Hopper Grounding ... Cheater Plug

[StevenMark]

A few months ago I upgraded from a 625 box to Hopper. The installer plugged the hopper into a "cheater" plug before plugging it into the power. I asked why he eliminated the electrical ground and he said he does that with all his Hopper installs now. He's had several of them fail right after plugging them in and using cheater plugs has stopped that.

I'm just guessing but maybe those failures were caused by not bonding the antenna ground to the service ground and difference in potential tried to balance through the Hopper's circuitry. I don't know enough about Hopper circuitry to know if that's even possible

For what it's worth, my antenna is properly grounded to the service ground through a solo node.

Can anyone here shed some light on why an installer would use a cheater plug?

 

[navychop]

Hmmm.

I have mine plugged in to a line conditioner UPS combo. I'd be REAL leery of by passing the plug grounding.

 

[hudgreen]

Your installer is being "pro active" he has learned his lesson before.
I have an extremely low tc rate, but some time things are beyond my control, like how a house is wired.
Having all the components on a plug strip, feeding the ground back through the coax to the grounded node or ground block, because there is an open (or non existent) ground at the outlet will cause all kinds of problems with the system.
If I suspect any issues i will test the outlet with with one of those 3 light testers.
No kidding here ,I could have been killed on at least four different occasions because an outlet has been wired wrong (hot neutral,hot ground ect..).
Nothing like plugging in the second hopper and hearing SPACK as the bright blue spark lights up the outlet and then the lights go out.... um mam where is your breaker box? Umm mam Ill be back in 30 min I have to go get 2 new hoppers cuz these are fried now.(there is a much longer story here but I digress)
Joeys /super do not have a ground plug and there just fine I wouldn't worry to much about it ,its leased equipment and home owners insurance will cover the rest (like lightning damage that will fry stuff grounded or not)

 

[SandFarmer]

When I had my initial ViP to HwS "upgrade" done I had a DDP44 and two dish's that was golden for many years. After over the next few weeks the Node(s) kept burning out. So eventually I was told since Duo Nodes were so "expensive" that I would had to go with a single "new" 1.2 dish and lose the DDP44. Since I have had every rain and snow fade that could be had, my reception numbers are far lower than ever and many times tests have come back with Tuner 1 totaly dead. With the two dish set up I never had any issues.

What is being said here makes perfect sense as to why the nodes may have gotten "burnt". BUT, I had obscenely massive grounding all over. So . . .

When the installer, who said he was also a "installation trainer" put in the new 1.2, he tried to take my 129 wing dish. I wouldn't let him because I knew in the future there would be problems and it would be needed. I would love to have the two dish's back and problem free reception. From what I have read here in that there are many that have DDP44's with no problems, I'm wondering if this "newly" discovered grounding might not have a wider impact and be a major factor with my install?

 

[harshness]

If you're dish is mounted on anything conductive, beware of touching the Hopper as you may get a jolt.

Using two-prong adapters isn't code (even if you have the ground lug "grounded"). It is workable with "double-insulated" devices, but the Hopper isn't double-insulated.

 

[Skytrooper]

Maybe it would be a good idea for installers to plug in a polarity tester before plugging in a Hopper. Using a cheater ain't a good idea.

 

[SandFarmer]

Sorry. I meant DPP44.

My dish's are anchored in solid concrete on top of my chimney with a ground wire that is staked into the ground. And the rest of the gear is all grounded at the outlets where we have new sub panels all over with big a$$ grounding by code, and still the nodes kept frying. I thought all along that it was an "electrical" issue within the system itself.

I would think that using a Polarity Tester before plugging anything in would be the thing ya just do. Prior to the installation of one of the HwS, I found a wall outlet that had the polarity reversed. That was easy to fix, but I wanted to make sure that things were in proper order before the install.

 

[JSheridan]

Sorry. I meant DPP44.

My dish's are anchored in solid concrete on top of my chimney with a ground wire that is staked into the ground. And the rest of the gear is all grounded at the outlets where we have new sub panels all over with big a$$ grounding by code, and still the nodes kept frying. I thought all along that it was an "electrical" issue within the system itself.

I would think that using a Polarity Tester before plugging anything in would be the thing ya just do. Prior to the installation of one of the HwS, I found a wall outlet that had the polarity reversed. That was easy to fix, but I wanted to make sure that things were in proper order before the install.

If your dish ground and your service ground are not properly bonded then that could very well be your problem. I would disconnect the dish ground stake and just run the dish wires through a ground block at the point of entry bonded to the service ground.

 

[SandFarmer]

If your dish ground and your service ground are not properly bonded then that could very well be your problem. I would disconnect the dish ground stake and just run the dish wires through a ground block at the point of entry bonded to the service ground.

That's the way it was. Now my service, which is on the completely opposite side of the house and 40 feet lower than the dish's, is grounded to the water main, there is a ground strap between the hot and cold taps on my water heater (code) and two 10 foot copper rods into the ground (code). The dish's themselves are grounded for lightening, as per the Senior Installer to the ground stake and the rest of the gear should be isolated from that and grounded though the cabling hookups which should be grounded through the units to the mains. Thus this topic controversy on lifting the ground on the boxes. But no burnt Nodes. I think the whole thing was just to get me off the two dish's and on to a new black 1.2 since you can see my install from miles away. Good advertising.

I think the install problem was more of a crossed connection not accounted for that the newer gear is more sensitive to, whereas, the older stuff, DPP, just worked.

 

[harshness]

The dish's themselves are grounded for lightening, as per the Senior Installer to the ground stake and the rest of the gear should be isolated from that and grounded though the cabling hookups which should be grounded through the units to the mains.

It sounds like the Senior Installer called in sick the day they covered the NEC grounding codes.

Antennae should be grounded to drain off built-up voltages, not lightning. Anything grounded well enough to draw lightning will become a lightning rod and you certainly don't want that.

While the NEC doesn't apply in all jurisdictions (just an unimaginably overwhelming number of them), few are taken to task for following their guidelines. On the other hand, many fines have been assessed and licenses/permits revoked for not following the NEC.

 

[SandFarmer]

Antennae should be grounded to drain off built-up voltages, not lightning. Anything grounded well enough to draw lightning will become a lightning rod and you certainly don't want that.

Even I knew that, but it did not seem to be something that was "factored" into the mindset of the install or as far as I could tell even thought of. AND he was a trainer too, with a Supervisor on site because of all the "unorthodox" idiosyncrasies of the install. Mainly my 40 foot fireplace/chimney that was only 3 feet on the roof side, but since they can't do roofs . . . so I stood on the roof and handed him the gear. I made his "proposed" 9 hour install, 3 at the most once I told him what we were going to do. After all that we were besties, which was partly convenient since he had to come back out three times to replace the nodes.

I have to have a re-aim here soon so I am going to wait until all the new stuff is out and see what they end up replacing with new tech. I'm praying that it will solve a lot of my problems. Then there are some problems that just can't be solved . . .

 

[kwindrem]

Defeating the safety ground is a SAFETY AND FIRE HAZARD. Take the cheater plug out of circuit and throw it in the trash! It's a bad and extremely unsafe practice even if it does solve problems. It's also illegal. Find other ways to resolve those problems.

Should there be a fault inside the Hopper, ground current will flow through cables connected to Hopper to other devices that are grounded. These paths are not intended to support 20+ amps of current that will flow until the circuit breaker fails so you'll blow up other gear in the process. If these are small cables, the circuit breaker will never blow and you have a red hot cable setting fire to everything it touches. Even the coax cable to the dish may not support fault currents.

In older homes that do not have grounded outlets, code allows for connecting devices with ground pins via a GFCI. Any fault current will trip the GFCI before it can damage gear or shock anyone.

 

[harshness]

AND he was a trainer too, with a Supervisor on site because of all the "unorthodox" idiosyncrasies of the install.

Reminds me of an old joke/lament about a certain HSP's installers: What do you call Brand M installer with two weeks under his belt?

Supervisor.

 

[StevenMark]

My thoughts are along the lines of several of you here: defeating the safety ground on the power cord is a bad idea.

These things I know:

• My house is properly wired with 4-wire service with the neutral bonded to the ground at the service entrance and nowhere else.
• There are no swapped hot/neutrals or hot/grounds anywhere. I tested all receptacles with a circuit tester plug.
• There are no “isolated grounds” anywhere on my property: all feeders to sub-panels are 4-wire.
• The dish antenna is on a metal pole about 3-feet in the ground, set in concrete. It is grounded through the 17awg wire that is part of the dual RG-6 cable, connected to a solo node which is connected directly to the service ground rod. It is about 30-feet from the dish antenna to the ground rod.

If the receiver was to have a serious short I suppose it would seek a path to ground through the cable shielding. If lucky, the shielding would hold up long enough to trip the breaker. If unlucky the shielding would burn through like a fuse, leaving 20 amps of current seeking another path to ground. Not pretty, not reliable.

I think once we’re past the holidays, I’ll eliminate that cheater plug. It just ain’t right.
I guess the reason the Joey/super comes from the factory with 2-prong plug (no ground) is it's double insulated thus not requiring a ground?

Thanks everyone and at the risk of offending someone, “Merry Christmas”.

 

[navychop]

Sorry. I meant DPP44.

My dish's are anchored in solid concrete on top of my chimney with a ground wire that is staked into the ground. And the rest of the gear is all grounded at the outlets where we have new sub panels all over with big a$$ grounding by code, and still the nodes kept frying. I thought all along that it was an "electrical" issue within the system itself.

I would think that using a Polarity Tester before plugging anything in would be the thing ya just do. Prior to the installation of one of the HwS, I found a wall outlet that had the polarity reversed. That was easy to fix, but I wanted to make sure that things were in proper order before the install.

If your dish ground and your service ground are not properly bonded then that could very well be your problem. I would disconnect the dish ground stake and just run the dish wires through a ground block at the point of entry bonded to the service ground.

Yeah, I smell a real potential difference here as a problem- and I'm certainly no electrician.

 

[kwindrem]

When I had my initial ViP to HwS "upgrade" done I had a DDP44 and two dish's that was golden for many years. After over the next few weeks the Node(s) kept burning out. So eventually I was told since Duo Nodes were so "expensive" that I would had to go with a single "new" 1.2 dish and lose the DDP44. Since I have had every rain and snow fade that could be had, my reception numbers are far lower than ever and many times tests have come back with Tuner 1 totaly dead. With the two dish set up I never had any issues.

There's absolutely no reason to believe a grounding issue was taking out the node. After all, any ground current would be flowing through coax SHIELDs and the case of the node and would never enter the node or any other device.

I have no explanation except for a bad run of nodes unless the DPP 44's power inserter was placed BEFORE the node. In which case, power for the DPP 44 would be applied to the node which might in fact burn it out. All installation drawings I have seen show the power inserter connected to the 4th port of the DPP 44 with the others feeding the node. The drawings show that port used for it's satellite signal only for a 211 connected to the same system.