Distant Network Shutoff on December 1st?

[Greg Bimson]

Sorry, but the analog NTSC OTA shut off has nothing to do with satellite TV.

Actually, that is incorrect.

The SHVERA (the one that was signed in December, 2004) separated the distant network license to delineate between analog and digital local channels. So, once analog broadcasting ceases to exist in February, 2009, then the analog distants would cease to exist at the same time. After the analog cut-off, only distant digital networks would be available.

That is why Dish Network would have ponied up $100 million. Dish Network wanted the ability to keep the digital distants instead of the injunction. Instead, all distant networks will be gone from Dish Network (both analog and digital), and now the only way for Dish Network to cover the country will be to add the digital channels by market.

Greg is spreading FUD. Pure and simple. I know he believes what he says, but it just isn't so. Dish takes thing to the letter of the law. The suit was about the analog distant channels and that is all they will cut off.

The injunction prevents the use of the license to deliver distant network channels. The license controls both analog and digital distants; it is the same license.

So, when someone from Wilkes-Barre was required to get a digital waiver from their local CBS affiliate to access the CBS HD feed, the waiver is tied to the license that is subject to the injunction.

So, if you have an HD waiver for CBS on Dish Network, you most certainly will lose it, because the license that Dish Network is now prohibited from using controls the delivery of both analog and digital distant networks.

And like I said before, if the CBS/Dish Network agreement is simply a blanket waiver of the SHVIA, then everyone will lose CBS HD.

No fear, uncertainty, or doubt. More along the lines of understanding the issue because of reading the court documents.

 

[Tower Guy]

The copyright law requires that the DBS companies must be able to prove that they are serving lawful subscribers. If E* accepts "moving" without verification, they will have repeated the same "pattern and practice" of abuse that they did for DNS.

17 USC 122 (g)

(g) Burden of Proof. — In any action brought under subsection (f), the satellite carrier shall have the burden of proving that its secondary transmission of a primary transmission by a television broadcast station is made only to subscribers located within that station's local market or subscribers being served in compliance with section 119 or a private licensing agreement.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#122

 

[Tower Guy]

Sorry, but the analog NTSC OTA shut off has nothing to do with satellite TV.

Actually it does, but in an odd way. The rules for analog "must carry" and "retransmission consent" refer to transmissions that will not longer exist after February 17, 2009. This catch 22 should be addressed by Congress and/or the FCC prior to that date.

 

[Tower Guy]

And like I said before, if the CBS/Dish Network agreement is simply a blanket waiver of the SHVIA, then everyone will lose CBS HD.

I believe that Greg is correct. However it remains to be seen if Echostar actually obeys the rules.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/artic...0-23_23-11-22_N23412692&type=comktNews&rpc=44

NEW YORK, Oct 23 (Reuters) - EchoStar Communications Corp. said on Monday it will ask Congress to clarify communications laws in the wake of a court ruling which prevents its subscribers from viewing distant network channels.

The No. 2 satellite television provider also said it will seek court review of a decision by a U.S. District Court in Miami on Friday which prevented it from broadcasting signals of ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox channels that originate outside communities that receive the signal.

Englewood, Colorado-based EchoStar's dispute over distant network channels has been in litigation for nine years and affects less than one million of its 12.5 million subscribers.

EchoStar, which operates under the DISH network brand, said the ruling does not involve local ABC, NBC, CBS or Fox Network channels.

To date it said it has been able to reach settlements with seven of the eight plaintiffs, representing approximately 90 percent of all television network stations.

On Aug. 28 it said it agreed a $100 million settlement with ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox Affiliate Associations.

But on Sept. 1, Fox Broadcasting Co., a unit of News Corp., filed for an injunction against EchoStar barring from retransmissions on behalf of Fox, ABC, CBS and NBC.

Fox, which is a sister company to EchoStar's rival satellite TV provider DirecTV Group, had declined to be part of the earlier settlement.


© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

 

[Juan]

Sorry, but the analog NTSC OTA shut off has nothing to do with satellite TV.

At that time there wont be any analogue distants to distribute. I think that is his point.

 

[waltinvt]

Greg is spreading FUD. Pure and simple. I know he believes what he says, but it just isn't so. Dish takes thing to the letter of the law. The suit was about the analog distant channels and that is all they will cut off. When the CBS HD station isn't cut off, and IF Greg is right (and he isn't) there will be ANOTHER action that will take some quite a bit of time to resolve.

I know I won't have the last word. That is the miracle for FUD. But I want to hear from the any person that actually loses CBS HD on December 1. Put it on this thread. Only then will I belive it (and even then, I will look for other possible causes).

See ya
Tony

I may be an example. I've had the NY CBS-HD feed for over 2 years. I'm 45 miles from the Burlington, Vt but can't receive any of their analog signals. None of their digitals (except Vt PBS) are transmitting yet and it's possible they'll be delayed until Spring if the weather doesn't cooperate.

No other CBS signals available, so maybe I'm in a true "white" area, I don't know. I still get NY analog distants for Fox, ABC & NBC from Dish but for some reason they didn't give me the analog CBS. I just recently added the LiLs back just in case the distants got pulled.

Could the fact that I get the CBS HD feed but not the analog mean it's because of the contract with CBS and not the distants
license or is it just a Dish screw-up? Seems like they would have grabbed the additional $1.50 a month from me if they could have.

 

[Hall]

At that time there wont be any analogue distants to distribute. I think that is his point.

Technically that is correct. It is still irrelevant to this court case and the issue it is dealing with.

 

[JohnH]

FOX Broadcasting's filing for the Injunction had nothing to do with it actually being filed.

SHVIA does not give any rights, especially to the general public. SHVIA and its predecessors gave satellite companies certain privileges and also spells out the penalty for violating those privileges. If you are being denied service, then you should ask your provider about it. You can ask your Congessperson to write a law which steals more copyrighted content, but don't be surprised or angry if they do not.

 

[riffjim4069]

EchoStar Communications Corp. said on Monday it will ask Congress to clarify communications laws in the wake of a court ruling which prevents its subscribers from viewing distant network channels.

A dime late and a dollar short...it sounds like EchoStar needs to hire lawyers who are capable of interpreting communications law.

 

[BobMurdoch]

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If a large chunk of the public gets angry enough during an election year, things will change...... Anyone remember what happened a few years ago when CBS went dark on E*? Granny went nuts when 60 Minutes went away, and Congressmen were apologizing, giving speeches that encouraged both sides to make an agreement.

Since the courts are the source of the problem here, the only remedy is a new law that removes the obstacle.

 

[waltinvt]

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/artic...0-23_23-11-22_N23412692&type=comktNews&rpc=44

NEW YORK, Oct 23 (Reuters) - EchoStar Communications Corp. said on Monday it will ask Congress to clarify communications laws in the wake of a court ruling which prevents its subscribers from viewing distant network channels.

The No. 2 satellite television provider also said it will seek court review of a decision by a U.S. District Court in Miami on Friday which prevented it from broadcasting signals of ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox channels that originate outside communities that receive the signal.

Englewood, Colorado-based EchoStar's dispute over distant network channels has been in litigation for nine years and affects less than one million of its 12.5 million subscribers.

EchoStar, which operates under the DISH network brand, said the ruling does not involve local ABC, NBC, CBS or Fox Network channels.

To date it said it has been able to reach settlements with seven of the eight plaintiffs, representing approximately 90 percent of all television network stations.

On Aug. 28 it said it agreed a $100 million settlement with ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox Affiliate Associations.

But on Sept. 1, Fox Broadcasting Co., a unit of News Corp., filed for an injunction against EchoStar barring from retransmissions on behalf of Fox, ABC, CBS and NBC.

Fox, which is a sister company to EchoStar's rival satellite TV provider DirecTV Group, had declined to be part of the earlier settlement.


© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

Dish is still trying to play the "D" / Fox "anti-trust" card, at least in the media but I think the smartest thing they could do (and I think they are trying to) is somehow get this whole issue into the politician's hands while at the same time generate a significant amount of public interest. That's the only way anything will change.

This really amounts to a battle of power versus people. We've reached a point where the role of local affiliate channels is no longer as necessary - at least not in the same way it used to be. Other than local news & weather, there is no longer any reason for them to exist other than on their own programming merits and without protection and safeguards, many of them would not be strong enough to survive.

Collectively however (via the NAB) they represent an extremely powerful lobby with a lot of money and something even better than money - airtime. This has always been enough to insure any legislation QUIETLY went in their favor.

However the majority of public opinion (if given the option) may now favor a more "competative" and less "protected" approach.

If this entire mess gets enough public attention, it just might get changed and that's the only chance Dish has left. I'm not sticking up for Dish at all - only the thousands of rural area people that depend on satellite tv.

The laws in this country could certainly be changed to give viewers more choice and still have appropriate copywrite protection if they really wanted to - they just may have to loose the NAB cash cow and affiliates may have to survive the same way any other business in this country survives - by being b-e-t-t-e-r than the competition.

 

[minnow]

Here is an article from TVPredicitions.com regarding this issue:

Will EchoStar Lose Distant HDTV Signals?

A federal judge says the satcaster must stop sending the channels to 800,000 subscribers.
By Phillip Swann

Washington, D.C. (October 24, 2006) -- A federal judge has ruled that EchoStar must stop sending "distant" network signals to 800,000 subscribers.

The ruling, which becomes effective on December 1, will cover High-Definition TV signals as well as standard definition feeds.

However, EchoStar said last night that it will ask Congress to allow it to continue the service.

"EchoStar will continue to do everything possible to prevent consumers from losing their distant network channels," the company said in a statement. "We will ask Congress to clarify the statutory language, and ask the courts to re-consider their decision. In addition, we are taking numerous steps to protect our customers from unnecessarily losing access to those channels."

At issue is EchoStar's practice of providing "distant" network signals to subscribers who say they can't get their local networks by other means, such as an off-air antenna. The satellite service offers feeds from network affiliates in New York and Los Angeles to those customers.

However, local stations have objected, saying their ratings are hurt when viewers watch the "distant" signals instead of theirs. EchoStar earlier this year agreed to a $100 million settlement with affiliates of NBC, ABC and CBS, but Fox rejected the deal.

Fox is owned by News Corp., the corporate parent of DIRECTV, EchoStar's chief satellite rival.

After Fox refused to accept the settlement, EchoStar sued the network saying it was "conspiring" to put it at a competitive disadvantage.

Unless Congress -- or a higher court -- intervenes, EchoStar will be forced to shut down the "distant" signals on December 1. Wall Street analysts have estimated that the action could cost the company millions annually in subscription fees.



According to this article HD DNS signals are also illegal now as well.

 

[Hall]

According to this article HD DNS signals are also illegal now as well.

Says who ?? Phillip Swann ??

 

[JohnH]

The article fails to mention the real objection of the affiliates which was providing the signals to subscribers which were not elligible.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Sorry, but the analog NTSC OTA shut off has nothing to do with satellite TV.

Actually it does in regards to network tv. Both satellite companies will have to re aim their antennas in the local dmas from analog reception that won't exist after february 2009, to their digital channel counterparts. That doesn't mean that the sat companies can't down convert the digital hd signal to analog though. That is most likely what they will do, but in the end the analog ota channels will end in February of 2009.

 

[digiblur]

Actually it does in regards to network tv. Both satellite companies will have to re aim their antennas in the local dmas from analog reception that won't exist after february 2009, to their digital channel counterparts. That doesn't mean that the sat companies can't down convert the digital hd signal to analog though. That is most likely what they will do, but in the end the analog ota channels will end in February of 2009.

The average everyday customer would never know the difference if the uplink from their local station switched from an NTSC to ATSC or to fiber for that matter. That was the point I was making.

You can bet the same rules will apply to out of market locals on ATSC by the analog transition dates.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Says who ?? Phillip Swann ??

I dont see anythiing in the ruling which states this.

Swann must be in Denver this week,, where the air is VERY thin.

 

[Greg Bimson]

You can bet the same rules will apply to out of market locals on ATSC by the analog transition dates.

No, that is not the case.

The analog distant networks were simple: qualify, and you get your choice of two distant networks. For DirecTV, the choice is made for you, as you can only get NY and LA distant analog networks. For Dish Network, you have (or should I say had)your choice of networks in four cities.

Distant digital networks were different: if your digital local channels are available, you must take them and not your distant digitals. If your market is unavailable in digital through satellite and you qualify, you cannot receive locals from an earlier time zone.

The digital rules for analog are different from digital. There are more differences, but I don't recall exactly what they are.

 

[Chris Walker]

FOX Broadcasting's filing for the Injunction had nothing to do with it actually being filed.

.

I don't know John, I know the judge was ordered to issue an injunction, but IMO without FOX's whining and their court filings after the settlement was proposed, I think the injunction would have been a forgotten issue.