Must be a reason for the Deep Colour and xvYCC compliant players?

JoeSp

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Seems there is a reason for the new Deep Colour and xvYCC players from both high def camps. Those new LED based LCDs we are going to be seeing this XMAS are providing the impetus. I wonder how long before someone other then a game designer decides to put out a movie using this newer colour gamut. Perhaps the first ones will be animated ones.

If not then why would even the HD-DVD group be supporting this new colour gamut? As the technology improves in flat panel tvs so does the platforms providing the data.

xvYCC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are several nice links for those of you who would like to know more about this new technology.
 
Did you have too much to drink before the long weekend or is this just another F*ck-the-Facts sermon?

Who is talking about xvYCC players? Who ever was talking about them in the realm of HD/BD?
Both are castrated 8-bit 4:2:0. And always will be. When xvYCC movies are released they won't play on standalone HD/BD players and won't be allow to carry their logos.

To make it a bit easier to grasp: BD standalone players that don't have the SIGMA 8634 RevC chip can't be upgraded to profile 1.1 no matter how blu in face you get. Here is the proof from your FtF party headquarters:
Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - New Sony BD player, BDP-S300

Same with the color space - nobody can handle anything above 8-bit 4:2:0.

Now, just like Sony finance tsar is no authority to you, tell everybody that Keith Jack doesn't know squat in Sigma chips and we can call it a day...

Diogen.
 
I am not talking about players sold in the past but the newer players currently coming out. The top Toshiba HD-DVD players support xvYCC and so do most of the next generation BD players. Since these standalones do not play games (as in the past you are wont to point out that game designers are the only ones that would use this spec) there must be a reason for supporting a colour gamut that newer flat panels are going to be able to provide.

Stop being a smuck and look at the bright side, someone somewhere in Toshiba land and Sony land and Samsung land are seeing a reason to move in this direction. If true, then we could in the short future (next 1 to 2 years) see product providing a wider colour gamut for our eyes.

Why does this bunch up your shorts so much?
 
Sorry Joe,

Although nice in theory, deep color will not be happening with either BD or HDDVD like Diogen said. Here is a clip from an article on why HDMI 1.3 isn't necessary:

Certainly, a higher speed of data transmission may prove useful for computer applications, but has little benefit for Blu-ray or HD DVD. All previous versions of HDMI have more than sufficient bandwidth to carry 1080p High Definition video along with uncompressed multi-channel PCM audio without issue. For home theater purposes, there's no gain here.

Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for "x.v.Color™" (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.

Now here's something that sure sounds impressive. Who wouldn't want a greater color range in their HD video, especially when it's marketed with a sexy name like "Deep Color" that boasts of delivering billions of new color shades "beyond the capability of the human eye to perceive them"? Wow, that must be great! Of course, it begs the question of what use many of those colors are if it's impossible for human beings to ever see them, but hey let's not get bogged down in semantics.

Yes, as terrific of a High Definition picture as we're getting now, the occasional color banding artifact will still intrude into a Blu-ray or HD DVD picture. This is something that Deep Color or the less flashily-named xvYCC standards might improve by smoothing the gradients between color shades with a greater range of intermediary colors. That's a worthy upgrade, but here's the problem: Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray support xvYCC or Deep Color, and never will. Those features are beyond the spec of either format.

Really muddying the waters on this issue is the fact that both the HD DVD and Blu-ray camps have been advertising Deep Color in their higher-end hardware, such as the recent press release from Toshiba declaring that the upcoming "top-of-the-line HD-A35 also adds support for Deep Color via HDMI, allowing compatible display devices to deliver outstanding video quality - displaying millions of possible colors to billions of possible colors."

"Doesn't that announcement flat-out state that the HD-A35 player will offer Deep Color? It sure seems to, but the wording is misleading. While the player itself may "support" Deep Color, in order for Deep Color to work it must be enabled in the player (possible), enabled in the television (possible), and the disc must be authored to include all of those billions of extra colors. That last one's the problem. The video encoded on HD DVD discs (and Blu-rays too) is limited to 8-bit color. So are the studio archive masters, for that matter. If some studio were to start authoring new discs with 16-bit Deep Color, those discs would be completely incompatible with the majority of existing players, rendering them unplayable. Such a disc would have to be labeled and marketed as an all-new Deep Color HD DVD or Deep Color Blu-ray format, and distinguished from the regular HD DVD or Blu-ray formats, discs for which would have to be released separately. Imagine the marketing nightmare! And for what gain? At its best, you'd get a barely-perceptible improvement in color fidelity. Yes, from a videophile perspective, even small improvements are welcome. I'd personally love to see it implemented. Ideally, both formats should have been designed with Deep Color from the start, but that isn't the way it worked out, and it's too late to change either format to incorporate it now. To do so would make no business sense whatsoever. Sorry, that's just not going to happen.

Long story short, even if you have a brand new HDTV that can actually render all of those billions of new colors (most can't), and even if you have HDMI 1.3 connections on both ends and every piece of equipment in-between, you'll simply never get those colors from a Blu-ray or HD DVD source. Maybe in some other type of product (like an HD camcorder or video game) or some future movie format, but not from HD DVD or Blu-ray. If you're in the market to buy a new HDTV, it might be a good idea to future-proof it by ensuring that it supports HDMI 1.3 and Deep Color, but in the here-and-now they aren't necessary."

Full link here:

High-Def FAQ: Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary? | High-Def Digest

S~
 
Sounds to me like one Blu-ray disc could have two versions of the movie- regular & "deep." No?
 
To add to the discussion:

Home Theater: xvYCC and Deep Color

Ultimate AV: Musings on HDMI 1.3 Video

Widescreen Review Webzine DVD Reviews, Home Theater Equipment Reviews, Theatre Setup Audio Video Equipment

From the above I have learned that movie masters are 10-bit. There are camcorders currently on the market that support xvYCC. That there are 10-bit projectors on the market. That even with the space on a 50gb BD discs there might not be enough room for even a 10-bit movie with the inclusion of a lossless audio track.

And after reading all that no where was there the suggestion that in the future (perhaps with the next medium) that we would not see 10-bit source material. If indeed the new codecs VC-1 and MPEG4 and the improved encoders constantly saving space might there not be a time when it would become possible to have a studio produce a 10-bit product?

As for earlier equipment could not the product be backwards compatible thru the player that is doing the decoding?

I ask these questions because of all the new technology currently on the horizon xvYCC seems to bring the biggest bang to home video aside from the ablilty to view HD from a BD or HD-DVD player.
 
Last two sentences:
Apparently, now that there is a way to transfer it, studios and manufacturers are both getting more interested in xvYCC and Deep Color. So, in other words, these are great ideas with lots of promise that we may see, but not any time soon.
From the above I have learned that movie masters are 10-bit.
I quoted insiders saying this a while ago:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/hd-dvd-...nnounce-br-support-tomorrow-2.html#post967810
That even with the space on a 50gb BD discs there might not be enough room for even a 10-bit movie with the inclusion of a lossless audio track.
Some 2 years ago a Broadcom insider on AVS claimed that compressing a 10-bit 4:2:2 stream is easier than 8-bit 4:2:0 and it certainly won't take more space. This, as well as 4:2:2 offers much more noticable improvement in picture quality than 10 bit (or maybe anything above 10 bit). Nobody challenged his statement.
...(perhaps with the next medium) that we would not see 10-bit source material.
Next medium - packaged or streamed - will most probably be more than 10 bit. As long as there is an appropriate master.
...might there not be a time when it would become possible to have a studio produce a 10-bit product?.
After the encoders are rewritten, workflow changed, etc. - maybe. And do with them what?
As for earlier equipment could not the product be backwards compatible thru the player that is doing the decoding?
Not with the ones on the market today.

Diogen.
 
Diogen, I just saw my first 10bit panels 10bit processor LCD this weekend. Maybe there will not be any 10bit product source(other then camcorders) for awhile but there is definately more definition on the 10bit panels then the 8 bit panels. One set I viewed was the new Sony XBR5 (10 bit panel) side by side with a Sony Bravia (8 Bit panel) and the differance was very noticable. Also viewed a new Sony Bravia 10bit panel 46" LCD and its picture was quite stunning while viewing a BD movie.

Also to reply to two of your statements:

After the encoders are rewritten, workflow changed, etc. - maybe. And do with them what?

Sell them to those that have equipment.

Not with the ones on the market today.

All products currently being sold as supporting xvYCC must have the ability to not only pass 10bit but decode 10bit. It is part of the standard. (And this means the PS3 is cable of doing this). This also includes the new BD and HD-DVD players that are being announce as supporting this new international standard. We will all eventually upgrade to a HD players capable of providing these features -- hence the market will be there to be tapped again in another 5 years.
 
Maybe there will not be any 10bit product source(other then camcorders) for awhile...
Exactly.
The only statement I ever made discussing this issue with you.
Just like regular DVDs were never more than 720x480, never anything else but MPEG-2, never more than 19.2 Mbps...
All products currently being sold as supporting xvYCC must have the ability to not only pass 10bit but decode 10bit. It is part of the standard. (And this means the PS3 is cable of doing this).
Yes. The PS3 can do it, a PC can do it, a camcorder can do it.
The material has to have it. HD/BD doesn't.
This also includes the new BD and HD-DVD players that are being announce as supporting this new international standard.
Players - possibly. HD/BD movies - not.
We will all eventually upgrade to a HD players capable of providing these features...
Could be if this is not the last optical format.
HD/BD won't be it.

Diogen.
 

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