An Apology to the FTA Community

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What harm would it do to have Rick make it so that only people logged into his site view the feeds?
I wonder why he does not do it to prove his point
FTA is such a small part of what we here in north america use to watch tv.I just dont understand why broadcasters would go out of there way to stop such a few from watching.
My theories are, in no particular order......
1) Money, plug all the leaks
2) Bragging about making money from somebody's "free gift"
3) Dish and Direct tried of hearing about the great HD Quality people are getting for free
4) Dish secured their signal, so the Providers are securing theirs
5) Post feed info in public, after being told not to

As for his "source" well let me put it this way, if he has a source why on earth does he not post CBS feeds on his forum? He had about 5% of the feeds this year till I posted them, I checked last year's thread and his forum had about 10%. Yeah I am sure he has a source at CBS who told him why they encrypted.
Maybe they knew if that info was posted in public, it would be scrambled.
 
So I have decided to see how much is indexed by Google from Ricks site..

You can too...

Create a Google Alert that will be emailed to you when something is indexed from his site.

Click This Link to setup a Google Alert ---> Google Alerts - Monitor the Web for interesting new content

Use Gofastmotorsports as your keyword and Set type to everything and how often to As-It happens and see what you get over the next few days.

See what you get after a few days. You might be surprised.

Again all this can be avoided if Rick would just require a login to view the feeds. That is all I as a fan of FTA television am looking for.

Some of you here have tried defending Rick, which I have no problem with at all if you did that at Ricks your post would be removed and you would be banned. Why is that?

For those of you defending Rick I ask you... don't you want to protect these free to air finds from getting scrambled? Wouldn't you want them protected behind a login so at least you can say "you can't blame Ricks?" if something gets scrambled in the future?

We ALL love the feeds and want to see them unscrambled for as long as possible, requiring a login to view the feeds is such an easy thing to do. Why can't Rick do that?

If Rick TRULY loves Free To Air then he needs to protect the feed posts, until then I stand by my opinion that Rick Caylor is helping to kill the Free To Air hobby.
 
If rick are the only one to bleme.Satellithe guys and Rick dont discusse on private about the problem .Because discussing that in public not good for free to air to.Tanka
 
Just wanted to add my "opinion", and that is that I consider Rick's forum a service to the hobby, and I don't believe for one second that the channels in question encrypted because of the post made over at Rick's forum. In fact, the message that immediately preceded the post suggested that the uplinkers were planning to encrypt soon.
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What makes much more sense to me, is that this is just one more attempt to attack Rick's forum for no good reason. I really sense that this may have been the intent here from the start, although that is just a guess on my part.

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But switching to the topic of censorship for a second, yes, posts got deleted over there, but I have seen much less censorship there than on any other forum I've read, including this one. I quit the Sadoun forum because of censorship, so I don't put up with moderators messing with my posts without good reason. I have posted messages over at Rick's, which were taken to be criticism of receivers he sells, but my messages were not censored. Rick has good reason for censoring posts which attack him and his forum and his business. There has been a long ongoing WAR between Rick's forum and Satforums. Satforums censors messages referring to Rick's forum, and Rick censors all messages referring to Satforums. While I understand the reasons behind both sides of this argument, I really think that the attacks here have gone above and beyond what is acceptable. Besides the verbal attacks, once there was even a post promoting denial of service attacks to Ricks forum, and the next day when I tried to read the forums, I found that BOTH forums were down for several hours.... may have been a cooincidence, but I wonder.

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Anyway, I really think that this WAR has gone on too long, and I hope that it doesn't drift over into this forum. The bottom line is that ever since TVRO forums popped up on the internet back around 1990, there have been two sub-cultures in the TVRO community, one that believes that all feed info should be kept secret because if "THEY" know we're watching, they will scramble, and the other group believes that if people don't share this info, then we as TVRO hobbiests will lose, because we will be missing out on free channels that we don't know are there. One group believes that scrambling is the result of their feeds being made public, the other group believes that uplinkers encrypt or don't encrypt based on what is convenient for them, not due to what they read on the internet.
Personally, I believe that it is best for the hobby to make the feed info available to all TVRO'ers, and I think that Rick's forum is a good thing for the hobby. I do agree that it might be better if the forums or subforums were somehow protected from being harvested via Google and other search engines, however there are two sides to that argument as well. I think the big issue here, besides how to get the most viewer hours out of these FTA feeds before they encrypt is that the TVRO/FTA hobby NEEDS to attract newcomers, or else there won't be enough market for dealers like Rick and others to sell receivers, dishes and other related items. For years, the hobby has been artifically supported by the pirate industry, ie we have been able to buy cheap receivers only because there was a big market for them as pirate receivers. Now, that market is probably drying up to a large extent, so the question then becomes how are we going to continue to find an affordable source of receivers if the only dealers are in Europe. We NEED US based dealers, but that just can't continue unless we can attract new people to the hobby to buy from these dealers. If this feed info is kept secret, then newcomers aren't going to buy a receiver and dish if they don't know what it can receive. Rick's forum and Lyngsat are really the only places on the web where a newcomer can get honest info relative to what's available free up there on sat.

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Just as an example of what a newcomer can encounter, back in the mid 90s, when people were starting to switch to 4DTVs and/or commercial receivers like the 4200, I wanted to upgrade to DCII capability, but I couldn't tell from the info open on the web just what I could get with these receivers. I was mainly interested in receiving PBS, which had just switched over to DCII, but I couldn't find out what could be received free, and what was encrypted. Luckily, I knew of an individual who sold both receivers, so I emailed him, asking him what could I receive with these receivers, telling him I was specifically interested in PBS, but said I was also curious what else was free. He told me that the information was available, but only on a secret forum, but that you couldn't join the secret forum unless you owned a DCII receiver. He wouldn't even tell me if you could receive PBS with the receiver. It was basically, buy the receiver, then find out what you could receive. Since he was familiar with my viewing habits from my forum posts, I asked him what he would recommend, and he recommended the 4200V, although he told me that before it could receive ANYTHING, that it would have to be authorized, and to do that, you needed to know someone associated with one of the uplinkers, who could put your UID into the DCII stream. So I took a risk and bought the 4200V, which cost ~ $1200 . I then joined the secret forum, and found out what was available, got my 4200 authorized, and I never regretted the purchase, however it really hit me that how many people are going to risk spending $1200 to buy a receiver, when they don't know if it will even receive anything. It worked well for me, but it really convinced me that these secret forums, that keep newcomers from seeing what's available are really not in the best interest of the TVRO hobby.

Anyway, personally, I don't post feed info on public forums, mainly because I like to read several different forums, and am trying to get along and follow the rules of the several different forums I read, and the easiest way to do that is to restrict my feed postings to just one place, so as not to make a mistake and be accused of stealing info from one place and putting it on another.
However, when I read all these attacks on Rick's forum, I really have to speak out, and say that I really think that these attacks are not warranted, and the attacks are doing a disservice to the TVRO/FTA hobby. And my honest "opinion" is that this particular attack was fabricated from the start. I may be wrong, but since I regularly read all three forums on a daily basis, that is the only conclusion I can come to.
 
I have read this thread and the one over at the other site.

I also saw the original post made over there by “Feedman”, who posted about some ITC feeds which were at the spots that were posted and they were FTA and they continued to be FTA for 1 week after those feeds were posted.

Now there is a response by the owner of the other site which has some discrepancies as to the time line but I know what I saw and what I have seen by personal viewing of those feeds in question. If they want to twist things around that is their right and their opinion.
I have no personal animosity towards any of the other sites out there and would agree that if there was a login procedure set in place so the goggle bots could not plaster it all over then this could help to keep this hobby alive for finding those “Clean” feeds.
From a business point of view, it would not hinder sales but only increase them all the more if the posts were made available by login only.

I do not know who “FeedMan” is or anything but what he has posted and what Scott has said in earlier posts, and have no reason to discredit this person based on what I have seen and read so far as what was written was indeed accurate information.

I do remember back in the 90’s when there was a station that aired footage of another’s program before it was to air on their tv stations giving away the plot and it caused an uproar between the two affiliates. This caused some analog FTA programs to be distributed by “hand” for a few episodes so this type of incident would not occur again.
At the time this happened I was on a list that was actively hunting down those clean feeds and some of us had contacts in the industry who notified us what was going on at the time. So yes, posting info about clean feeds in the open has been a major “claw” in the network industry for many years.

What has been done is now water over the dam and can not be undone.
There is only moving forward, and let the lesson stand that certain feed information should never be posted in the open where it can get back to the networks.

This does not mean you should never post anything you find, just that certain feeds you must use discretion as to whether or not it is worth the risk of you never being able to view it again.

As for the censorship remarks, anyone who owns the site where the info is being put out on has always retained the right to censor what is posted there. If one does not like it then do not post anything.

Making snide remarks about an individual’s character is never the way to go if you’re trying to influence them or help them in a direction that would make this hobby decent for everyone. That only leads to the injured party getting even more defensive and just flames the fire even more so, and the changes will never happen that could increase this hobby.
 
Thank you for your opinions.

I stand by my comments and again state that if Rick suport the Free To Air community then do whats best for it. Put the feed information behind a long in. Until then it is my opinion remains that he is hurting the hobby for us all.
 
The assertion that its personal is laughable. The man lost his parents to MURDER for goodness sakes, you'd have to be pretty heartless to attack him personally.. This is about ACTIONS, actions that are detrimental to our hobby. What was true in 1985 is true now. Providers see that we are promoting openly what we are watching, and that watching gets encrypted. I wish NO ill will to anyone. And I don't think you will find anyone on SatelliteGuys that would, because they would get bounced quicker than Ice bounces a hacker-type.

I think it IS interesting that the overwhelming opinion in the community is against the open posting of feeds....but yet we are the bad guys for pointing out the obvious truth. Prior to the OP's post, those feeds were ITC. A week later, they are encrypted. Ray Charles could see the connection. I don't get why you guys that embrace the destruction of our hobby can't see that. :)
 
I wish no ill will to anyone. I have said it before and have said it again I like his site. I am not affraid to say I use it all the time.

But this is a confirmed case of why something has been scrambled. And we have had many other cases like this one in the past.

The simple solution is to protect the feeds. When they are protected and if someone scrambles something people won't be pointing fingers because an attempt was made to keep this stuff hidden from the crawlers.

Since signing up for the Google Alerts today I have already received a few. This can be easily fixed by one person, why is he choosing not to?
 
Ok something doesn't make sense to me....Why wouldn't Rick want to have a login etc...If we continue to loose channels to watch, and we eventually have no equipment suppliers to sell the FTA products and so on... because there wouldn't be a profit in it....well isn't Rick killing his own sales? Isn't he hurting himself?
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.Unless a person is very wealthy you don't destroy your own business. Furthermore from what little bit I've seen of his site...censorship is alive and well. Post anything negative and within an hour or so it's deleted. I know not everyone agrees on this issue but at least at Sat Guys you can say it. Nothing against Rick personally, I just don't agree with his methods.
Blind
 
... I think it IS interesting that the overwhelming opinion in the community is against the open posting of feeds....but yet we are the bad guys for pointing out the obvious truth. Prior to the OP's post, those feeds were ITC. A week later, they are encrypted. Ray Charles could see the connection. ....

Relative to the statistics that &quot;the overwhelming opinion in the community is against the open posting of feeds&quot;, I'm curious how you came to that conclusion? By reading posts on forums that have vocal members with that opinion? I suggest that you go over to Rick's forum, and ask the opinions of the members there. I suspect you'd get a different answer. Then go to one of the dozens of pirate type sites, and do a poll there and see what you get. In other words, you are basing your statistics on only a small fraction of the TVRO community, and therefore the sample is biased.
As to &quot;Prior to the OP's post, those feeds were ITC. A week later, they are encrypted. Ray Charles could see the connection.&quot; , I could say that Prior to the OP'ers post those feeds were ITC, then I changed the cable on my sat dish, so it's &quot;obvious&quot; that I caused them to encrypt because I ran a new coax run. Makes about as much sense as the other conclusion. There are posts out there suggesting that it was known that this encryption was about to happen prior to the offending post. Encryption happens all the time, and all the time people jump to unsupported illogical conclusions relative to the cause. As far as I'm concerned though, I don't CARE if making stuff public occasionally causes something to encrypt, because it is hurting the hobby to keep this stuff secret. It doesn't bother me when things encrypt. It's the uplinker's right to encrypt if they want. I just watch free stuff, and every time something encrypts, something else pops up free, so for me, it's just a fun game finding what's free at any one time. I don't buy for a second the claims that XYZ is killing the FTA hobby by posting feed parameters, whoever XYZ happens to be at any given moment.
I go along with the secret society mentality rules of the forums I read, but that doesn't mean I agree with the logic. And I only posted in this thread, because I don't think it's fair to attack someone who in my opinion is helping the hobby. I can understand both sides of the issue, but I think people have to understand that there are a LOT of people on BOTH sides of this, both sides of the argument have reasonable reasons for believing what they believe, and it hurts the hobby more to have a WAR between the two factions. Threads like this show no respect for people with the opposite opinions.
Before this Rick's controversy came along, the big enemy from the same people was Lyngsat. And yet I'd venture a completely statistically unfounded guess that 99% of the people who criticized Lyngsat used it on a regular basis, and a high percentage got into the hobby because of what they saw was available on the Lyngsat site. I've been on the TVRO mailing lists and forums since they began, and people have been arguing this topic from the start, but in all that time, I've only seen maybe 2 or perhaps 3 examples of any hard evidence of things encrypting because of posts in open forums. And there is MUCH more to watch on satellite now than there was back when all the arguing began, and thanks to Lyngsat and Ricks, people who wouldn't otherwise be able to find the feeds are able to view the programming.
Just my opinion.
 
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I'll throw my 2 cents in the pot.

When an organization decides to encrypt a program, its not based on whether a few thousand FTA'ers are watching a feed but if someone is taking their signal and making money with it. Its about money and not letting others make money on your dime. They also look if the increased cost of encryption outweighs the possible lost of revenue.

People who have been around the satellite dish awhile know that certain movie channels and networks will ZK their signals during solar outages because of the problem with the corruption of authorization codes. Its cheaper for these organizations to briefly transmit ITC than hassle with all the calls from subscribers concerning loss of signal authorization.

For other channels that are encrypted, why would you think they don't know when a signal goes ITC. Its as simple as looking for a red or green light on a control panel or circuit card. Those indicators get checked at least at the beginning of each shift. And if the signal if found unencrypted, some sites have a 3 reset attempts rule. They will attempt 3 resets to encrypt the signal (maybe you've seen a signal cycle ITC, then encrypt, then ITC, then encrypt) and if that fails, they call the technician who may not be available or have parts available for a few days.

If encrypting organizations are really concerned about FTA'ers "stealing their signal", they would have already infiltrated all private forums years ago as mild-mannered hobbyists just so they could monitor what signals are being received ITC and "stolen". It may not be Rick's forum these organizations are monitoring but the private ones where they believe more current and valuable information can be obtained, thinking that the private forums have to be better or they wouldn't be private.

For me, I will continue to scan the ether, looking for things that interest me. I consider FTA a valuable hobby and not just an opportunity to see something I shouldn't see.

And finally, for those who remember drive-in movies, was it the people sitting outside the fence watching the movie for free who caused the demise of drive-in's or merely the changing of the times. Good luck to all.
 
Well after reading the whole thread I guess I can comment :) Lots of good comments in here

First off to the OP welcome :wave to Satellitguys. Hope you make yourself comfortable because unlike other sites we like to have fun. If you have a opinion that we dont like we wont ban you for posting your views or delete your post. If that was the case a couple folks would have been banned and their posts nuked like nothing happened. ;)
We use to have a mod here that did that but thankfully he is long gone and doing the same thing at his own site.
That is what doesnt make sense. If you have a different view and post there why does the post get removed? I guess Rick and the "kool aid drinkers" dont like bad press.

Also he posted his "view" about the OP and interestingly enough he locked the thread. Why? Afraid someone will see the truth if the OP could post his side of it.

As for the feeds we have lots of proof that it does happen because of his site. When people who are in the industry say the reason stuff is gone is because of his site well then ya better remove the blinders. It started with some jerk off who posted on the Speed website the coordinates for NASCAR/racing items and where to find them. Within a week they were scrambled. Now lets see...who owns Speed? Oh yeah Fox. What else do they own? Oh yeah the Big 10 Network. Gee most of the FSN/Big10 games are scrambled now. Big10 has been around since 07 and until this year not one game was scrambled. None zero zilch nada. Now almost all are. Once in a while we get a nugget. The one week when Big10 had like 9 games we had one game ITC because of it not being a FSN truck. Before this year the only FSN games that were scrambled were PPV games and those were hit and miss. So when will it end?

Its the truth that Rick is all about the $$. I bought a Quali-TV from him a couple years ago. Paid like $500 for it. That is when the only receiver out there for 4:2:2 was the Quali. Anywho he warrantied it for a year. 2 months after the year was up it died. All the analog ports went out so all I could use it for was HDMI (well DVI) and AC-3. Someone who is a member at both sites and has purchased from Rick before sent me a note saying "Talk to Rick. He has repaired my Quali-TV for FREE 2 years out of warranty. He'll help ya." So I sent Rick a very nice e-mail detailing everything I did and sent him screen pics. I signed it my name (Tony) and "Iceberg from Satelliteguys". The response I got was pretty much "well the board might be shot. I have boards here but it may not be worth it to fix. But hey I got a new receiver that does 4:2:2 now (the azbox) and maybe you should get that".
What irked me is I never said "fix it for free". I offered to pay (depending on the amt) to have it fixed but I wasnt even offered that.
Well I did get the azbox...from the guy in Miami for $100 less that slicky Rick.

So my view is still the same one I had for a while in regards to feeds being scrambled. Dont friggin blurt it out in public. Its happened before where people who are members here take info that is posted and post it there and poof stuff gets scrambled right away. And dont say "oh folks dont take stuff from here" because it has been done. Great example is when Montana PBS went to DVB-S2 it was posted here 10/1 at 6:30ish...posted there the next morning with "found this elsewhere" as the lead sentence.
 
If encrypting organizations are really concerned about FTA'ers "stealing their signal", they would have already infiltrated all private forums years ago as mild-mannered hobbyists just so they could monitor what signals are being received ITC and "stolen". It may not be Rick's forum these organizations are monitoring but the private ones where they believe more current and valuable information can be obtained, thinking that the private forums have to be better or they wouldn't be private.
But in this case (and a few others) it was because the programmer said it was because of the posting at Ricks. They actually mention Ricks by name. This is not the first time unfortunately.

Rick needs to do the right thing for all of us and require a login to view the feeds. It's that simple.
 
Apparently I am stupid, because I don't see how getting feeds encrypted is helping the hobby.

Rick's forum is the only one in the community that I am aware of that posts in public. Everyone else is by invitation only. Hackers will be hackers no matter what, there's no honor among them, they'd sell their own brother to steal DN. Posting feeds is baby stuff for them because they will only be interested until the next DN hack is done, and then they will go back to aiming their superdish or whatever.

A LOT of us have a substantial amount of money tied up in FTA, and right now if nothing changes it will be as much use as an analog TV is.

Newbies can get all the help they need by just asking. I did it, they can too. There's absolutely no need to open the world to them to explain how a dish works. That comes later, just as it happened to me. I was as lost as a goose, but I learned, got some help, and after I was judged to be sufficiently competent, I was allowed access to private areas.

If feed posting continues, encryption will continue, making our equipment useless. Is that what Rick wants? Because if he continues, that's what he will get. If he was only ruining things for himself, I wouldn't give a rat's behind. But they are ruining it for ALL of us. We have proof, its happening, yet its still denied.

I'll repeat what Scott said, WHY?
 
B.j thanks for your two posts!! you said exactly what i was thinking ... but i can't explain myself in english very good. Rick is an excellant person who runs a free to air forms who helps lots of people who only got started on this hobby now and experienced ones. i'm so happy to be apart of both forms!!!!! and who cares about one or two feeds so much to see in free to air!!!!!
 
Many of you know of my background is in Film and Video Production. Over the years I have been involved with the distribution of live of private events for Fortune 500 companies, worked seven years in production for a NBA franchise and hundreds of gigs on mobile trucks for concerts and sporting events. Up until now I have stayed on the sidelines of this debate but now I will share my personal observation, but choose not address the economics as a equipment reseller. This post is in no way is an endorsement of a site or to attack on another.

I have personally have required encryption on events based on the feed information posted in public and private forums....

During the analog days we usually would encrypt live event feeds if the content was of sensitive nature, the content owner required for contractual reasons or the content owner could experience economic loss with unauthorized viewing or distribution. Analog feeds were easily detected because there were only 24 C-band channels 32 full bandwidth KU-band channels per satellite and and tens of thousands of viewers could simply change channels on their receiver and "find" our private feed.

After the transition of the feeds from analog to digital there were few feed hunters with the ability to locate occasional use transmissions, limited sharing of the finds and very few compatible receivers. We understood that that there was a remote chance that a few folks might view our feeds, but there was a reasonable chance that with the variables of frequency, polarity and symbol rates the feed would remain undetected.

When Blind Scan receivers began showing up on the market we reviewed our policies and would not encrypt if the duration of the event was brief, on a unpopular satellite or if feed information was not posted. If we had a several day event or a pre-event test signal for site verification we would usually assign a staff person to monitor public and private forums where feed information was posted and would encrypt the feed if the information was posted. Usually we would try to avoid encryption as it would increase the number of site support calls, but if the feed was reported on a public forum we would contact the sites and enable the encryption. As previously pointed out, BISS is free, available and quickly implemented on most encoders and commercial decoders (receivers).

Blind Scanning for private use is not measurable and distributors assume that it will occur in limited instances. Sharing feed information in any forum is monitored by uplinkers. Sharing feed information in any public or private forum will promote awareness of the feed and possibly result in the encryption to secure the content. Content distributors are aware that people are receiving their feeds, but usually will not encrypt as long as the feed information does not go viral.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

Remember the World War II slogan, " Loose Lips Might Sink Ships".
 
and who cares about one or two feeds so much to see in free to air!!!!!
I care.
It's not just 1 or 2 feeds, it's 99% of what I watch, which may not be what you watch.
I don't watch much TV, but when I do, I enjoy the process of FTA and the beauty of full HD that comes with that.
 
B.j thanks for your two posts!! you said exactly what i was thinking ... but i can't explain myself in english very good. Rick is an excellant person who runs a free to air forms who helps lots of people who only got started on this hobby now and experienced ones.

So why is he trying to kill the hobby?

and who cares about one or two feeds so much to see in free to air!!!!!

Thank you for proving my point about the mentality of some of the folks at Rick's. Who cares about one or two feeds? A lot of folks, what if those were the feeds you like to watch? POOF GONE because someone posted it at Ricks.

Ask Rick what happened to NASCAR. *POOF GONE*

Rick does not have the common courtesy to protect the feeds from the crawlers. Its not a hard fix Rick. DO IT.
 
i'm so happy to be apart of both forms!!!!! and who cares about one or two feeds so much to see in free to air!!!!!

It was not just one or two feeds it was alot of feeds that went scrambled and I care!
It is great you do not care if what you watch gets scrambled. Why don't you just post what you like watching the most and then if I can get it scrambled for you see how you like it.

That is the point!

There is solution to the problem and it is not a difficult one, it only requires one to have a login setup for people to see the posts. Nothing more than what is done at this site which those defending the other are members of.
Is that asking too much?

If it is than I have a bridge I'd like to sell you in Brooklyn.
 
I think its time for some peace talks! Both sides make good points!I think rick would be willing to make a change but feels hes being backed into a corner with no way out.Someone today asked him about a change! and he did listen! this is part of what he said>>
I am open to change, but I will not be black mailed, sabotaged or threatened into making changes. Those type of tactics have the exact opposite effect with me.

I know some say it wont help but lets try to reason with him alittle more friendly!He seems like a man with lots of pride in what he does and if he feels like hes not being pushed,bullied etc anymore i bet he would work something out that would make both sides happy.Like others have said! Time to end the war.:)
 
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