Has Paramount doomed HD-DVD?

[JoeSp]

Let's see, TWO HD-DVD discs in Transformers and no Lossless Codec. The Jack Ryan series breaks on HD-DVD and the EXTRAS are NO Where To Be Found!

Let's examine the response from the HD-DVD crowd!

Cochise Guy wants to compare Transformers to Robocop in the audio department. He does not compare Spiderman3 because he knows that the HD-DVD cannot compete. Spide3 on has TWO Lossless Codecs so why compare Transformers audio specs to something it cannot compete with? Good move there Cochise Guy.

Diogen breaks in with -- wait for it -- it is NOT the limits of 30gbs but the limits of HD-DVD's bandwith! Most of us have known that this limit was on HD-DVD and that for a really big movie something was going to have to go -- I see that Paramount decided that the biggest release for HD-DVD this fall did not need a lossless codec. Heck, most of the HD-DVD studios don't even offer support for a lossless codec on HD-DVD. And of those that do, they do not offer a Lossless Codec on all of their HD-DVD releases. Thanks Diogen for pointing out that HD-DVD is NOT the Equal of BluRay - not in space and not in bandwith.

Of course, lets not leave out Paramount. They have already stated that there was not enough space? TWO HD-DVD's totalling 60GBs and they could not find space for one Lossless Codec? Then they don't know WHAT HAPPENED to the Extras on the HD-DVD version of the Jack Ryan Series? They got 150 MILLION DOLLARS from Toshiba and the HD-DVD crowd and they obviously don't even care about Lossless Codecs. 150 MILLION DOLLARS and they obviously have forgot about those EXTRAS on the Jack Ryan HD-DVDS -- but they are on the regular DVDs! How about that for your $150 MILLION BUCKS! Thanks Paramount for working for the other guys right now -- You are really helping out!

 

[teamerickson]

If disc sales are any indication, then no.

They need to start using VC-1 so they can have room for lossless.

 

[diogen]

... Most of us have known that this limit was on HD-DVD...

Most? Hmmm... Could be. But not you. And you still don't get it.
Why else would you continue the rethoric about Trasformers being 2 discs and no lossless?
But hey, I don't want to be to hard on you - too easy of a target.
In a few months lossless fad will diappear from your posts as did calibration obsession, xvColor, 4:2:2 color space,
360 add-on lossless support, DeepColor and other crap that dominated your posts just a few months ago.

Have your party while it lasts!

Diogen.

 

[Bountykiller]

I dont own either medium hence I have no bias, HD-DVD however seems like a poor to pathetic medium when you talk about the sheer space one holds versus that of the other. Honestly, the only sort of person who would ever argue for a clearly lesser product is someone daft enough to have bought it in the first place ;0 It seems to me like theres too many people in the HD-DVD world crossing their fingers and preying that HD-DVD doesnt go betamax on their asses ;0

 

[diogen]

...HD-DVD however seems like a poor to pathetic medium
...the only sort of person who would ever argue for a clearly lesser product is someone daft enough to have bought it in the first place

That was a very deep and thoughtful (if not thought provoking) post for someone claiming to have no bias...

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

Yep. The Blu-ray party will last many years, maybe longer than the DVD party. HD DVD has problems, and personal attacks, accusations and name calling will not change that.

And I've asked before, yet no one has answered. Think there's a reason for that in the answer?
"Can anyone show anyplace in the world where HD DVD has as large a market share as it does in the U.S.? - With documenting links, of course."

 

[GaryPen]

"Can anyone show anyplace in the world where HD DVD has as large a market share as it does in the U.S.? - With documenting links, of course."

Since it is the US market that concerns us, does it matter? You know, MiniDisc is still pretty big in Japan.

 

[diogen]

Since it is the US market that concerns us, does it matter?

There is a consensus on this issue between the two sides: who wins the US - wins the war...
AVS Forum - View Single Post - Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread IV: ONLY Questions to Insiders

But if this victory happens not soon, the setup might change: whatever the outcome - China wins.

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

No, there may be a consensus amongst AVS posters. You do understand that Amir is not held in high regard by all? His word is not final, and his latest job reassignment does not necessarily indicate a "promotion."

Is this a backhanded admission that the only place HD DVD is competitive is in the U.S.?

The world does matter. How parochial to think otherwise.

 

[GaryPen]

...whatever the outcome - China wins.

This is true regardless of topic. (And sad.)

Is this a backhanded admission that the only place HD DVD is competitive is in the U.S.?

The world does matter. How parochial to think otherwise.

The fact is that if HDDVD "wins" in the US, but BD wins globally, then we will see a proliferation of HDDVD here, regardless of what happens elsewhere. And, since we live here, that is indeed what should concern us.

Does it concern us that MD is a major audio format in Japan? Of course not. It is dead here. The same applies to any AV format. What concerns us here is what dominates here.

 

[jayn_j]

Does it concern us that MD is a major audio format in Japan? Of course not. It is dead here. The same applies to any AV format. What concerns us here is what dominates here.

Not necessarily true. Laserdisc was kept alive in this country because of its popularity in Japan. Pioneer never could have justified the player development costs strictly from the US market niche sales.

 

[VinceT3]

Spiderman 3 was one of the worst movies I've seen in a LONG LONG LOOOOOONG time..

 

[diogen]

Laserdisc was kept alive in this country because of its popularity in Japan.

Alive? Wouldn't be "on life support" a better description?

This is true regardless of topic. (And sad.)

I'm not sure. Don't we owe the Chineese the pleasure to be able to buy $25 DVD players?

Chineese got business savy in a very short period of time.
And I believe they managed to get the best out of this format war.

The CE IP holders are still pissed at their business practices of not paying IP licenses for whatever goes into a DVD player (as if US bothered about it in the first 10-20 years of their existence). And when HD/BD specs were finalized and it became clear there won't be truce (unified format), both sides (and especially Sony as the biggest IP holder in BD land) vowed to make sure the "DVD-story" won't happen again. Yeah, right...

First, the Chineese developed "their own" format (lipsticked HD DVD clone, in fact) and it looks like now both teams are racing to find Chineese manufacturers that would make them a favor to manufacture this darn thing... So, first they wouldn't share it unless paid and now they are happy if they can give it away.

And if the war isn't resolved before the Olympics where the Chineese format is suppose to debut in a big way, I believe China will decide who of the two is allowed to live...

Diogen.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Let's see, TWO HD-DVD discs in Transformers and no Lossless Codec. The Jack Ryan series breaks on HD-DVD and the EXTRAS are NO Where To Be Found!

Let's examine the response from the HD-DVD crowd!

Vurbano wants to compare Transformers to Robocop in the audio department. He does not compare Spiderman3 because he knows that the HD-DVD cannot compete. Spide3 on has TWO Lossless Codecs so why compare Transformers audio specs to something it cannot compete with? Good move there Vurbano.

Sigh! No Joe, that would be me who compared Transformers to Robocop. So, here - let me make your day: a direct comparison of Transformers to Spiderman 3 from reviews at the neutral site HighDefDigest.

Spiderman 3:
DL + SL 2 Disc set: Total 75GB disc space (theoretically)

PQ: Only 4.5 Stars: "Anything brightly lit or in daylight suffers from hot whites, which flatten out depth somewhat. Fleshtones also suffer, with even close-ups of the actors faces not looking natural in texture."

AQ: 5 Star Home Run!: "Two tracks are included -- a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround mix (at 48kHz/24-bit) and an uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround mix (at 48kHz/16-bit/4.6mbps). Although both tracks are quite stellar, if pressed, I would give the TrueHD a slight edge in terms of impact, dynamics and accuracy of sound placement."

Supplements: 4 Stars: "Note that unlike disc two, which is presented entirely in high-def, all of the video materials on disc one are 480i/MPEG-2 video only. Sadly, the quality is noticeably poor."

High-Def Extras: 0 STars, Zip, Nada: "Somewhat surprisingly for such a high-profile title, there are no Blu-ray content exclusives."

Overall Grade: 4 Stars

Transformers:
2 DL discs: Total 60GB

PQ: 4.5 Stars (Same as SM3): "Impressively, this transfer handles it all very, very well. The level of sharpness can also be a problem at times. Does 'Transformers' look absolutely "perfect?" No, but it is pretty damn close."

AQ: 5 Stars (Same as SM3): "[i}Note that although I'm giving this audio mix five stars, that doesn't mean I agree with Paramount's decision to forgo high-res audio on this title. That's not to take anything away from this truly exceptional mix, but this is one case where I think you truly can improve upon perfection." [/i]

Supplements: 4 Stars (Same as SM3): "Paramount has really loaded this two-platter set, not only with a superior set of extras carried over from the standard-def DVD (all presented here in terrific-quality 1080p/AVC MPEG-4 video), but also with a host of cutting-edge HD DVD exclusives."

High-Def Extras 4.5 Stars (to SM3's 0): "The concept of exclusive content on high-def disc releases is hardly a novel one these days, but Paramount has promised to take HD exclusives to the next level with its HD DVD release of 'Transformers,' and I have to say they've made good on the promise. Not only do we get a couple of nice HD DVD-exclusives encoded on the discs themselves, but we also get a suite of web-enabled features that, for once, are actually worth watching."

Overall Grade 4.5 Stars, compared to SM3's only 4 Stars.

 

[JoeSp]

The Chinese want their own format. They will support both BD and HD-DVD as long as the rest of the world is buying - but for their own people -- they will develope their own HD format. Besides, less the 10% of Chinese own TVs much less HD tvs. They are years behind the rest of the world when it comes to our particular format war.

And yes Diogen, I don't get it. The biggest release that HD-DVD is going to have the rest of the year and there is no Lossless Codec. Perhaps one of the biggest sellers of the year 'The Jack Ryan Movies' and there are problems with the extras.

Yes Diogen I don't understand, a payout to Paramount and Dreamworks of $150 million and no Lossless Codec is not good for the HD-DVD camp no matter how you look at it. Every big title coming out on BD has a Lossless Codec, some of them 2 Lossless Codecs!. That is like paying for the enchilada and not getting the beef.

Yes Diogen, I don't understand simply because when a BD product comes out without a Lossless Codec I read how BD is slipping. I read how expensive those BD discs must be. I read how BD cannot possibly do what HD-DVD is doing. And yet, it is HD-DVD that is without the Lossless Codec, without the extras (are they there and can not be found?) But yet you can now click on a product in the movie and go to a studio store and buy it? You must not be married because if I did that while my wife and I were watching a movie I would not get out of the room alive!

But you are right about the Chinese in that if you are cheap and you want to buy crap -- just buy Chinese! Since it only cost you half of what you would of originally paid who cares if you keep replacing the crap every year - right?

 

[JoeSp]

Sorry Cochise Guy. I have corrected my mistake. Looking at the two I am wondering which BD player the reviewer used. I have noticed that the PS3 does not burn the whites like the Samsung does. The Sonys BDs don't really do that either. However, I have heard that the LG's do run hot. My take on this is that BD players are just like DVD players - once you get your player you might have to play with your settings to get the best result.

Having compared the two, while sound is of a nature that is purely a matter of opionion I want to pose a question here. In reviews where the same title has come out on both formats and the HD-DVD had a DolbyTrue HD Codec and where the BD recieved a DD 5.1 at full mbps why has the review always been at least a 1/2 star less for the BD then the HD-DVD for audio? This happens every time. In addition, because so many BD titles come out with at least PCM if at least on Lossless Codec is missing the audio is once again reviewed at least 1/2 star less because of the omission? If you guess the ommission of the Lossless Codec caused the reduction then the same should be done for a HD-DVD review. Especially on that the HD-DVD camp paid $150 million to get an exclusive on!

My theory here is that is so small a percentage of HD-DVD titles with a Lossless Codec that the reviewers have given up on hearing one even though we are talking about one of the biggest blockbusters of 2007. Even the HD-DVD camp has given up on Lossless Codecs because they are okay with not having one and try to convince everyone that a DD 5.1+ is equal to a Lossless Codec - a comparisson that is as moot as trying to convince someone of the benefits of HD when they can not see the differance between SD and HD.

 

[diogen]

Besides, less the 10% of Chinese own TVs much less HD tvs.

What about 96% instead... Two years ago.
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China's breakneck media revolution

TV penetration is something like 96% of the population; internet 100 million users; mobile phones 350 million people using them...

That should pretty much take care of all the China BS in your post. Will you ever learn to check your numbers before typing them?
Nah... Stupid question, sorry...

What for the rest of your post, I noticed some sobering signs: no mad capitalizing, no emoticons and only 3 (!) exclamation marks on over a dozen lines.
Still, "Lossless Codec" is honored 6 times, but that will fade, I'm sure...

Diogen.

 

[GaryPen]

Not necessarily true. Laserdisc was kept alive in this country because of its popularity in Japan. Pioneer never could have justified the player development costs strictly from the US market niche sales.

I see what you mean now. So, if HD-DVD does "win" here, there is a good chance that BD will still be available here if it remains popular globally, or at least in a few other markets. Good point.

 

[JoeSp]

What about 96% instead... Two years ago.
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China's breakneck media revolution

That should pretty much take care of all the China BS in your post. Will you ever learn to check your numbers before typing them?
Nah... Stupid question, sorry...

What for the rest of your post, I noticed some sobering signs: no mad capitalizing, no emoticons and only 3 (!) exclamation marks on over a dozen lines.
Still, "Lossless Codec" is honored 6 times, but that will fade, I'm sure...

Diogen.

I will it give up to you on the percentage -- although that 95% is kinda high considering that 90% of China's population is rural and most are agraian in nature. I don't see them watching tv much. As a matter of fact, even when watching CCTV and their propaganda on the rural population I have yet to see a TV in any of those farm houses they go in. I wonder if that 95% is those living in the citys?

And yes, my excitement over these HUGE ommissions by Paramount would be subsiding. HD-DVD is what it is -- a good HD medium with not as much potential as BluRay but fairly equal in PQ when using VC-1. The audio quaility is another thing. I would rather of had one or two fewer supplements and a Lossless Codec to go with Transformers then the other way around. And those who spend hard earned money for their home theater audio would most likely agree. If HD-DVD wants to win this thing they should of had a guarentee from Paramount and Dreamworks that future titles would include at least DolbyTrue HD. Gee you would think for $150 mill the HD-DVD group would get something?

 

[diogen]

I will it give up to you on the percentage -- although that 95% is kinda high considering that 90% of China's population is rural and most are agraian in nature. I don't see them watching tv much. As a matter of fact, even when watching CCTV and their propaganda on the rural population I have yet to see a TV in any of those farm houses they go in. I wonder if that 95% is those living in the citys?

Have you been to China?
I have not and am willing to admit that some of those number could be of fishy origin (i.e. exaggerated).
But having lived outside of North America for longer than inside, I can tell you that the efficiency of the NA brainwashing mashine is matched only by it complete stupidity. Especially when presenting other countries. If you get a chance, compare BBC News to FOX News on any given day: can it possibly be they are talking about the same world?

Diogen.