100c, DSR100c and DSR200c if you press the List/OK Button then press the INFO Button. The receivers will automatically long the SID if you Blind Scan, Satellite Scan or Transponder Scan.

Lyngsat usually provides the SID if it was reported or when present on the MUX.
 

jogon64

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Sep 18, 2009
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Ok, thanks guys, I was able to complete a manual channel input with that info, however I didn't fix what I started out trying. I'm pointed at Hispasat, very interesting sat, but no sound on RTPA Intl. channel. When I press stereo/L/R button I get sound for just a second. I thought the pids might be the trouble. Any ideas?


Jim,

You have to manually scan this particular channel with

vpid 1000
apid 1001
pcr 1001

Great sat, huh?
 

Pixl

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Traverse City, Michigan
Brian,

Thanks for responding to my question. Can I still get the update if I am in the advanced/hobbist mode? How would find the OTA-SSU update?

Jim
 

SatelliteAV

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Brian,

Thanks for responding to my question. Can I still get the update if I am in the advanced/hobbist mode? How would find the OTA-SSU update?

Jim
The GEOSATpro DVR1100c, DSR100c and DSR200c units are the only FTA receivers in North America to be updated by satellite! Place your KU dish on Galaxy19 and go to the Utility Menu, select OTA and Update Now.
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
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Western Maine
I waited until the intended discussion was pretty much finished before bringing this up, as it's not really that related, except to the subject.

Ie, it's always seemed to me that there is a bit of ambiguity between some of these terms.

Here, we're talking SID=Service ID=channel number . In DCII talk, SID=Source ID, and channel number=service number. When using TSREADER to analyze muxes, generally the channel number=program number=Service number, and Service ID generally refers to a reference to a specific channel number that contains an EPG or some similar program that contains data about the various channels on the network, ie might not even be on the same transponder. Dishnet muxes seem to use SID numbers that are the EEPG channel on only one transponder.
Anyway, although it seems to be pretty common for receivers and web pages to refer to the channel number as being the SID or Service ID, I'm wondering if it is really more appropriate that SID/Service ID not refer to channel number???
The above is more of a question than a suggestion, as I really don't know the proper definitions of the terms. It's just that it's pretty apparent that there is ambiguity in the definitions people use.
 
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Ironsides

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Dec 4, 2008
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I think

I think Skyvison has a couple of PDF files for download that contain all the data being discussed..Not sure about that...Seems like I downloaded them from that site.

BJ, I Have 3 receivers that refer to EPG data as NIT in the setup menu..it also calls for all the other id datas...But that's a story for another day. I just thought what you're saying was interesting...
 

Mr Tony

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B.J.

On the GeosatPro units when you want to manually add PIDS one of the options says "service ID". Its the only receiver I've seen with that.

Why is it there? Dont know....regardless of what number you put in (1,2,3,1000) when you scan in the channel after entering the PIDS (ala the CW channels), it always puts the channel at the end of the list
 

B.J.

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Oct 15, 2008
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Western Maine
B.J.

On the GeosatPro units when you want to manually add PIDS one of the options says "service ID". Its the only receiver I've seen with that.

Why is it there? Dont know....regardless of what number you put in (1,2,3,1000) when you scan in the channel after entering the PIDS (ala the CW channels), it always puts the channel at the end of the list
Yeah, with my Diamond 9000, you don't see this when adding a manual PID entry channel, however when using the channel editor (which by the way is the best channel editor I've run into), you get a window the 2nd entry of which is "Service ID". I wondered why in the world would they have that there, as it's not necessary. I've always just left it blank.
The 9000's channel editor also has an option saying "don't update with Service ID", which I assume that if you rescan a transponder, that it will or won't either change the entry or change the channel number or something. Never fooled with that parameter either.
But anyway, since the more sophistocated stuff like TSREADER calls Service ID something different, I wish that they would refer to his as Service Number instead, but I guess it's easy enough to figure out what they're referring to.
 

AcWxRadar

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Apr 26, 2006
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I am not sure that I know what the heck I am talking about, but I have a hunch.

Based upon Brian's response, I get the impression that the particular box that the OP has is a special STB that can receive updates to it's software/firmware and sat/TP/Channel list via the satellite feed. In order to facilitate this option properly, you have to enter the Service ID of a or the appropriate channel in order for it (the receiver) to allow the routing of such updates properly into the receiver.

Do you see where I am going with this?

If you don't enter the correct service ID, the auto updates via the satellite feed won't function. In other words, you need to tell the STB to look at a specific channel for such updates/upgrades via the sat by showing it the "path" or navigation route to follow and the SERVICE ID is part of the addressing of that.

I am not sure that this is what they are doing, but it sounds reasonable to me. Otherwise, it's a very good line of bull from me. :D Seriously, though, wouldn't something along this line make sense? At least that is the impression that I got from Brian Gohl's reply earlier in the thread, but I cannot say that I understood it fully or accurately.

RADAR
 

SatelliteAV

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Further explanation of SID purpose for a receiver.

The Service ID is the unique numerical ID that the uplinker has assigned to a specific service. Many receivers have the ability to either scan for updates to channels already scanned into the receiver (Network Scan). Other receivers automatically update changes to existing services without the need to manually rescan. In order for the receiver to update the correct service in the MUX, it must identify the service. The SID provides this identification of the service.

The SID only determines the order of the channels in the channel list when the receiver features this sorting feature.
 

Mr Tony

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Based upon Brian's response, I get the impression that the particular box that the OP has is a special STB that can receive updates to it's software/firmware and sat/TP/Channel list via the satellite feed. In order to facilitate this option properly, you have to enter the Service ID of a or the appropriate channel in order for it (the receiver) to allow the routing of such updates properly into the receiver.

The GeosatPro receivers have 2 modes
Glorystar and Advanced.

IN the Glorystar mode it will automatically update the software when there is new software out there. Also each Monday it updates with the Glorystar approved channels. If you read the review I did, when you select Glorystar in the manu setup it automatically loads the G* channels from 97 & 101

Advanced mode is for us hobbyists but you can manually update the software by goign to 97W and saying "update". Its a really neat feature. No need to update software via RS232 ports or USB options.
 

SatelliteAV

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The SID feature is not used for the GEOSATpro weekly update process.

Many STB manufacturers offer the network updating. I believe that many of the Fortec Star (Mercury II) and Hyundai (Coolsat 4000) products could sort and update with SID network information. FYI: SID Network updating is widely used in Europe on the Astra / Hotbird Muxes.
 

B.J.

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Oct 15, 2008
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Western Maine
Further explanation of SID purpose for a receiver.

The Service ID is the unique numerical ID that the uplinker has assigned to a specific service. Many receivers have the ability to either scan for updates to channels already scanned into the receiver (Network Scan). Other receivers automatically update changes to existing services without the need to manually rescan. In order for the receiver to update the correct service in the MUX, it must identify the service. The SID provides this identification of the service.

The SID only determines the order of the channels in the channel list when the receiver features this sorting feature.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I've been doing a bit of studying to try to determine what is really the proper terminology, ie
(1) that Service ID = Channel Number
_OR_
(2) that channel number = "Program Number" = "Service Number"
and "Service ID" = a link to another service such as an EPG which describes all channels.

The first description (1) is what many receivers seem to have adopted, and what SatAV and others have described here.
The second description (2) is what DVB stream analyzers such as TSREADER and some other ones say, when fed a DVB transport stream.

So I searched the net trying to find a document with somewhat official definitions of these terms. I've tried this before, with poor results, because unfortunately, the organizations that generated and keep these specs either charge for downloading their documents or require membership, or both. However I did find TWO documents, which seem pretty definitive on the matter, ie:
http://actamont.tuke.sk/pdf/2008/n1/23dalmi.pdf
and
http://www.dtv.org.br/download/en-en/ABNTNBR15603_2D1_2007Vc_2008Ing.pdf

The 2nd document, show that data structure for PAT on page 13, PMT on page 14, and SDT on page 15.
The 1st document shows the data structure for the SDT in Fig 3.

Both these documents show the SID (Service Identifier) as being an element in the repeating section of the SDT. The Service Identifier does NOT show up in either the PAT or PMT, however the PAT and PMT include a parameter which the 2nd document calls "Broadcasting Program Number Identifier".

When I capture the raw data from a mux, and look at it with a binary editor, this "Broadcasting Program Number Identifier" is clearly the channel number, so I would have to say that Channel Number= Program Number from this.

Also, I looked at a random Dishnet transponder, ie the 119 12253 transponder, and looked at one of the channels at random, ie WETA.
TSREADER indicates that the "Program Number"=8076 and the "Service ID"=36861 . To make sure that this was in fact the actual data, I captured the raw SDT data from this mux, found the WETA portion of the repeating section, and sure enough, I found 8FFD , which equates to 36861.

Anyway, assuming that these two documents I found are correct, and I have to assume that they are, because they agree with TSREADER, and I'm sure that Rod wrote that program from the official IEEE specs or DVB definitions, it sure looks to me like the term SID or Service Identifier has a completely different meaning from what many receivers and people on this group and others seem to think it means.

I did run into some confusion though, which makes me a little less sure about how this all works. The 36861 number is actually the channel number of the EPG on the Dishnet system. When I tried this a couple days ago, I was able to look at the NIT, and find out what transponder the EPG was on, and it was there (I think). Today, however, I look at the NIT, and it tells me that the 36861 EPG is on 12486, however it isn't there. Also, the SDT entry indicates that the 36861 EPG is on 12486. I am confused as to why it's not there. I'm pretty sure that I checked this out yesterday or a couple days ago, and it WAS there, so if DN receivers use the Service ID, I don't know where they go to get the info when the channel isn't there today. Perhaps it only broadcasts occasionally???

Anyway, I'm still trying to learn how this DVB stuff works on a bit level. I find it pretty interesting. BTW, many/most of the DN channels don't even list a "Service ID", but the ones that did all referred to one of the EPG channels.
 
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